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Good afternoon! As noted above, I have created an official UKAPU Press Office account in order to be able to officially communicate out to members here on the AF-UK forum. It will be handed over to the next Press Officer following the AGM (if a hand over is necessary). Over the next week or so my aim is to update and begin reusing the various social media platforms, as these have regrettably stood dormant for a while. Initial drafts of press releases concerning both the AGM and present structure of the committee have been written, and will shortly be reviewed prior to release. I am glad to hear our members and non-members alike are still keen to engage with us, especially with reference to the future of UKAPU and a potential governing body.

After having dug to a depth of 10 feet last year, British scientists found traces of copper wire dating back 200 years and came to the conclusion that their ancestors already had a telephone network more than 150 years ago. Not to be outdone by the British, in the weeks that followed, an American archaeologist dug to a depth of 20 feet, and shortly after, a story published in the New York Times: “American archaeologists, finding traces of 250-year-old copper wire, have concluded that their ancestors already had an advanced high-tech communications network 50 years earlier than the British”. One week later, Australia’s Northern Territory Times reported the following: “After digging as deep as 30 feet in his backyard in Tennant Creek, Northern Territory, Knackers Johnson, a self-taught archaeologist, reported that he found absolutely bugger-all. Knackers has therefore concluded that 250 years ago, Australia had already gone wireless".

Well, "they" are we. Just airsofters who volunteered to contribute, unpaid and with precious little thanks. A UKAPU rep is just a friend you haven't met (and shot). There's a lot of commendable passion and energy in this thread; is there a way to direct that constructively towards helping UKAPU? (I regret that, like David, I've had to put airsoft on the back burner for now, so I'll only be cheering from the sidelines).

courtesy of reddit... The Swede's wife steps up to the tee and, as she bends over to place her ball, a gust of wind blows her skirt up and reveals her lack of underwear. "Good Grief, woman! Why aren't you wearing any skivvies?", Ole demanded. "Well, you don't give me enough housekeeping money to afford any." The Swede immediately reaches into his pocket and says, "For the sake of decency, here's a 50. Go and buy yourself some underwear." Next, the Irishman's wife bends over to set her ball on the tee. Her skirt also blows up to show that she too, is wearing no undies. "You woman of mine! You've no knickers on. Why not?", asked Patrick. She replies, "I can't afford any on the money you give me." Patrick reaches into his pocket and says, "For the sake of decency, here's a 20. Go and buy yourself some underwear!" Lastly, the Scotsman's wife bends over. The wind also takes her skirt over her head to reveal that she too, is naked under it. "Fur Jake's sake, Aggie! Where the friggin hell are yer drawers?", Duncan inquired. She too explains, "You dinnae give me enough money tae be able tae afford any." The Scotsman reaches into his pocket and says, "Well, fur the love 'o decency, here's a comb... Tidy yerself up a bit."

On Netflix, as almost recommended by The Critical Drinker, and damn, dear viewer, he wasn't wrong. I've linked his review below which covers it well - I'd recommend it as a listen (until you're convinced either way) without necessarily watching as it spoilers some of the plot and action. Or if you fancy a deeper dive into film nerdery, here's an analysis of the top-tier characterisation, choreography and cinematography in just one key scene. I'd echo and emphasise that there's a lot to dislike and be baffled about here if you're expecting a Western cinematic experience. But if you bring zero cynicism, some patience, and quite a few beers, you'll find a joyously epic bromance between two absolutely heroic chads. Taking on a thousand extras, wrestling tigers, John Wick style scenes... on piggyback; heck, even the obligatory musical dance number is an upbeat dance fight that's got more impact and heart than the majority of what Hollywood is churning out. Love it, or WTF? it, this isn't a film that you'll quickly forget.

That explains a lot.

