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Milsim is a very broad term, you've got the sort of stuff that gunman and ambush adventures do where it's essentially a well organised skirmish with team kit colours all the way up to stirling and tier1 games where you start at midnight with a full brief followed by a dawn assault to take your team's 'FOB' (if you're on the good guy team that is) followed by 36-48 hours of game without programmed breaks and no safe zone. The former I would say is eminently suitable as a starting point for any airsofter, the latter normally takes a bit of working up to as the kit requirement is normally a bit more substantial (Bashas, ground mats, cooking kit, a couple of working guns in case your main one breaks, night vision, etc). That said, the only elitism I have EVER experienced in airsoft is reverse snobbery where guys have had a good old chuckle at the idiot who spent £2k on night vision to play soldiers. Each to their own I say!

Why do people have this belief that TM internals are better? They don't spend more on the internals, they don't spend a great deal, full stop. The only reason they last so long is because the lighter weight of the moving parts puts a lot less stress on everything. You put TM parts in a WE or a SA and they'll break at the same rate the WE or SA parts will. (I've done it) They're not better, they're just under less stress. With a TM you get longevity over all else, they aren't better for range or accuracy, I really don't understand where that myth comes from - TM fanboyism no doubt. TM is better for cold weather performance and gas efficiency, which again is just due to the lighter parts, but in my opinion you miss out on the satisfaction of metal on metal noises and heavier recoil. Plus it just feels like a bit of a con to buy a plastic gun that feels like a £5 springer but spend more on it than I would on something that feels a lot better. TM's plastics are horrible. I like taking things to bits and fiddling with them, so if you're like me, I'd advise getting a cheaper, better feeling, metal pistol, learning how it works and upgrading parts to steel as they fail. The WE also has CO2 mags available for winter use so the TM working better in the cold becomes a moot point. You can also make the WE just as snappy, if not more so, by using a stronger recoil spring and CO2 more generally. Though the snappiness of the recoil is again, in my opinion at least, a moot point, because even when it's less snappy than a TM, it still cycles faster than you can fire it.

Can't help noticing that there are many new players on here, which is always healthy. Got me thinking about some of the prejudices and preconceptions that new players have about milsim games when they have just experienced skirmishing. I must start by saying that I have met some dyed-in-the-wool milsimmers who have very "pure" views about milsims. In fact, we have experienced prejudice from established milsim players who say that you have to be wearing specific real world kit and only 2 or 3 day continuous games are worth doing. Everybody is entitled to their view and there are milsin organisers that cater for this need. Our games were deliberately designed for players who didn't subscribe to this. On our first game, we had people who had never played airsoft before and rented from us. They followed the loadout rules, played as rebels and had a fine old time. They brought their imaginations and really that was all that was really needed. In subsequent games, we find a lot of players have never done any milsim before. Last game, we had more milsim virgins and they are coming back for the next game. A lot of skirmishers get the idea that milsim is deadly serious and you have to salute and call people sir and wear about 2k worth of real steel gucchi gear. T'aint so !!

They do spend more time on the tolerances of all of their guns, and this is true to the point that they do make the most accurate pistols out of the box. People love to hate TM because they think they know something everyone else doesn't and like to feel happy that the WE they were sold over the counter at their local shop is the best there is. Unfortunately, it's really as simple as they know what they're doing, they've done it the longest and they do it the best. When you're so tightly constrained by the Japanese airsoft power limits, you have to be good. Gas efficiency obviously matters a lot there (what with the green gas restrictions), and that's a large reason as to why they use plastic slides. The real fact of the matter is that retailers make a much larger margin of profit on WE and KWA and so selling them is great. Prices on TM guns have always been managed right out of the factory and everyone gets the same price. WE is more popular in the UK because it's cheaper; people like them because they own them and because they use a bit more metal. Let's not forget that the majority of companies simply clone their designs too - that's how good they are at doing what they do. I'd never tell someone to spend more than they're comfortable with spending, but if you have £150 and want the absolute best performance, part compatibility and longevity then TM is who you go for. If you then want to dump a load of money on a metal kit then do so, but you can't have your cake and eat it - metal slides will always slow down your cycle time and produce more wear and even more so if it's a soft metal that will scratch very easily and not stay lubricated for long. When it comes to range and accuracy: Yes, they do. The barrels are generally of a higher quality and the internal tolerances are far greater than those of other brands. They simply are more accurate and do go further. Not by a whole lot, but they do. If it makes you feel happier with your purchase by thinking it performs as well as the original TM design then that's fine, but it's false. There's a reason why the TM Hi-Capa is the most popular competition pistol. If you don't like the plastic feeling then buy a metal kit. And saying TM's plastics are 'horrible' is absolutely ludicrous when they have some of the best looking finishes out there: I'd say Stark Arms is better than WE, but (unsurprisingly) I'd maintain that TM is better than both performance wise.

