Any help appreciated on trying to end the FPS/joule Chrono issues at sites.

[Oneshotscott]

Please don't bite as this is just a passing thought.

 

This forum (along with other Airsoft forums) has enough intellect in its member to collaborate and create a template email/letter to ask our sites to change how it measures our RIF'S at Chrono.  If we ALL send/hand in this template the message will get across that they're acting wrongfully by potentially allowing "hot RIF'S" in gameplay.  I can't see the site owners taking any offence to this as they should take safety very seriously to ensure the future of this hobby and their businesses.

 

 Something on the lines of;

 

Dear airsoft site, 

 

     I ...............................am asking for you to stop using the current method of carrying out chronograph testing with 0.20g bb's as this method cannot determine accurately the joule rating if a different weight bb which the user will use.   I am suggesting for the safety of the players that you adopt the method of carrying out chronograph tests using the players bb's which they will be using and measuring the joule rating instead of FPS(feet per second).

 

Regards, 

 

........................................

 

signed        ..............................             Date ....../......./........

 

 

If needed, a concise explanation of joule creep could be included with an example to avoid any debate on how the physics works which may help avoid debates with site owners/Marshall's on these grounds.

 

Can we all work together and collectively as a whole across all forums, social media etc to all apply this email/letter to sites?  Dare I say it but...even get in touch with the well known YouTube Airsofters and ask them to assist in getting this off the ground?  If we can have some big names and companies on board (brands/UKAPU/popular players/retailers) then maybe they'd be happy for us to mention them on the letter to add leverage.

 

 

[EDcase]

I think its more of an issue using the players BBs because with both testing methods you can't be sure they tell the correct BB weight.

It would be ideal for the site to provide some BBs for testing but the cost and added time at chrono makes it difficult.  (I know some sites do it)

 

Anyone who wants to cheat can still do a bit by setting hop to max before chrono anyway.

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by EDcase

[Oneshotscott]

EDcase,   

 

  This is brilliant stuff so thanks, just what is needed to resolve this issue.  The more 'ways to cheat' or problems as I see them the better in order to eliminate them at the chronograph testing procedure.  

 

Regards the players who cheat the Chrono via applying too much hop: This would be difficult to police and I would like to think that sites have a very well airsoft educated/time-served Marshall carrying out the chronograph tests.  This way the Marshall could jot the players name down if he/she had an incline that the rif was over-hopped and could carry out a random Chrono shortly after game start.  

 

 

[Groot]

Its really not worth the effort.

I could cheat almost any chrono and carry on my merry way with a hot gun. Ammo weight lie, quick spring swap, PTW cylinder change, hop fiddle, NPAS adjust or gas change.
Worse still, avoid the chrono completely or put a gun through and change to a hot gun in the second game. 
VERY few sites check at all beyond the morning, "Please go chrono. Here is a little tag" dance. 

 

Best way is do your check in the morning, to weed out any newbies who have rocked up with a new gun that is hot out the box. Then random in game chrono. Both examples using site provided ammo. 

Do that and then FPS or Joules are a moot point. ( Joule creep aside but thats really only for Gas and Snipers ) 
Again, site provided .2s and .5s for situation would mitigate this as best it could.

 

Outside of that people will lie and cheat for an edge or because they are a little cunty. 
 

[ImTriggerHappy]

18 minutes ago, Oneshotscott said:

EDcase,   

 

  This is brilliant stuff so thanks, just what is needed to resolve this issue.  The more 'ways to cheat' or problems as I see them the better in order to eliminate them at the chronograph testing procedure.  

 

Regards the players who cheat the Chrono via applying too much hop: This would be difficult to police and I would like to think that sites have a very well airsoft educated/time-served Marshall carrying out the chronograph tests.  This way the Marshall could jot the players name down if he/she had an incline that the rif was over-hopped and could carry out a random Chrono shortly after game start.  

 

 

 

Easiest way for any site is to test using their own bbs and run one standard weight. When working a chrono and trying to rush players through all the faff of different weights is just to much hassle. Testing in fps is no different to joules and people like to make some big issue out of something that isn't.

 

No marshall will spot an overhopped gun on chrono as they are looking at the reading not flight path. If players will want to cheat they will changing gas on gbb is the easiest and impossible to police.

 

I wouldn't worry about safety either as I used to play cqb games running over 500fps and  had nothing, but a springer tri shot doing about 280 fractured my finger so it is just luck of the draw. So a few fps difference with joule creep will not add much if anything to the pain or safety of it.