Since the topic has migrated over to national governing bodies, I feel that I can safely return to this thread! As someone who has spent a lot of time looking into this over the past seven years, I feel confident in saying that the main issue to do with national governing bodies, as I'm sure you may be aware, is money. There is a rather disappointing reason why bodies such as the NABV, an organisation that was set up by a team of skirmishers and sites at the insistence of the Dutch Government, are needing to charge approximately £62 a year in order to allow skirmishers to be considered to play airsoft, and that reason is liability. But first, the numbers: whilst we don't have any up to date numbers on how many active skirmishers that there are in the UK, the number that we've been officially floating has been about 60,000. If that number represents actual skirmishers, that would suggest that £5 would bring in £300k per annum and £50 (if we normalised the numbers a bit) would bring in just shy of £2 million per annum. I don't believe that anywhere near that amount of money would be brought in, nor do I believe that sites in the UK would, excepting some massive disastrous push from a future Government where airsoft skirmishers were restricted to allowing those that were fully paid up, formal members of some sort of registered organisation (which I hope organisations such as UKAPU would aggressively campaign against) Now, to the concept of liability: anything that a governing body issues as advice, is issued in the name of the body and as such it is the body carries the liability. I had no problem with helping those with import issues with their queries, because if we as an organisation ended up offering duff advice, then an organisation such as UKAPU (or more accurately, it's executive committee as was correctly pointed out upthread) would not have much in terms of exposure. On the scale of a purchasing a replacement RIF I would suggest, but we've never had to do that thankfully. However, when questions are raised like health and safety (read: eye protection) or how to deal with errand players deliberately and seriously injuring other players during game play, you may end up in the realm of some quite rather expensive personal injury claims being pointed in the direction of the body who issued those guidances. Not just through sites working to best practices of a particular governing body, but manufacturers wishing to understand which specification they need to build their personal protection equipment towards, retailers understanding what goods they can sell without encountering liability etc. At present, liability falls almost solely on site owners, backed by their public liability insurance. Waivers, as much as people wish they waive all liability, still leave the site owners with a fair amount of exposure. Now, how do we get around the issue of liability, one asks? An organisation could issue guidance with a waiver of liability however the outcome of obtaining legal advice was that not only would that be seen as unprofessional from an organisation issuing such guidances, but any waiver of liability would be... not worth much in a court. So, the realistic answer is to purchase insurance. I'm not in the position to discuss exactly how much I personally was quoted per annum however I hope you can tell how disappointed I was when I found it out that it was a five figure sum. It could have been purchased, but it was not the best use of money. There's also the elephant in the room that is "I won't do what you tell me" which... is a topic for another day! Note 1: what is being posted below is my personal opinion. It is not the opinion of UKAPU and therefore should not be interpreted as such. Note 2: the linked High Court case is referring to a case where one rugby player had been involved with a dangerous tackle and caused paralysis to a second rugby player. Whilst it was found that the defendant (the rugby player who initiated the dangerous tackle) was liable, it was ultimately brought to determine whether or not the insurance policy that covered the defendant (arranged by the NGB) had to pay out.

Personally I think the SGB aspect is needed, but isn't necessarily UKAPU-specific -- in fact given how UKAPU has been for the last few years anyway, a different team/org would seem more suitable for the "recognised as a sport" goal. UKAPU-wise, there's not much any of us can do until members have the opportunity to nominate themselves (or others) for the committee elections, prior to the next AGM. At that point certainly folk can help constructively by offering to stand for an officer post, or indeed ask the committee about other non-officer ways of helping UKAPU... I know I will be, at any rate 🙂 Calling out the significant issues is quite right IMO, they've been going on long enough -- I don't now about others, but I'm certainly looking at putting my passion and energy into things including UKAPU, and have had several conversations in DM with others about this.

I've done some research into this previously. The home nations sport councils (sportScotland, Sport England, Sport Wales, Sport Northern Ireland, and UK Sport) all have a joint recognition policy -- and their decision on what counts as sporting activity is defined by the Council of Europe’s 1992 European Sports Charter (as revised in 2001). Essentially, what we'd need to see airsoft "recognised" as a sport in the UK would be a national Spoty Governing Body -- either one for each home nation as applicable, or a UK-wide SGB -- but the latter would need the agreement of all the above sport councils. This would require a fair bit of work, as it would require such an organisation to achieve some level of status within the UK airsoft community, and indeed a fair level of organisation and governance. Right up my alley, but I'm not about to say "right lads, I'm starting the UK Airsoft Association, who wants to help?" -- at least, not unless folk thought it would be worthwhile 😅 I can absolutely see the benefit of an SGB existing for airsoft, especially in terms of promoting it, recognition (including the possibility to apply for sports-earmarked funding to help further airsoft in the UK)... but I know some folk will balk at the idea of "governing body" and worry about rules and regulations being force upon them from on high. In a practical sense I don't think that's necessary, IMO a lot of things are covered by general good practice or UKARA anyway -- things like "accredited" sites having public liability insurance, potentially universal site FPS limits (or perhaps a "recommended" set, with sites ultimately being allowed to set their own within reason). TL;DR: it would be a fair bit of work establishing such an organisation -- but if we got the critical mass of community players and site operators supporting the idea, we could grow such a governance organisation to the stage where it could apply for recognition with the sports councils, which would help give some quasi-legal definition/status to airsoft in the UK, as well as other privileges (like being able to apply for sports funding) -- as well as being in a much better position for advocacy and supporting player's rights.\ If anyone does like the idea (or hate or, or whatever else), my inbox is always open. I'd love to try and make something like this happen, as (1) it's well overdue, and (b) it's not like UKAPU - sadly - has much in the way of relevance or bite atm. (UKAPU, no stealing this. Y'all can't even organise basic communication with members... 😕)

Yeah - like there will be any appetite from any MP or any other Government official to back that one. Airsoft the 'game' will continue even if all the defenses are removed. Many won't like the shape or colour of the guns we would have to use, but when it comes to toys shooting plastic BBs at each other - it will still happen. Airsoft the 'collectors hobby' on the other hand....

