Acceptable rates of fire

[ak2m4]

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

Nobber + low ROF gun = ✔️ 

 

tbh, i don't think even that works out for a sufficiently determined arse.

 

 

[Monkman]

HPA user here... personally I love to use semi and only use Full auto when someone deserves it (Not hit taking) - I can adjust the ROF on mine to Wanker level...but why?  All your doing as advertising that you a cunt and there is no need.  One lad on our site who plays every now and again sets his up to fire at a billion rps...and everyone thinks he's a knob.  Marshalls informed and aware and chrono'd to right limits...but still a wanker for running something that fast and overshooting peeps as well.  (He's young and I think trying to show off to his mates with his setup all the time)

 

I always wary of peeps on the site, even more so for rentals & new players..we need more peeps coming into Airsoft, not driving them away by shooting the crap out of them with silly ROF setups.  

 

**Btw using HPA as an example...seen plenty of peeps with DSG builds and high ROF builds being dicks as well...

 

But it's airsoft..and people are people....

 

Merry Xmas everyone.

[Druid799]

Unfortunately it’s like every other hobby you can think of , it’s a brilliant idea UNTIL you introduce the actual players in to it ! ? I’ve got a few mates running HPA who hand on heart are really good guys who take their sportsmanlike attitude very seriously , to them the rig is just a progression of the sport .

But they are in the minority(not saying all HPA players are nobbers I’m just speaking from my own experience)I’m sorry to say but on the whole most if not all I’ve come across have behaved like twats at lest some of the time plain and simple . My take on it is if you’ve got kit that’ll do 35+rps you just can’t guarantee your not going to overkill other players at sometime during the day which is going to set them off . I once took a blast to the face at less than 10ft that shattered the prescription inserts in my glasses because the player had it set to stupid rate of fire he fired out of shock more than anything , I’d managed to sneaky sneaky right in to their ‘territory’ and I scared the living be’jesus out of him when I popped up out of thin air in front of him , that moment of “f**k you scared the shit out of me !” was more than enough time for him to put a very big burst in to my face due to the stupid rate of fire he was set at .

[Impulse]

1 hour ago, Monkman said:

**Btw using HPA as an example...seen plenty of peeps with DSG builds and high ROF builds being dicks as well...

 

As a HPA sniper (best of both worlds!), I'll add spring snipers to that list. Plenty of spring snipers who go for headshots, try to inflict pain because it's "funny" and ignore their MED.

 

Not all HPA users are dicks, just like not all dicks are HPA users.

[Davegolf]

Pussys, dicks and arseholes.

 

Airsoft has always been this way, I find I just take on the challenge of out smarting them and making the way they play ineffective for them.

 

I do completely get that dick players don’t do any good for potential newbs.

 

However of all airsoft gripes dishonesty and non hit taking are the game day killers for me.

[snuff]

As said if you're a dick you're a dick.We played yesterday and there is always a few regular troublesome younger "coders" running HPA's .I say troublesome because they are always getting tagged for non-hit taking, etc,I mean this regularly.It also happens that they are friends of some of the marshalls,so much so that yesterday I heard one of them in question ask the marshall if there was a ROF limit,the coversation continued until the marshall went into the players backpack and made an adjustment for him (you can enlighten me) and the ensuing ROF was crazy.It doesn't personaly bother me so much but you can hear newbies asking WTF!!I think a cap will happen when someone gets tired of being overshot by these types or until someone gets hurt.I know you can hose anyone with any gun but higher ROF makes it easier.

Edited December 21, 2021 by snuff
Fps vs ROF

[SeniorSpaz87]

