Macks airsoft dreamers of the week thread

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, AlphaBear said:

still commands around £500'ish

 

Asks that.

 

Consider whether the "seller" really wants to shift it, or whether they're just doing it for form's sake.

 

They're not magic, offer half the new price.  Or just buy a CYMA and outrange them.

[PureSilver]

4 hours ago, AlphaBear said:

Why are used TM recoils so expensive... more so the HK variants? For example a used Delta say 1 one year old which has had say 40 mags through it with a mozzie still commands around £500'ish. I mean the gun is new for around £565 and granted a mozzie could set you back £120 -150 if you go for a titan advanced that is.... What gives?

 

I mean £565 plus £100-160 equals £665-725, and £500 is 75% of £665 and 69% of £725. 70-75% of RRP for a gun with less than one bottle of BBs through it isn't even all that high, although I would probably expect to receive more like 65-70% simply based on how much returns diminish after £400.

 

I think you might also be forgetting to factor in the high cost of quality accessories which are usually included with NGRS packages. Taking this Delta as an example:

• Gun ~£550
• Grip ~£20
• Magazines ~£25ea.
• ODIN M12 Sidewinder ~£50 (assuming it's genuine, and I'm not sure there are tan fakes)
• IMAX B6 ~£35
• Four batteries ~£50

That's £880, of which the £500 asking price is 57%. If he split the magazines, speedloader and charger off as separate items he'd be asking the equivalent of £341 for the gun and the batteries, which I would describe as "acutely reasonable".

[AlphaBear]

7 hours ago, PureSilver said:

 

I mean £565 plus £100-160 equals £665-725, and £500 is 75% of £665 and 69% of £725. 70-75% of RRP for a gun with less than one bottle of BBs through it isn't even all that high, although I would probably expect to receive more like 65-70% simply based on how much returns diminish after £400.

 

I think you might also be forgetting to factor in the high cost of quality accessories which are usually included with NGRS packages. Taking this Delta as an example:

• Gun ~£550
• Grip ~£20
• Magazines ~£25ea.
• ODIN M12 Sidewinder ~£50 (assuming it's genuine, and I'm not sure there are tan fakes)
• IMAX B6 ~£35
• Four batteries ~£50

That's £880, of which the £500 asking price is 57%. If he split the magazines, speedloader and charger off as separate items he'd be asking the equivalent of £341 for the gun and the batteries, which I would describe as "acutely reasonable".

 

Based on your logic and using that example as an example it's actually a fair price for the whole package.. ideally you'd be looking at no more than 60% value for a used AEG (dependant on age/use) I hazard to guess.  Oh and I expect upgrades are only worth something if you as the buyer want them and deem them worthy... If you spend £600 kitting out your new AEG with superpower type upgrades and then expect a 2nd hand buyer to pay say £400 for them I think your expectation will be ill founded.  

 

It's just coincidence that advert turned up in the classified lol

[Rogerborg]

11 hours ago, PureSilver said:

ODIN M12 Sidewinder ~£50 (assuming it's genuine, and I'm not sure there are tan fakes)

 

I have a tan knock-off.

[PureSilver]

9 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

I have a tan knock-off.

 

Shame. Odin is a one-man band developing awesome, innovative products. He quit airsoft product development for about five years after people took his brilliant design and immediately cloned it so cheapskates could save themselves £20. I have absolutely no doubt that this sort of thing contributes to the generally stagnant nature of airsoft technology.

 

5 minutes ago, SgtTalbert said:

If its tan its fake as per above.

 

Really? I wouldn't have thought iWholesales would sell fakes, but I've been wrong before. They're certainly priced like the real thing.

[SgtTalbert]

3 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I have a tan knock-off.

 

If its tan its fake as per above.

 

To my knowledge, only legit colours are Black, Red, Blue and Smokey 

[SgtTalbert]

13 minutes ago, PureSilver said:

 

Shame. Odin is a one-man band developing awesome, innovative products. He quit airsoft product development for about five years after people took his brilliant design and immediately cloned it so cheapskates could save themselves £20. I have absolutely no doubt that this sort of thing contributes to the generally stagnant nature of airsoft technology.

 

 

Really? I wouldn't have thought iWholesales would sell fakes, but I've been wrong before. They're certainly priced like the real thing.

 

Ah stand corrected - thats an old model though (still as good) but all new stuff has tippmann on and comes with the built in silencer

 

Iwholesales do sell fake odins though

[AlphaBear]

52 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I have a tan knock-off.

I thought Donald Trump was the only one with a knock-off tan? 🤣

[Cr0-Magnon]

17 hours ago, AlphaBear said:

Why are used TM recoils so expensive... more so the HK variants? For example a used Delta say 1 one year old which has had say 40 mags through it with a mozzie still commands around £500'ish. I mean the gun is new for around £565 and granted a mozzie could set you back £120 -150 if you go for a titan advanced that is.... What gives?