It was hot. Very hot. @Lozart was there and he was also very hot. Wait, what?

I am not complaining about them having all that money, other than it apparently having been in a rather vulnerable PayPal account. What I was wondering is what an organisation that seems to do virtually nothing to support airsoft as a hobby plans to do with that money. I completely agree that £20k is nothing for a nation wide representative body. However, UKAPU is not functioning as a a nation wide representative body, as can be seen by reading through through the AGM and Management Meeting minutes. Would airsoft in the UK be any different if UKAPU did not exist? I suspect that the answer to that is no.

I'll put my hand up and admit I was the one that brought the finances to @Colin Allen's attention. The complaint isn't necessarily at the money is in "savings" (which it doesn't actually appear to to be) -- more the fact that the vast majority is sitting as a PayPal balance (which PayPal could freeze and effectively confiscate indefinitely at any time, for more or less any reason, as they are wont do to, especially if they took a look and decided there was even the remotest possibility it was firearms-related... Additionally, PayPal accounts are much more insecure than regular bank accounts, and cash in PayPal accounts aren't protected by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme -- so if something happened to PayPal (or even just their UK operations), those monies wouldn't be protected / recoverable. That aside, your "it's "nothing" for a "nationwide representative body" is disingenuous -- for that to apply, UKAPU would have to actively be representing their stated aims and interests, at a nationwide level -- and between their blatant lack of communication, significant number of vacant posts, and nobody else claiming the've had any dealings with UKAPU (which would at least provide some evidence in the face of UKAPU's silence about such matters), there is no proof they have been doing anything of note for the airsoft community recently, much less at a "nationwide" level. You're saying one hell of a big "if" for an association whose primary membership is FOC. How you expect that they should have "[a] reserve fund multiple times that" I don't know, they certainly don't have the membership or income stream to warrant such things -- nor do they offer or claim to "fight legal cases" or fund "white papers" or anything else. They don't need a huge slush fund to be effective, Stew -- they need a committee of members that (a) actively do things, and (b) actually communicate with members and the outside world - and as stated, between social media posts being 3 years out of date and there basically having been total radio silence for members (never mind anyone else) for over a year, and failure to provide any minutes or accounts or a 2022 AGM or anything remotely like that, it would seem apparent that they aren't effective at simply maintaining a members organisation, never mind actively promoting or fighting for any cause. Context matters. Failed comparisons and hypothetical what-ifs, not so much.

A few mid game action shots from last week 🔫🪖

First time playing since before lockdown and my first time at Area 66 on Saturday. Had a blast.

Facts. Better springs hold their strength for longer (like the nice Japanese steel ones that @ak2m4 is selling now under his XT brand - plug, plug) and yes, springs can lose their oomph over time especially if they're held in compression, but it really isn't noticeable over a day. Yep. Physics, innit. So...you operated a machine incorrectly and it broke. Sound about right?

I wonder if a newer airsoft standard (or any "definition") can be useful and to what extent. There is already a set of de facto standard, which is the legal joule limits for the RIFs, requirements for eye protection (probably required by insurance), and sites having third party liability insurance being a legal requirement (in order to count as VCRA permitted activities). One can argue any more regulation than that is not really necessary and is just going to limit the open-ended nature of the hobby. One can even argue airsoft is not a sport because it is too open-ended. Therefore any new standard can only become one variant of airsoft, but not the entire hobby. And if it proves to be more accessible to beginners and more fun to play and more safe to play and therefore more profitable to run, then nobody will need to enforce it because fields will be adopting it automatically. So the question becomes, what could be a more popular, more fun, more fair, more safe, and more profitable form of airsoft? Or is it all external factors like cultural perception of guns for example? Then the question becomes, shouldn't this be left to market competition between airsoft fields to figure out? Then the question becomes, isn't the internet forums already playing the role of think tank? What can a bunch of committee do better than the internet? Then the question becomes, is the idea of an airsoft association even useful, and what is it that only a bunch of committee can do and nobody else can? Is it mainly an ambassador or representation type of role? Or a journalist? Then the question becomes, should it rather be a youtube channel or a magazine or something? Then the question becomes, should it rather be a business who get sponsorships from sporting or tactical clothing companies or things of that nature and produce entertainment content about airsoft, like famous guntubers like Matt from Evike? (That was a joke) Then the question becomes, shouldn't a UKARA clone be promoting the sport? After all retailers are the biggest players in the airsoft economy, aren't they? Then the question becomes, what does a player union even do? Lobbying group? Lobbying for what? What bargaining power does it have? What is there to lobby that the free market is not able to invent? Maybe acting as market research agency working with UKARA and field owners and players and sponsors and insurance brokers? Or is it merely a symbol for the fragmented nature of the airsoft hobby? In fact don't we already have a model for this? SpeedQB has their own version of airsoft and is doing great!