Here are some photos from our games at the two sites: Kings Langley and Eversley

Thanks very much ill be sure to pick up an ICS version then!.

Nothing wrong with vfc pistols

The BRDM happened just after Op Tailspin and it now lives at Kings Langley and gets wheeled out for special events.

Have you looked in the review section?? There is my g18c aep review

Have you played any games at all yet ? If you are buying a two tone weapon to get into airsoft, its worth playing a game or two to look whats others are doing and formulate what you need. Its easy to buy kit and have to replace it because you dont like it or its wrong for your game style. Just take it slowly. Loadouts get built up - it doesnt happen overnight.

You go to any field and dress like that, the owner will ask you to take that off quickly or will just send you home because his paying customers will be offended and won't come and pay next time.

For me the main attraction to milsim is real cap magazines and friend or foe identification by sight (without bright colours). I just love reload drills.

Pdi W hold is good but don't expect it to lift anything heavier than .30s,even at 380 FPS I struggled to get it to lift it straight. (NB- It might be my hop setup,but a lad I know here in Ukraine was also running a similar VSR hop as I am, only at 450 FPS,also had issues lifting heavy ammo) From what I vaguely remember about what parts am bestest,the Action army hop up chamber has gotten rave reviews and a lot of people vouch for the Maple leaf bucking,firefly bucking is also good. Action army parts have gotten very good recently,much cheaper and equal quality to laylax analogs. Avoid PDi hop chambers as they're a bitch to tune properly. Also check out PDi barrels,get them cheapest from Xfire.org. They're largely said to be the best of the best,especially their tightbores. Stock trigger system on VSRs isn't worth keeping unless you're restricted to 1J builds. Action army trigger is good. Remember you need a 90* piston too but most triggers come bundled with one,at least AA and Laylax do.

Yeah but the rebels were being funded by the Americans at one point. Where did all those AKs come from in the handshaking photo on the M25 thread ??

Get a Mancraft kit if you can. This reads like an advertisement. The fact of the matter is green gas is always susceptible to varying weather. I would never use a sniper rifle powered by anything other than CO2, HPA or spring - consistency will always be sub-par. DMRs, well, that's a different story.

SVD's are lovely rifles and quite a few of our regulars use them. Lots of choice on the market from springers up to the gucchi Real Sword. They are very long to handle so aren't that mobile and they look a bit naked without an optic - the decent Russian clone optics are quite expensive.

sorry - no offense but kinda warrants it a bit:

No there isnt and as an intelligent person you seem to be ignoring the 6 million Jewish people (as well an as gypsies & atrisans) who were killed or worked to death in the camps of WW2 which this person is reprisenting during a "fun" days skirmishing. And you seem to jump on this fact fact as somethig worth noting? I believe your sense of scale in terms of this conversation is out of kilter. For instance during one of our skirmish days a group turned up dressed as power rangers, ironman & Captain America. All in unpadded lycra bright coloured outfits. They instantly became a prefered target for the day, at times being hit from multiple directions all at once. Although you seem a little offended by their suffering they did in fact put themselves in that situation on purpose.Its was top fun. I'm afraid this is simular to what I posted above but the differance is these people were copying fun fictional characters. the OP is asking about a uniform & wearing insignia's of a troop of people who were hand picked from the ranks of the third reich because of their extreme right wing views. Left unchecked they commited one of the most horrific attricities ever recorded in the history of mankind and he is choosing to create this loadout for fun ? Airsoft is a sport where pain is inflicted on your victim. You may be in the wrong sport if you are worried about causing suffering on others (or even worse encouraging others to do so), and you may need some private time to consider if the deaths of millions of men women and children is as noteworthy as a few bruises caused on someone during an airsoft skirmish.

ICS all the way! if you want a few pointers or extra info join the SA80 Owners group on facebook, lots of guys on there very happy to help

I've got a we glock 17 and really like it. I don't use it as much as i want so gas efficiency isn't a worry for me. The recoil makes up for having to spend an extra few quid on gas anyway. If your going to get one then don't get it from action hobbies. It is my local store and i like it but it's much cheaper elsewhere.

