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tbh this industry is so notorious for people getting ripped off i'm surprised anyone is still bothering to come up with new ideas. i did buy an og odin, because i knew i wanted one and at the time the clones hadn't hit the market yet. touch wood it's never let me down and if it ever does i'll buy another legit one because to me the performance is well worth the money. it's a tricky balance, we need this hobby to be accessible, and that does mean on price. not everyone has the luxury of boatloads of disposable income to throw at what boils down to a bunch of toys. and maybe someone who buys a cheap clone thing might well decide they like the idea enough to buy a genuine one when the clone breaks. however, silver makes a very strong point that nobody will want to innovate in an industry where they know not even patents will save them from getting ripped off left right and centre, i can only imagine how shitty it must feel to pour your heart and soul into a product only to see your business fall flat out of the gate under a wave of cheap knock off's. end of the day everyone's going to make their own choice, for their own reasons, and there's damn all chatting about it on an internet forum is going to do to it.

Wait, so are we officially adding Odin to "Dreamers of the Week"?

And all you had to do to save the cash was undercut the actual inventor and stifle innovation. Bargain! Those clones are the reason that we never got factory-supported magazine adaptors and it took 5 years and counting for new models to come to market. If they'll continue to prioritise the cheapest possible product at the expense of innovation and quality, airsofters really have no-one but themselves to blame when they get sold shitty, obsolete products that don't work properly out of the box or break shortly thereafter. It's not a coincidence that in 1995 a mobile phone looked like this and in 2020 looks like this, but a 2020 M4 AEG gearbox looks exactly the same as a 1995 one. It's not a coincidence that local airsoft retailers are going out of business (especially in the States) because people would rather save a paltry amount of money than support any actual customer service. It's not a coincidence that Magpul withdrew from their partnership with PTS in disgust and as a result we can't get PDR-Cs or FPGs any more. There is a direct link between people forcing manufacturers into a race to the bargain basement and manufacturers not having any incentive to make innovative products. The "I would never pay £x for x, so they haven’t lost a sale by me purchasing a rip-off" argument sucked when it applied to pirating music, films and videogames and it sucks here. People buying it is the reason it’s produced. The entitlement of "I want it, but I don’t want to pay for it" is frustrating. It apparently cost TM $1m in 2008 dollars to develop the NGRS system; how are they supposed to recoup the first significant investment in AEG design since they invented the AEG if consumers set an arbitrary limit of "no more than twice the cost of a bargain basement clone of your old gun"? It’s especially irritating with straight clones like the M12 because the clone literally doesn’t do even one single thing better than the original, except be cheap and poorly made. Even CYMA have improved over TM in important ways like having metal receivers. I fully support and will buy things that obviously borrow heavily from an existing design if it’s improved - I’ll happily buy an VFC, because even though it’s mostly a TM clone they’ve massively improved it by making it steel and wood rather than plastic and plastic. This is all far from unique to the Sidewinder, it’s just especially annoying because it’s not the property of some huge faceless corporation. It’s literally one guy who designed an amazing product, put in a truly astonishing amount of his own money and time developing it, getting it manufactured, dealing it to distributors etc., and all so it could get ripped off and sold for profit by massive companies inside six months. At this stage it’s hard to tell if we deserve innovation. Anyway, apologies for dragging the thread off topic.

I thought Donald Trump was the only one with a knock-off tan? 🤣

Just got this in the mail

Asks that. Consider whether the "seller" really wants to shift it, or whether they're just doing it for form's sake. They're not magic, offer half the new price. Or just buy a CYMA and outrange them.

I totally get the point. Think I’ll Lower the price. 👌🏻😁

Have a view of thier youtube reviews, then compare them to literally any other reviewer. You wont get much from JBBG other than "great gun, great power" IIRC

Short answer; yes. Longer answer; you get what you pay for. They sell some branded stuff, and if you buy branded itll likely be the same as if youd bought it from anywhere else, except it seems more expensive from them. However its the cheap "SUPER ELECTRIC POWER HIGH SPEED M4!" for £24.99 that will be utterly cheap garbage shite. Theres also loads of reviews slating them for piss poor communication/customer support/service.

Off topic is the best topic. First, I didn't know that there was a "real" Odin when I got my knock off, I just heard about these magic "side winder" loaders, and ordered by cheapest on eBay. Brand recognition and marketing is Odin's to buy, or not. Second, well, yes, I am too cheap to pay £50 for an Odin loader. Really, no way, no how. Odin wasn't getting my money anyway. Likewise, TM didn't lose out because I bought a CYMA. If the cheapest toy gnus were £400, I'd never have got into this hobby in the first place.

I have a tan knock-off.

Perst-4 from Zenitco landed today.

Not a RIF, but I just ordered a set of BULLE US woodland and woodland marpat (trousers, shirt and boonie), as well as a molle drop leg platform. Also a chicom chest rig for an upcoming Vietnam game, because why would I want to play as the Americans when VC sounds like so much more fun. It's my first ever Vietnam game

Is it a 'Lee-Armalite' or an 'AR No.1' ?

I mean £565 plus £100-160 equals £665-725, and £500 is 75% of £665 and 69% of £725. 70-75% of RRP for a gun with less than one bottle of BBs through it isn't even all that high, although I would probably expect to receive more like 65-70% simply based on how much returns diminish after £400. I think you might also be forgetting to factor in the high cost of quality accessories which are usually included with NGRS packages. Taking this Delta as an example: Gun ~£550 Grip ~£20 Magazines ~£25ea. ODIN M12 Sidewinder ~£50 (assuming it's genuine, and I'm not sure there are tan fakes) IMAX B6 ~£35 Four batteries ~£50 That's £880, of which the £500 asking price is 57%. If he split the magazines, speedloader and charger off as separate items he'd be asking the equivalent of £341 for the gun and the batteries, which I would describe as "acutely reasonable".

I ended up ordering this one: https://gpairsoft-uk.com/shop/en/53289-gp-dd-mk18-front-set-for-marui-mws-m4a1-gbb-black-gp-mws014a.html it’s good quality and fits well, but the flash hider thread is 14mm clockwise (not counter clockwise like everything else) So your choice of flash hiders is limited or you need to get a converter.

The AEG Rails can fit. You just need one of the adaptor rings to secure.

The Mk18 front rail is now few and far between, I got lucky with mine. Last place I got one was Daves Custom airsoft. And they are now out of stock. (Just checked) Nuprol made one, but are out of production and stock almost every where. You're gunna be hard pressed to find a front rail new. The Madbull rail fits the MWS even if it states its only for AEG. As that is what mine is.

Managed to finally get my hands on a KWA Kriss Vector from @KingZi and with some help from @rocketdogbert both absolutely stand up guys. And good god is it fun snappy and cool but goddam is it heavy 😂, I think I am going to have to start hitting the gym again just to be able to run it for a game🤣. Also, it looks sexy as hell

Someone please make this

Managed to play today.... finally, took long enough!!!! Had a Great time at Red Alert, managed to renew my UkARA and sorted out my membership! 😁 @Dino been a while, but still got the skills to prove it! 🔫😎👍 💷GAMBLE💷

Depends what they've had doing to them. I've put £1600 in to my SCAR....