Leave me alone. 😱

Agree, it's right up there with Sellers who feel the need to stick "bargain" in their classifieds title, I think that's for others to make that distinction lol

If you go TM, get the M9A1.

That was bloody hilarious. I had a bead on some guy hiding in a building and I called to him to identify, he popped his head up waving and going "blobalobaloba" in a high pitched squeak, then popped back down. It was like playing airsoft on sesame Street Creased me up.

You love it, you cheap tart.

Every year I've thought that NAF sounds like a bag of shit. This year, however, I've been playing exclusively at Red Alert and the staff there all go every year. I asked why and they explained you don't go expecting good airsoft. You go for ridiculous airsoft, the big car boot, and a fun social. I'm going with them this year, so I'll get to see if it's the shitshow I thought it was, or if its ludicrous enough to be enjoyable in a different way. Worst case scenario I get drunk with friends and spend money on second hand rifs I don't need.

Nah - it's the site I don't like. If the NAF was held elsewhere I'd consider giving it a go. GZ is only 20mins away from me - there's a good chance that I would only play for a few hours, have a quick look around the trade stalls and then sack the rest of the weekend off as I would have no compelling reason to stay. Fair play if it floats your boat though.

Precisely. A "governing body" doesn't have to mean someone new to tell players/sites what they can do, it's just agreed standards that -- other than helping meet sport council requirements by (among other things) demonstrating basic standards and organisation / "governance", they can focus on outreach and advocacy for airsoft in the UK

Absolutely (edit …. I’ve read your interims but will still stick to back slapping each other with ‘absolutely a’ There is no one set of rules in paintball. We have had the UKSPC (scenario paintball community) which is very much forgotten and I ran the first UKSPC compliant event, my rulesets were already in that ball park, and every event since has had them as the core ruleset Even a few years ago an international tournament set the single tournament world ruleset - which had US rules and rest of world rules. (But it was by one US company so everyone got upset in the US) What does matter is where you have highlighted: Standards The basic safety standards, best practice, and complying with the law It was paintballs standards that enabled UKPSF member sites to be recognised under the ministry announcement, Sport England endorsement and then a member site had the processes and paperwork to get clearance from their local council

This would be better placed in https://airsoft-forums.uk/forum/51-skirmish-sites-stories-reviews/ I suspect. "Definitely worth checking it out" seems a bit disingenuous since you appear to be the operator, rather than an unrelated player giving a positive review... What makes you a "superior" (according to your website) skirmish site, anyway? Superior in what way, and compared to where else? 😊

Absolutely this. Politically there are a few ways of describing airsoft which will absolutely not garner support to the cause... 😅 You replied while I was writing mine, but this is exactly the point -- there can be big advantages to having an SGB, from "recognition" to funding, certain statuses afforded to sports (in things like lockdown, etc.) - and being promoted as a "sport" rather than simply a hobby (push mental and physical health benefits, etc.) can do a lot to help improve public image / correct misconceptions.

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The direction to take with MPs is not about a game of shooting people with gun like things. But if businesses in the recreational sports sector are the tactic then that’s what gets more positive support among MPs Paintball isn’t registered / recognised as a sport …… but Sport England did recognise it as meeting the criteria for reopening during covid. Key to that was the UKPSF as a recognised body, and being known to Sport England - they are not pursuing sports recognition to be in the Olympics etc, but for other benefits and support from Sport England (and other UK sports bodies) and that it brings recognition with local councils etc

Regarding upgrades. I have the tnt hop and barrel on order. Crazy jet inner barrel and 60° rubber Mr hop bucking on my desk so in a few weeks time I will have a definitive revieve what's the best setup.

I agree 20k is a small amount. I also agree they don't much money to be effective. I think maybe if they open up and allow more volunteers to contribute rather than playing musical chairs of imaginary positions, they might be able to get things started at least without much spending. A white paper can start with a well written summary of the status quo, which obviously involves some research and speaking to various groups of people (field owners and a good sample of players perhaps), but if any volunteers who wants to play airsoft committee in spare time as a hobby perhaps it doesn't need to spend much money. You know what, anyone here wants to start a new club?