[Lozart]

If you seek to avoid people using hot guns then the ONLY way you can do it is to ban walk ons and provide all the guns and BBs yourself.

 

If you use players BBs at chrono you would have to weigh them on the spot which assumes that each chrono spot will have space for a set of accurate micro scales. You would also need to make sure all sites use properly calibrated chronos which are regularly tested with known weights and velocities to double check them.

 

If you want to avoid Joule creep then yes, use heavier ammo to test with in the first place. Insist on a zero tolerance policy of tournament locks with site applied tamper evident tags for HPA, monitor everyone to ensure nobody chronos with one weight then toddles off and uses way heavier BBs in game or fills up with more powerful gas.

 

Then shut up shop because nobody wants to play at your site.

[Cr0-Magnon]

Are there a significant number of examples of joule creep with standard "battle rifle" AEG's? 
 

I feel like this only really comes in to play when you start talking about bolt action and DMR's.

[Oneshotscott]

Thank for all of your input.  I wasn't aware of the abundance of ways players could cheat.  That said, this thread can be deleted as its clearly utterly pointless/futile.

 

So MODERATORS, please delete or leave it to sink away into the abyss.

[Groot]

Op' there have been worse ideas on this forum.

I mean, some people still try to defend speedsofting

 

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Testing in fps is no different to joules

 

The issue is the BB mass.  Either trusting players with regard to what they are using ("Yeah, mate, I'm using twos", when they're spamming 0.3g), or chronoing with site 0.2g when just about everybody will be using heavier BBs and likely[*] to be Joule creeping upwards.

 

 

1 hour ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

Are there a significant number of examples of joule creep with standard "battle rifle" AEG's? 
 

I feel like this only really comes in to play when you start talking about bolt action and DMR's.

 

I was very surprised to find that my G36C crept from 1.1J on 0.28g to bang on 1.2J on 0.32g, without any other change.  

 

[*] But it also chronos at spot-on 1.13J on 0.2g, on a different site's chrono, all figures taken with the hop set for the mass of BB that it's shooting, so it's not even consistent, appearing to drop energy at 0.28g and picking it up at 0.32g, presumably down to air seal with that specific hop pressure.

 

I agree that it's more likely to be an issue for over-volumed guns.  You can over-volume an AEG, I get more creep out of my full-cylinder DMR'd M4 when I put a short barrel in it.

 

 

Anyway, tl;dr response, site owners will do what site owners will do.  I'd suggest having a word with them and seeing what their thoughts are, rather than firing in with a written demand.  Some take it very seriously, some are just doing it for form's sake and don't really give a stuff.

 

If I was going to nudge towards anything, it would be chroning in-game with site provided 0.4g+ BBs.  Anything else is just theatre, and won't result in catching the worst problem players.

[ImTriggerHappy]

21 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

The issue is the BB mass.  Either trusting players with regard to what they are using ("Yeah, mate, I'm using twos", when they're spamming 0.3g), or chronoing with site 0.2g when just about everybody will be using heavier BBs and likely[*] to be Joule creeping upwards.

 

The point is measuring in joules compared to fps is no different. If a gun reads high in joules on a chrono it will read high in fps as well.  Joule creep is impossible to police unless every player tests on the ammo they use and is honest, which they wont be and no site has time to weigh and adjust chrono each time. Also most sites use cheap chronos which give wildly different results compared to a decent calibrated chrono so people will regularly fire over but get low results and vice versa.

 

Using heavier ammo to test won't stop it as some guns struggle to feed and hop heavy ammo and this can lead to them firing ridiculously low on heavy ammo as it doesn't seat properly with a bad feed.  But stick in 0.2s or 0.25s and they can be hot.

 

Joule creep is not as common as people seem to think and it's effects are rarely of much significance.  The normal way of testing on 0.2s has been fine for years and I am yet to see anyone get severely injured from being shot with a hot gun. So why people need to cause so much of a fuss about it in the last few years is beyond me.

 

Actually it doesn't suprise me as we have created a society that has nothing better to do than build mountains out of mole hills. 

[Groot]

5 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

 

The point is measuring in joules compared to fps is no different. If a gun reads high in joules on a chrono it will read high in fps as well.  Joule creep is impossible to police unless every player tests on the ammo they use and is honest, which they wont be and no site has time to weigh and adjust chrono each time. Also most sites use cheap chronos which give wildly different results compared to a decent calibrated chrono so people will regularly fire over but get low results and vice versa.