 

Depends what they've had doing to them. I've put £1600 in to my SCAR....

[E21A]

 

1 hour ago, PureSilver said:

 

 

 could save themselves £20.
 

 

it’s a lot more than £20 though, I paid £35 total for 3 including delivery From coronavirusland 

 

[PureSilver]

1 hour ago, E21A said:

it’s a lot more than £20 though, I paid £35 total for 3 including delivery From coronavirusland 

 

And all you had to do to save the cash was undercut the actual inventor and stifle innovation. Bargain! Those clones are the reason that we never got factory-supported magazine adaptors and it took 5 years and counting for new models to come to market.

 

If they'll continue to prioritise the cheapest possible product at the expense of innovation and quality, airsofters really have no-one but themselves to blame when they get sold shitty, obsolete products that don't work properly out of the box or break shortly thereafter. It's not a coincidence that in 1995 a mobile phone looked like this and in 2020 looks like this, but a 2020 M4 AEG gearbox looks exactly the same as a 1995 one. It's not a coincidence that local airsoft retailers are going out of business (especially in the States) because people would rather save a paltry amount of money than support any actual customer service. It's not a coincidence that Magpul withdrew from their partnership with PTS in disgust and as a result we can't get PDR-Cs or FPGs any more. There is a direct link between people forcing manufacturers into a race to the bargain basement and manufacturers not having any incentive to make innovative products.

The "I would never pay £x for x, so they haven’t lost a sale by me purchasing a rip-off" argument sucked when it applied to pirating music, films and videogames and it sucks here. People buying it is the reason it’s produced. The entitlement of "I want it, but I don’t want to pay for it" is frustrating. It apparently cost TM $1m in 2008 dollars to develop the NGRS system; how are they supposed to recoup the first significant investment in AEG design since they invented the AEG if consumers set an arbitrary limit of "no more than twice the cost of a bargain basement clone of your old gun"?

 

It’s especially irritating with straight clones like the M12 because the clone literally doesn’t do even one single thing better than the original, except be cheap and poorly made. Even CYMA have improved over TM in important ways like having metal receivers. I fully support and will buy things that obviously borrow heavily from an existing design if it’s improved - I’ll happily buy an VFC, because even though it’s mostly a TM clone they’ve massively improved it by making it steel and wood rather than plastic and plastic.

 

This is all far from unique to the Sidewinder, it’s just especially annoying because it’s not the property of some huge faceless corporation. It’s literally one guy who designed an amazing product, put in a truly astonishing amount of his own money and time developing it, getting it manufactured, dealing it to distributors etc., and all so it could get ripped off and sold for profit by massive companies inside six months. At this stage it’s hard to tell if we deserve innovation.

 

Anyway, apologies for dragging the thread off topic.

[Rogerborg]

Off topic is the best topic.

 

First, I didn't know that there was a "real" Odin when I got my knock off, I just heard about these magic "side winder" loaders, and ordered by cheapest on eBay.  Brand recognition and marketing is Odin's to buy, or not.

 

Second, well, yes, I am too cheap to pay £50 for an Odin loader.  Really, no way, no how.  Odin wasn't getting my money anyway.

 

Likewise, TM didn't lose out because I bought a CYMA.  If the cheapest toy gnus were £400, I'd never have got into this hobby in the first place.

[Samurai]

2 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 If the cheapest toy gnus were £400, I'd never have got into this hobby in the first place.

This.

 

Keep improving your product, so the competitors are left behind. Do it at a price that's not more than the double of the copies, do better marketing. Ideas will be stolen.

Having a good idea and half assedly selling is not enough.

[Cr0-Magnon]

Wait, so are we officially adding Odin to "Dreamers of the Week"?

[Adolf Hamster]

tbh this industry is so notorious for people getting ripped off i'm surprised anyone is still bothering to come up with new ideas.

 

i did buy an og odin, because i knew i wanted one and at the time the clones hadn't hit the market yet. touch wood it's never let me down and if it ever does i'll buy another legit one because to me the performance is well worth the money.

 

it's a tricky balance, we need this hobby to be accessible, and that does mean on price. not everyone has the luxury of boatloads of disposable income to throw at what boils down to a bunch of toys. and maybe someone who buys a cheap clone thing might well decide they like the idea enough to buy a genuine one when the clone breaks.

 

however, silver makes a very strong point that nobody will want to innovate in an industry where they know not even patents will save them from getting ripped off left right and centre, i can only imagine how shitty it must feel to pour your heart and soul into a product only to see your business fall flat out of the gate under a wave of cheap knock off's.