I am kinda of both minds. On the one hand, I do not build any of my guns to be too high ROF, whether HPA or AEG. With the advent of Titans and ROF limiters on AEGs all my Titan builds are locked at 20RPS. HPA is even easier to tune - they get the same 20 for the most part. I also have several guns that, when built, just shoot slower. My QJB-95 sits around 15RPS, for instance. I only have 3-4 guns above that rate - my M134, M132, my KA 9mm SBR (shoots 26RPS through no fault of its own, just happened when I switched to 11.1s), and im sure theres a gun or two in there that is above 20 as well. And to top that most of the time I have them on burst or fire 3-5 round bursts on auto, if its not a semi-only game. I personally do not like accuracy through volume, whether indoors or out. What I dont like, however, is people wanting to ban HPA simply because it can be used to easily cheat. I can just as easily cheat any chrono with one of my TItan AEGs as I can with HPA - even easier in fact. You can tournie-lock my HPA reg, but you cant stop me from popping my QC gearbox open and changing springs, and its just as easy to attach my Titan programming card to my gun as it is to change FCU settings on HPA - easier in fact if it isnt a FCU with a screen. If sites would learn to lock regulators and pay attention to their players its not a hard thing to catch those trying to cheat (also I am all for reasonable ROF limits at fields), instead of just banning anything HPA.

[Stratton Oakmont]

I await the day plod find out about HPA, it won’t be a good one for the sport.

[Rogerborg]

11 minutes ago, Stratton Oakmont said:

I await the day plod find out about HPA, it won’t be a good one for the sport.

 

You'd think, but really, they don't know, and they don't care.  It's too nuanced an offence.  Look at Eagle6, they literally incriminate themselves with evidence that they're manufacturing Section 5 firearms on YouTube, without any concern or consequences.

 

It's up to sites whether they welcome Señor Spamsalot.  I'll single out Biohazard Airsoft for praise on this one: they're a CQB site, run three-shots-pause, three-shots-pause, and the marshals are all over it.

 

The local woodland sites, not so great.  It's more "Hur hur, c0ol gnu, m8" than having a quiet word about short, controlled bursts.

 

Ultimately, it all comes down to the marshals.  I have a concern that, like with politicians, the job should go to people who don't want to do it.  

[Chicken pie]

I'm fairly new to airsoft having started in Sept.

One of the things that got my attention was rate of fire, in that it excited me. I wanted to buya fast firing rif.

I recently bought a chrono Purely to see the rps of mine and my sons ( box std) arp556.

His was 15rps and mine is 13rps.

This surprised me as I thought it was much higher.

Given the amount of bb I can get through in a day I don't want anything faster and really can't see why more than 20 rps would be needed?

Infact my preferred rate is now 3 round burst as its plenty.

Full auto is only for non callers now.

 

I've no problem with those that want to go faster or what propels them. 

Only real problem I've come across is the drum mag users.

Granted I use high caps at 350 rounds but they are nothing compared to what seems minutes on end from the drummers, from behind their cover !

Really slows or stops the game some days.

I've also noticed bar post teen walk ons, it's seems the drummers are the ones who don't call hits more often?

I sniped one drummer with 3 body shots Sunday from about 40 - 30m as he did a terminator walk across open ground. On the 3rd hit he turned and sprayed me. I just stuck 2 fingers up at him but also then got head shot by a fellow sniper lol so I called hit and off i went.

[snuff]

1 hour ago, Chicken pie said:

 

 

Infact my preferred rate is now 3 round burst as its plenty.

Full auto is only for non callers now.

 

 

I prefer to do controlled burst with full auto but only because of the delay on 3 shot burst,I know the delay is minimal but it is there and during a game it is noticable.On the other hand my m8 loved it.

[HuttArmouries]

In general I think that high rate of fire is pointless and "he burned my patch" ing someone should be a should result in a site ban and other sites being informed. High rate of fire aren't inherently bad things. However I would say that if someone is building as super high rps dsg whatever "Just for the trigger response" it should be locked to semi. As someone else said a 25-20rps max limit could become a thing at more sites. It depends how many people abuse it. I could certainly see milsims implementing it. 

 

Also speaking as someone who runs a variety of lmgs and support weapons I tend to leave the rof stock, run a 7.4 lion battery and happily chug away an entire game without reloading. High rof is not necessary for suppressive fire.

[BigStew]

19 hours ago, Monkman said:

HPA user here... personally I love to use semi and only use Full auto when someone deserves it (Not hit taking) 

And that's the problem 99% of non hit taking is the shooter not hitting the target. So the problem is the player with super duper gun that can shoot laser straight and hit a 2 inch target at 100m can't judge distance for shit. So when they get frustrated at the non hit taker and move position to actually be in range and then then light up the player "who didn't take their hits"  they become the arse hole ruining people's days. As Marshall I pull up far more people for shouting take your hit than actual non hit taking. 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by BigStew

[TheFull9]

Ammo limits are the way, imho, on account of the fact you can literally use any type of RIF under the sun with any mechanism for propulsion but if you run out of beebs half way through the game and aren't allowed to re-stock you're going to watch your weight of trigger finger.