 

Using heavier ammo to test won't stop it as some guns struggle to feed and hop heavy ammo and this can lead to them firing ridiculously low on heavy ammo as it doesn't seat properly with a bad feed.  But stick in 0.2s or 0.25s and they can be hot.

 

Joule creep is not as common as people seem to think and it's effects are rarely of much significance.  The normal way of testing on 0.2s has been fine for years and I am yet to see anyone get severely injured from being shot with a hot gun. So why people need to cause so much of a fuss about it in the last few years is beyond me.

 

Actually it doesn't suprise me as we have created a society that has nothing better to do than build mountains out of mole hills. 

Because the new wave of Airsofters are entitled sissy girly boys. 
 

This is why more and more sites run semi only in cqb. Because of players QQ’ing, that they got lit up. So sad. 
 

bunch of soft sooks! 
 

man up or put on a full face and body armour. 

[leadly]

5 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

 

The point is measuring in joules compared to fps is no different. If a gun reads high in joules on a chrono it will read high in fps as well.  Joule creep is impossible to police unless every player tests on the ammo they use and is honest, which they wont be and no site has time to weigh and adjust chrono each time. Also most sites use cheap chronos which give wildly different results compared to a decent calibrated chrono so people will regularly fire over but get low results and vice versa.

 

Using heavier ammo to test won't stop it as some guns struggle to feed and hop heavy ammo and this can lead to them firing ridiculously low on heavy ammo as it doesn't seat properly with a bad feed.  But stick in 0.2s or 0.25s and they can be hot.

 

Joule creep is not as common as people seem to think and it's effects are rarely of much significance.  The normal way of testing on 0.2s has been fine for years and I am yet to see anyone get severely injured from being shot with a hot gun. So why people need to cause so much of a fuss about it in the last few years is beyond me.

 

Actually it doesn't suprise me as we have created a society that has nothing better to do than build mountains out of mole hills. 

 

Not entirely true. My sniper runs at 460ish on 0.2's which is 2.29j on my set up. If I were to get it any closer to 500fps on 0.2's I'd be over in joules when I chuck some 0.46's down it. Hence there is a difference in measuring in them.

 

That's the main issue with people who build their first sniper. They aim for 500 FPS because sites set that limit and people see it as a target. But then use heavier weights et voilà, Joule creep!

[Rogerborg]

6 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

So why people need to cause so much of a fuss about it in the last few years is beyond me.

 

The proliferation of HPA and heavy BBs.

 

If 1.15J is OK, why not 1.2J?

 

If 1.2J is OK, why not 1.3J?

 

If 1.3J is OK, why not... well, that's a section 5 firearm, but why make custodial offences out of molehills?

 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

2 hours ago, leadly said:

 

Not entirely true. My sniper runs at 460ish on 0.2's which is 2.29j on my set up. If I were to get it any closer to 500fps on 0.2's I'd be over in joules when I chuck some 0.46's down it. Hence there is a difference in measuring in them.

 

Actually entirely true as if over in joules on 0.46 in joules you will be over in fps on 0.46 too as both mediums correlate to each other the math is quite simple. The problem is there has too be a set medium for testing and unless you can guarantee players won't lie about weight then you are always going to get people creeping over.

 

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

The proliferation of HPA and heavy BBs.

 

If 1.15J is OK, why not 1.2J?

 

If 1.2J is OK, why not 1.3J?

 

If 1.3J is OK, why not... well, that's a section 5 firearm, but why make custodial offences out of molehills?

 

 

 

What next do we have everyone using gas guns re-chrono when the sun comes out?

 

The real world difference in getting shot by 1.1 and 1.3 joules is really fuck all so as players it doesn't really change our day.

So as long as people in the majority are sticking by the rules to appease the lawmakers which they do then the odd idiot trying to cheat is just life and impossible to completely stop.

 

Next stop is we should look into spoons as a teaspoon is almost a knife so ladles should be the norm because...........

[leadly]

1 hour ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

 

Actually entirely true as if over in joules on 0.46 in joules you will be over in fps on 0.46 too as both mediums correlate to each other the math is quite simple. The problem is there has too be a set medium for testing and unless you can guarantee players won't lie about weight then you are always going to get people creeping over.

 

True, but the same gun that's over on joules and FPS running 0.46's, can also be under limit when measuring just FPS and ignoring joules on 0.2's, like we know some sites do.

 

I guess it's entirely up to the individual, but I know that the toy guns I field are within the required joule limits and I'm happy enough to know that if someone got hurt from me shooting them, it'll be more down to bad luck than me being a bell end.