Ah ok. Yeh, just grab the Madbull ones then. They're fine.

Another great thread, linking a few buddies to this one to build my case for booking us into an event. One of the problems is everyone in the group rocking the same camo. There's about 10 or so of us and are all only just building our arsenal and kit up. Got to prioritise because you can't buy it all instantly!

Cheers Lozart for the heads-up on the offer. I purchased a Warrior Falcon chest rig from UK Tactical for £53.95, so great value. Excellent customer service.

For reenactment purposes and in the right scenario it'd be perfectly acceptable to wear an SS uniform. To your local skirmish site for a Sunday walk-on? Very bad taste, you're asking for trouble, I'd certainly think you were a bit of a dick.

If you ever fancy a Cold 1911 style pistol, avoid WE's 1911s at all costs. Other than that most brands bar VFC and Ares are OK.

£110 for a CYMA MP5 SD6 is a pretty good price for it. They're well known for good quality AK's and crap M4's, not completely sure about MP5's or EBB's though. In that price bracket the other main options are G&G M4 Combat machines, ICS M4 sportlines, CYMA AK's and JG G36C's. Depends what sort of thing you're after really.

Symbolism of genocide isnt something you should display without expecting reactions. wearing it isnt good idea. beating people up has never been implied or encouraged by me or anyone (Neither homosexual or anyone else) as a matter of fact I would defend anyone who was being attacked for who they are, their actions, thats something else that is bigger than an airsoft forum. If you turn up in brightly coloured lycra to a skirmish your gonna get shot, thats because your easy to spot & the players wearing the outfits knew that. In a way thats why they wore their kit. I spent the day chatting to them in the safe zone and although they ended the day battered and brusied they were treat with friendship like they always would be. on one would beat them up or do something horrible to them & why would they ? Deliberately wearing a uniform that can & will cause offense.....sorry I cant see that ending well. The OP asked for opinions & thats what he got. If you want to argue all day, do so but it wont change anything. I think your making more presumptions than your letting on tbh and thats your perogative. I've said my piece and people seem to be agreeing with what I said.As far as i know I've never encouraged anyone to break the law and wouldnt anyway. you dont have to say sorry for being argumentative but it obvious that you are (But thanks for the PM anyway). Just to clarify I dont condone beating anyone up or attacking someone for being themselves, but going out and doing something that is pretty stupid (like wearing an SS uniform and signifying all that it connected with) and causing offence to others isnt a good idea, because no one can really say what would happen. An opionion was asked for & was given. Going on & on really isnt something I see as being useful

Agreed. Okto is somewhere in the middle of those extremes. We do play by full milsim rules and there are no breaks or safe zone. Our games last eight hours and once you are in the battle area, you do everything there and carry everything with you into the game zone (no access to car boots allowed). This gives players a flavour and they have to plan and think about kit. I think I once amused one of the Tier 1 guys by describing Okto as the nursery slopes for them. I wish I could afford to spend two grand on NVG. Would be pretty pointless though as we dont do night games.

Role playing with airsoft guns is the best description for the Okto Games. Its a lot of fun because of it as well. Most of the MDF (Government) team was just in DPMs or Flaktarn with a simple rifle and chest rig or plate carrier. The biggest irony was that the rebels seemed to have the more gucci kit then us...

On the basis that a picture speaks a thousand words and all that, I've put some photos up in the M25 thread. Big grins all round. The rebel leader enjoyed being searched by the special forces guys a little too much for my liking though !!!

Aye some of kit I used in Afghanistan would make some dyed in the wool Milsim types choke on their webtex cam cream it was so unregulation. I'm looking forward to trying it out mind you once I have a bit more kit and experience in game.

Our games are weekend games. Bear in mind that we dont allow two tone weapons and we still have a minimum age of 13 when playing with a parent. In saying that, we have people flying in from Denmark and Germany for our next game. We are exporting airsoft product to help the UK with their balance of payments ! not many people doing that!

Although I can see your point and it is valid. The SS was not a fighting unit, they were a close protection unit (At the beginning) and developed into a unit that carried out operations like the taking of asset's & the organisation of forced labour camps. Wearing a soldiers uniform I suppose is not the issue, its the replication and wearing of a uniform of a unit that was specifically used for the liquidation of countries economic structures and the disolvement of a race of people and captive soldiers, for instance Auschwitz-Birkenau was origionally designed to store and liquidate Russian soldiers it was designed to cause maximum suffering to its inhabitants, the idea was to accelorate that spread of infection and disease. In effect the act to create a horrible slow and agonising death for the inhabitants. And the unit used to carry out brutal security to these facilities ? Yes the SS because of their brutal MO. The SS unit was specific unit to fill a specific roll, none of these related to being a fighting role. Although it could be argues that all airsoft skirmishers do in fact dress like trained killers, noone dresses like a operative trained specifically for the mass killings of innocents & defenseless people. I hope i'm comng across as none argumentative, I just want to clarify the differance between the Third Reich and the SS. I hope the thread has become informative and answers the OP's question adequately.