 

Is this easily enforceable?  Absolutely not, same as any other methods suggested, there's plenty of arguments against it.  There's no way you're going to have marshalls checking every pouch and pocket for sneaky hidden mags and bags of bbs.  However it's a rule I'd think most people would follow and a lot of the time it wouldn't be too hard to spot offenders.  Also it just generally adds to the quality of the gameplay in general in all key respects I find, but I have no delusions that that is subjective and some won't agree with me.

 

Just an idea I've held for a long time and like to put out there now and again.

[Ebeneezer Goode]

19 minutes ago, BigStew said:

And that's the problem 99% of non hit taking is the shooter not hitting the target. So the problem is the player with super duper gun that can shoot laser straight and hit a 2 inch target at 100m can't judge distance for shit. So when they get frustrated at the non hit taker and move position to actually be in range and then then light up the player "who didn't take their hits" becomes they become the arse hole ruining people's days. As Marshall I pull up far more people for shouting take your hit than actual non hit taking. 

 

Yep, can relate to that. I'm a relative newcomer to Airsoft having played for about 9 months now, at first there were times I was convinced I'd sprayed someone and they hadn't called it... however, it's plastic bits moving pretty slowly so actually quite easy to dodge Matrix-style. Watching through a sight i could then see my missing of the target that I was convinced I'd aced.

 

Either way I dont get too worked up if someone's not calling hits. Its all just a bit if fun at the end of the day and don't feel the need to get worked up about it. Just shoot them more, eventually they will call it...

[Adolf Hamster]

5 minutes ago, TheFull9 said:

Ammo limits are the way, imho, on account of the fact you can literally use any type of RIF under the sun with any mechanism for propulsion but if you run out of beebs half way through the game and aren't allowed to re-stock you're going to watch your weight of trigger finger.

 

Is this easily enforceable?  Absolutely not, same as any other methods suggested, there's plenty of arguments against it.  There's no way you're going to have marshalls checking every pouch and pocket for sneaky hidden mags and bags of bbs.  However it's a rule I'd think most people would follow and a lot of the time it wouldn't be too hard to spot offenders.  Also it just generally adds to the quality of the gameplay in general in all key respects I find, but I have no delusions that that is subjective and some won't agree with me.

 

Just and idea I've held for a long time and like to put out there now and again.

 

it's an idea i like, as you say problematic to enforce, but good in principle for changing up the game dynamic of a regular skirmish without necessarily screwing anyone over for not having things like low caps etc.

 

problem is, like most things in this sport, it's not the ones who are playing fairly and following the in-place rules that are the problem, so adding more rules won't necessarily fix it.

 

26 minutes ago, BigStew said:

And that's the problem 99% of non hit taking is the shooter not hitting the target. So the problem is the player with super duper gun that can shoot laser straight and hit a 2 inch target at 100m can't judge distance for shit. So when they get frustrated at the non hit taker and move position to actually be in range and then then light up the player "who didn't take their hits" becomes they become the arse hole ruining people's days. As Marshall I pull up far more people for shouting take your hit than actual non hit taking. 

 

this is true, and a trap we've all fallen foul of at some point, even if you're usually an ok judge of things unless you actually see the rounds land then it always remains a possibility.

 

although that doesn't mean non-hit calling isn't a thing, it absolutely is ranging from legitimate no-feels (something no player is immune to, no matter how honest) to tunnel vision to just straight up plot armour.

 

 

[BigStew]

3 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

it's an idea i like, as you say problematic to enforce, but good in principle for changing up the game dynamic of a regular skirmish without necessarily screwing anyone over for not having things like low caps etc.

 

problem is, like most things in this sport, it's not the ones who are playing fairly and following the in-place rules that are the problem, so adding more rules won't necessarily fix it.