Ok cool, thanks for the clarification, wasn't clear that it was same game after clearing the base. In which case well done on the high kill count Lol, two responses to this 1. Fair enough or 2. Excuses excuses! As @Dan Robinsonsaid, a sports drink that helps boost the salts and minerals lost through sweat can make a difference but hydration is a process that can take days. I am also aware I sound preachy, sorry for that.

You have much more effectively said what should be happening than my "step up". They have utterly failed to justify their existence and i agree that no money should be sitting in a PayPal account. I did not bring up the white paper i was just responding to that and yes they don't fight cases (again don't seem to do anything) but a functioning players association should be doing that and to do that or even operating/maintain a members date/base web sit could eat significant funds. I will stand by my assertion that cash reserves of 20k is nothing and not disingenuous, yes I am dealing in what ifs as if they were actually functioning that money could be spent very quickly on legitimate expanses.

I asked my german friend 'why have you got a piece of meat in the boot of your car' he replied 'that is my spare veal'

In the airsoft rif manufacturers defence, there is only a finite number of actual rs weapons to replicate…what exactly would you like to see that is yet to be turned into an airsoft rif? Also what is meant by pre firing? Do you mean binary triggers?

I don't think airsoft is running out of steam. I think the manufacturers are. Each year it's what new M4's are they producing. If no one ever made another armalite there would be enough to go around for years to come. Maybe release the new latest furniture every now and then to fit the existing M4's. I wouldn't mind if there was real innovation but so much is the same gun and gearbox over and over again. I'm thinking back to 2003ish when classic army exploded with a range of AK74's, G36's, Aug's, G3's, M249's, SR25's TM were knocking out Sig 552's, M14's, M733's (an overhaul of the basic tooling) a revamped GBB system for pistols. Chinese clones were cheap as chips and even they showed innovation and new models. I think one of the first HK416's was a JG. I'd take a thundermaul over yet another MK18 any day. Given the primary reason for airsoft guns was to get hold of accurate replicas of firearms I would like to see more variety from the manufacturers. It's all got a bit stale for me. I'm happy to keep playing and buying but there's not as much that excites me these days AEG wise.

What’s not helping are the amount of YT videos out there that give the wrong impression of what we do - it’s not kills every few seconds, everyone’s not a cheater and pews aren’t laser accurate. Spoke to a guy last night and his only impression of Airsoft was from stumbling across YT videos and the above is exactly what he thought we did. Of course I set him straight, but that’s what we’re up against when trying to attract new people into the sport. I don’t think interest in general is waning, it’s not the kind of activity that shouts about itself, so it’s pretty hard to gauge anyway. I’d say that growth is organic though with players inviting others along and getting them hooked.

Was a full 360 mate, was why I ended up returning them to the retailer. Shame, but what can you do. And on the topic of retailers.. As much as I was hell-bent on hating the P-mags I can't help but feel that these kind of look fucking cool and I don't hate them, as cheesy as the mock bullet window is. They fit and feed flawlessly which is the more important thing obviously. We'll see if they'll hold up any well on Sunday's game!

Plug, plug here as well; they are excellent springs. They are consistent across batches and maintain their boinginess very well.

Finally finished my ICS L85A2

In terms of numbers my local sites are still going strong. As for the case of changing styles of play? Trends come and go. Yes, speedsofters have pretty much taken over any and all indoor sites, so go outdoors there's a lot less of them there. Granted CQB is where I started off (ahhh...The Mall....good times) but it was always the same - some that were happy to follow a bang through a door way and a bunch of wusses gagglefucking outside. Captain Teamkill shouting from the back to "move up" and going nowhere himself. Pretty much all that's changed is the guns have got shorter and there's more kids in lycra. Before AEGs were a thing ALL guns had hoses on them. HPA is nothing new and I doubt it's going away, finding a responsible site that polices its players is the way to change things though, not broad brushing the whole crowd as cheaters. There were just as many bad sportsmen before the tanks and airlines resurfaced.

Well, that's a shame. Area-66 runs the occasional evening / night games, so depending how far the travel is, it might be worth keeping an eye on them. To be clear, I do like PoW, but as with Section 8, you can occasionally go whole games without even seeing the other team, especially if you're on defence. At Area-66, it's generally straight into the action.

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Obligatory meme response:

We can hope, but performance in RC racing is objective, while in airsoft, the narratives in our head are as important as cruel reality. We're still at this energy.