 

end of the day everyone's going to make their own choice, for their own reasons, and there's damn all chatting about it on an internet forum is going to do to it.

 

[AlphaBear]

Being the new guy on the block I apolitically apologise most reservedly for taking this thread off-topic and making you 'all talk like sensible airsofters' 😎

 

But ODIN > I never knew. the sidewinder existed until recently and to get a legit one seems like damn impossible. Sadly in the Far East patents aren't worth Jack unless its Lego aka the Lepin debate. It's always gonna be difficult for a small business owner to go up against the bigger machine as their great ideas will get pinched by the corporate giants who have the capacity to quickly produce knock-offs cheaply and hence corner the market. 

[PopRocket123]

13 hours ago, PureSilver said:

 

And all you had to do to save the cash was undercut the actual inventor and stifle innovation. Bargain! Those clones are the reason that we never got factory-supported magazine adaptors and it took 5 years and counting for new models to come to market.

 

If they'll continue to prioritise the cheapest possible product at the expense of innovation and quality, airsofters really have no-one but themselves to blame when they get sold shitty, obsolete products that don't work properly out of the box or break shortly thereafter. It's not a coincidence that in 1995 a mobile phone looked like this and in 2020 looks like this, but a 2020 M4 AEG gearbox looks exactly the same as a 1995 one. It's not a coincidence that local airsoft retailers are going out of business (especially in the States) because people would rather save a paltry amount of money than support any actual customer service. It's not a coincidence that Magpul withdrew from their partnership with PTS in disgust and as a result we can't get PDR-Cs or FPGs any more. There is a direct link between people forcing manufacturers into a race to the bargain basement and manufacturers not having any incentive to make innovative products.

The "I would never pay £x for x, so they haven’t lost a sale by me purchasing a rip-off" argument sucked when it applied to pirating music, films and videogames and it sucks here. People buying it is the reason it’s produced. The entitlement of "I want it, but I don’t want to pay for it" is frustrating. It apparently cost TM $1m in 2008 dollars to develop the NGRS system; how are they supposed to recoup the first significant investment in AEG design since they invented the AEG if consumers set an arbitrary limit of "no more than twice the cost of a bargain basement clone of your old gun"?

 

It’s especially irritating with straight clones like the M12 because the clone literally doesn’t do even one single thing better than the original, except be cheap and poorly made. Even CYMA have improved over TM in important ways like having metal receivers. I fully support and will buy things that obviously borrow heavily from an existing design if it’s improved - I’ll happily buy an VFC, because even though it’s mostly a TM clone they’ve massively improved it by making it steel and wood rather than plastic and plastic.

 

This is all far from unique to the Sidewinder, it’s just especially annoying because it’s not the property of some huge faceless corporation. It’s literally one guy who designed an amazing product, put in a truly astonishing amount of his own money and time developing it, getting it manufactured, dealing it to distributors etc., and all so it could get ripped off and sold for profit by massive companies inside six months. At this stage it’s hard to tell if we deserve innovation.

 

Anyway, apologies for dragging the thread off topic.

This is exactly the reason I was so looking forward to the VFC MP7 AEG when it was first announced. It was the first truly new gearbox design in years and incorporated a bunch of features that are the direction all AEGs are going. I wanted to buy one immediately just to support the innovation. Unfortunately we know how that went. We got a £400 lemon that was somehow less reliable than the notorious GBB version. I'm just glad I never ended up getting one

[E21A]

17 hours ago, PureSilver said:

 

And all you had to do to save the cash was undercut the actual inventor and stifle innovation. Bargain! Those clones are the reason that we never got factory-supported magazine adaptors and it took 5 years and counting for new models to come to market.

 

If they'll continue to prioritise the cheapest possible product at the expense of innovation and quality, airsofters really have no-one but themselves to blame when they get sold shitty, obsolete products that don't work properly out of the box or break shortly thereafter. It's not a coincidence that in 1995 a mobile phone looked like this and in 2020 looks like this, but a 2020 M4 AEG gearbox looks exactly the same as a 1995 one. It's not a coincidence that local airsoft retailers are going out of business (especially in the States) because people would rather save a paltry amount of money than support any actual customer service. It's not a coincidence that Magpul withdrew from their partnership with PTS in disgust and as a result we can't get PDR-Cs or FPGs any more. There is a direct link between people forcing manufacturers into a race to the bargain basement and manufacturers not having any incentive to make innovative products.

The "I would never pay £x for x, so they haven’t lost a sale by me purchasing a rip-off" argument sucked when it applied to pirating music, films and videogames and it sucks here. People buying it is the reason it’s produced. The entitlement of "I want it, but I don’t want to pay for it" is frustrating. It apparently cost TM $1m in 2008 dollars to develop the NGRS system; how are they supposed to recoup the first significant investment in AEG design since they invented the AEG if consumers set an arbitrary limit of "no more than twice the cost of a bargain basement clone of your old gun"?