We have a 16 years old limit unless players come with a guardian/parent but Gunman, our sister organisation have a 13-year old limit I think for their games.

Not sure why you'd go for one over the TM given the price is near identical. They don't perform quite as well out of the box, but the external finish is supposed to be slightly better on the later batches.

This is why us airsofters can't have nice things. I can just imagine the press *shudders*

Hi everyone just recently started airsofting and im hooked! Have had a fair few sessions now in a local cqb site and just cant get enough of it. Just waiting on my UKARA now and then going to set about heading to a skirmish after I settle on a gun. I was considering a MP5 but my local site recently got a 'CYMA Blackwater M4 CQB' and its seriously tempting me. Would suit the smaller CQB games im mainly playing and give me a bit more reach for when I finally do hit the skirmishes. Would anyone have any experience by chance using that M4? Would it be alright for a beginner? (I've only used their rental AKs and M16s so far. I prefer the slightly more compact feel of the AKs and sights but dam I have got awful luck with their mags so thats put me off them altogether. Budget wise im flexible dont want to go too insane on my first gun though but willing to pay for reliability.) Thanks for any advice and just wanna say the forum is great!

Honestly? Several attempts that failed, a lot of swearing and one final almost perfect one. Like I said, personal preference.

Some sites get a bit twitchy about CO2 guns. You might find some resistance.

think that is coz they regard 18+ as being responsible enough to understand med mind you I've seen plenty of irresponsible adults to be fair - not sure where I fit in

get the cocking handle aid for svd and that is one long mofo @ 1.2m scope - if you go for authentic one ain't cheap (wtf - its your toy gun use what ya want) often barrels in there may be 550-590 max but good thing is the bolt svd's use aeg springs aeg svd still come with full auto and semi - well mine did tbh - get an ak with 455-469mm tbb barrel on the 349.99fps limit running well - think you will kick a few M4 ar$es LOL - just beat me to some of the svd stuff

Now that's food for thought. I was thinking a SVD as they are lovely looking and there is a good variety of them about. Cheers for the reply!

Depends on what you plan to do with a DMR. Its a half way house between an ordinary assault rifle and a sniper rifle. If you are going to have it locked to single shot and be the subject of a minimum engagement distance anyway, you could argue that you might as well just go to a full bolt action sniper rifle. If the role of carrying a DMR in a squad appeals, then you might just as well stick to the normal fps limits and make your rifle a cosmetic DMR. An increasing number of sites are asking for "real world" DMRs, so you couldn't just put a high power scope on an MP5. This is slightly contentious, especially amongst skirmish sites. We only do milsim, so we ask players to enter into the spirit by trying to adopt a rifle type that is used in the real world as a DMR. We have a 420fps limit with MED of 30m and rifles have to be semi only.

Personally I wouldn't buy barrel spacers - they're easy to make with stuff from around the house. One of mine is made from a coke bottle lid for example. Takes a bit of work but saves you money.

There is a for sale section on here mate & you'll need to post photos with your user name & date on some paper

Were you in airsoft zone last Tuesday??? I think I was chatting to you and your mate while I was there.

This is one of those times where you have to carefully consider what other people's feelings and emotions will be, based in your own actions. Choosing to dress as an officer of the SS WILL cause offence to other people as you will be a physical representation of the atrocities that were commited. Even if you don't mean any offence, it will be caused. If I was you I'd do some research into what the SS did and I don't mean just read Wikipedia. Go to the library, get some books out and learn what happens. The SS commited many many attrociates killing innocents, including women and children, simply based on their beliefs. Crimes so horrendous that they cannot and should not be forgotten. I very much doubt you will want to wear an SS Uniform once you see what they represent, regardless of how smart or stylish they look.

I've got a TM HC P90 and never found the trigger an issue as it's not 2 stage. Is an excellent little gun, only issue is it's easy to over-wind and wear out the hi-cap mags and if you do so can get occasional feeding issue requiring you to quickly remove and wind it a couple times again.

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