 

 

this is true, and a trap we've all fallen foul of at some point, even if you're usually an ok judge of things unless you actually see the rounds land then it always remains a possibility.

 

although that doesn't mean non-hit calling isn't a thing, it absolutely is ranging from legitimate no-feels (something no player is immune to, no matter how honest) to tunnel vision to just straight up plot armour.

 

Oh it most certainly is. I have given payers the benefit of the doubt told them they were hit and to respawn, I have made player remove plate carriers, I have put players out of a game after failing a test shot. But the major thing is perceived non hit taking is significantly more common than non hitting and people falsely calling non hit taking can ruin a games atmosphere more than a non hit taker. As soon as a player Call take your hit you hear players grumbling and suddenly every shot is landing on a non hit taker. You are faced with people deciding if they aren't taking their hits why should we?

 

 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

Since we're well off topic now, I heard a player-marshal grumbling after a game that he'd "hit someone, and the cheeky cnut had put his hand up, then ducked back into cover."

 

I kindly let him know that the cheeky cnut was in fact waving cheerily at him because his BBs were dropping about 3m short.

 

Perhaps ill advised, but he was already convinced that he was hitting me and would have been salty anyway, so I might as well have fun with it.  

[PopRocket123]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

Since we're well off topic now, I heard a player-marshal grumbling after a game that he'd "hit someone, and the cheeky cnut had put his hand up, then ducked back into cover."

 

I kindly let him know that the cheeky cnut was in fact waving cheerily at him because his BBs were dropping about 3m short.

 

Perhaps ill advised, but he was already convinced that he was hitting me and would have been salty about, so I might as well have fun with it.  

I've done that but then shot back with my r hopped AEG shooting heavier ammo and nailed them. They weren't happy... 

 

I like the limited ammo idea. Maybe if you could issue a set amount of ammo when you sign in and that's your lot for the day. Obviously doesn't stop people sneaking their own ammo in but I think if everyone is being conservative then the one person spraying everything would probably stand out. Then you could also provide more ammo for support gunners so that you can then control the number of support gunners on each team. 

[Adolf Hamster]

1 minute ago, PopRocket123 said:

Then you could also provide more ammo for support gunners so that you can then control the number of support gunners on each team. 

 

as long as support gunners are defined as actual heavy guns rather than a paper m249 or ar derivative with a box mag.

[PopRocket123]

20 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

as long as support gunners are defined as actual heavy guns rather than a paper m249 or ar derivative with a box mag.

I suppose you'd have to apply to be a support gunner so you'd take your gun up to the desk or maybe the ammo would get issued and roles assigned at the chrono and they'd decide if you qualify. This is all getting very milsim esque for a regular skirmish day though

[Adolf Hamster]

4 minutes ago, PopRocket123 said:

I suppose you'd have to apply to be a support gunner so you'd take your gun up to the desk or maybe the ammo would get issued and roles assigned at the chrono and they'd decide if you qualify. This is all getting very milsim esque for a regular skirmish day though

 

i'm thinking more that folk will inevitably try to break the spirit of limited ammo by fitting a box mag, rock up at chrono "yeah i'm a support gunner" then proceeding to spend the rest of the day as-normal.

 

and by paper 249 i mean specifically the polymer ones that are so light they double in weight when you fill them up with ammo.

[PopRocket123]

3 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

i'm thinking more that folk will inevitably try to break the spirit of limited ammo by fitting a box mag, rock up at chrono "yeah i'm a support gunner" then proceeding to spend the rest of the day as-normal.

 

and by paper 249 i mean specifically the polymer ones that are so light they double in weight when you fill them up with ammo.

Thats why I said about applying but I realise I never actually said exactly what I meant. The marshals could decide which guns need to be designated as support guns and what could just be used as regular AEGs. 

[Rogerborg]

4 hours ago, PopRocket123 said:

Maybe if you could issue a set amount of ammo when you sign in and that's your lot for the day.

 

What happens to the "suppressing fiiiiiiire" types who run dry in the first hour?

 

Game by game / scenario by scenario, yes, I've seen that work well at a filmsim.  But the reality is that it requires buy-in and trust from all the players.  You can't in practice stop people from trousering a high-cap or six if they want to.

 

The same applies to muzzle energy, mind.