 

It’s especially irritating with straight clones like the M12 because the clone literally doesn’t do even one single thing better than the original, except be cheap and poorly made. Even CYMA have improved over TM in important ways like having metal receivers. I fully support and will buy things that obviously borrow heavily from an existing design if it’s improved - I’ll happily buy an VFC, because even though it’s mostly a TM clone they’ve massively improved it by making it steel and wood rather than plastic and plastic.

 

This is all far from unique to the Sidewinder, it’s just especially annoying because it’s not the property of some huge faceless corporation. It’s literally one guy who designed an amazing product, put in a truly astonishing amount of his own money and time developing it, getting it manufactured, dealing it to distributors etc., and all so it could get ripped off and sold for profit by massive companies inside six months. At this stage it’s hard to tell if we deserve innovation.

 

Anyway, apologies for dragging the thread off topic.

Achievement unlocked: Discovered capitalism  

[Skara]

4 hours ago, PopRocket123 said:

This is exactly the reason I was so looking forward to the VFC MP7 AEG when it was first announced. It was the first truly new gearbox design in years and incorporated a bunch of features that are the direction all AEGs are going. I wanted to buy one immediately just to support the innovation. Unfortunately we know how that went. We got a £400 lemon that was somehow less reliable than the notorious GBB version. I'm just glad I never ended up getting one

Same.

I was so hyped about it, but then:

Price tag

Proprietary everything

Good fucking luck finding spares and magazines.

 

The last bit of "innovation" was the NGRS series.

Until P* comes out with their full auto Kythera.

And maybe a recoil simulating HPA kit that doesn't cost €1000.

[Steveocee]

OK so I'm not saying this is a "super-mega-ripoff-OMG" but surely something which is as custom as this is done to an individual taste so finding someone to buy it in the first place would be like a needle in a haystack but then for this amount of money? I appreciate the parts list is extensive but it still is marked as needing "accuracy tuning" 😐

 

 

If you were at the level where you'd be spending that much on a Hi-Capa wouldn't you likely want to be building your own anyway?

[Adolf Hamster]

1 minute ago, Steveocee said:

OK so I'm not saying this is a "super-mega-ripoff-OMG" but surely something which is as custom as this is done to an individual taste so finding someone to buy it in the first place would be like a needle in a haystack but then for this amount of money? I appreciate the parts list is extensive but it still is marked as needing "accuracy tuning" 😐

 

 

Surely if you were to the point where you'd be spending that much on a Hi-Capa you'd likely want to be building your own anyway?

 

 

 

tbf as heavily modified hicapa's go it's nowhere near as ugly as most of the offenders in that category, but then that just makes the point about personal taste even more valid.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

tbf as heavily modified hicapa's go it's nowhere near as ugly as most of the offenders in that category, but then that just makes the point about personal taste even more valid.

BUT first, mags never out in a rifle????

second, never fired so you’ll ya e to set it up yourself?

Sorry, that sound so much like a gun the guy has spent a shit tonne on, it doesn’t work as expected, and he can’t get it too because he doesn’t understand tolerances and mis-matches parts, So has given up lol

[Steveocee]

3 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said:

BUT first, mags never out in a rifle????

second, never fired so you’ll ya e to set it up yourself?

Sorry, that sound so much like a gun the guy has spent a shit tonne on, it doesn’t work as expected, and he can’t get it too because he doesn’t understand tolerances and mis-matches parts, So has given up lol

 

Also has an advert for a VFC Avalon that has barely been used but hasn't missed a beat.

 

 

Wouldn't expect it to if it hasn't been used that much.....

[Tackle]

28 minutes ago, Steveocee said:

OK so I'm not saying this is a "super-mega-ripoff-OMG" but surely something which is as custom as this is done to an individual taste so finding someone to buy it in the first place would be like a needle in a haystack but then for this amount of money? I appreciate the parts list is extensive but it still is marked as needing "accuracy tuning" 😐

 

 

If you were at the level where you'd be spending that much on a Hi-Capa wouldn't you likely want to be building your own anyway?

Lol, sounds like he should have left it as "stock", prob performed better. 🤣

In Airsoft, everybody wants to reinvent the wheel, few are successful 🤔

[Musica]

same guy whos wants £700 for his pistol which he has never skirmished. 

 

 

£150 he wants a stake home money + fees+ postage. Absolute joke as for "Used for a few games" my TRMR which I got second hand and have used for a year is less beat up. 

 

We have valued multi shots at £100~ add the primers and postage anything more than £115 is a bit of joke regardless of these being "rare".