 

It's a game of honour at the end of the day with regards to more than just hit taking. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by leadly

[EDcase]

4 hours ago, Groot said:

...This is why more and more sites run semi only in cqb...

I prefer semi only games because there's more skill involved and none of these twats going for stupid rof to compensate for their crap shooting abilities.

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by EDcase

[Tackle]

16 minutes ago, EDcase said:

I prefer semi only games because there's more skill involved and none of these twats going for stupid rof to compensate for their crap shooting abilities.

 

Amen brother, I only use semi (although the vector you just sold me, its 2 shot burst is gonna get some use 😁), once played a woodland site that was running semi only that day, the layout of the site was pretty bland, nowt special, but well run & the semi rule was a breath of fresh air, prob one of the best days I'd had in years. 

 

That aside, the only site I've visited that maintained its stringent checking/marking of guns was the mall (under Luke?), unfortunately cheats will cheat, fact of life, so unless ALL sites step up their game, nothings gonna change 😕 And before anyone says its the players responsibility etc, BOLLOCKS, we all pay for a service, gameplay, use of facilities, & most of all client safety, are what we pay for & what organisers are morally & legally obliged to do their utmost to provide. No excuses, why is it some sites can do it consistently & others fail miserably, the only answer is lazyness & poor management. 

[Shamal]

You tell em boy 😉

 

Regards 

[Badgerlicious]

1 hour ago, Tackle said:

unfortunately cheats will cheat, fact of life

This, basically. It will never be solved without unrealistic methods.

 

What joule testing will do is catch the stupid cheater, and inform the ignorant that their gun is hot. It's £60 for a chrono that can program bb weights + £200 for a quality chrono like a skan to check against, shouldn't be a huge burden a business. There's not much excuse to not test in joules these days. 

[Rogerborg]

13 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

What next do we have everyone using gas guns re-chrono when the sun comes out?

 

Yes, we should. Or we should stop quite literally wasting everybody's time by doing voluntary pre-game chrono in the morning.

 

I'm actually OK with either solution, I mostly object to pointless half-arsed rituals.

[Steveocee]

@Rogerborg I play at 2 sites (same operator) who don't do a pre game chrono. He trusts his players to be aware of their weapons. There are always random in game tests but I'm yet to see anyone over and get tugged out mid game.

[Adolf Hamster]

as has already been mentioned, as a mechanism to catch a determined cheater there's holes in pretty much any method you care to name.

 

the best we can hope for is to catch the honest but ignorant cases, the lazy cheaters and follow that up with decent in-game marshalling to weed out those who slip past.

 

i can't say i agree with the whole "being XYZ over doesn't really hurt any more", if that's the case why not raise the limits? why have limits at all?

 

it's all well and good to play the manly man who doesn't feel pain on the internet, but remember this hobby is supposed to be fun, and not everyone thinks pain is fun, and that is not a character flaw.

 

after all, if the energy of a hit doesn't matter why play airsoft instead of paintball?

[colinjallen]

40 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Yes, we should. Or we should stop quite literally wasting everybody's time by doing voluntary pre-game chrono in the morning.

 

I'm actually OK with either solution, I mostly object to pointless half-arsed rituals.

One thing to consider is site insurance; when we had insurance, one of the conditions was:

No guns that have a gun velocity of greater than 500 fps single shot (328 fps for risks situated in Northern Ireland), or 370 fps fully automatic (328 fps for risks situated in Northern Ireland) are to be used in any skirmish. Players may use their own modified guns provided that they comply with this. The Insured must chronograph the gun the first time the member plays at the site and after any modifications to ensure compliance;

We talked to a number of companies before taking out insurance; that condition was common to all of them.

Given that it is impossible to know if someone has modified a gun, the only way to conform to that is to chrono every gun at every game.

Sites that do not chrono (hello, Ultimate Wargames) have probably invalidated their insurance, which has some interesting ramifications.

As Tackle has stated, sites have a duty to ensure safety; that is why poor chrono practice and shit marshalling are unacceptable.

[ImTriggerHappy]

7 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

as has already been mentioned, as a mechanism to catch a determined cheater there's holes in pretty much any method you care to name.

 

the best we can hope for is to catch the honest but ignorant cases, the lazy cheaters and follow that up with decent in-game marshalling to weed out those who slip past.

 

i can't say i agree with the whole "being XYZ over doesn't really hurt any more", if that's the case why not raise the limits? why have limits at all?

 

it's all well and good to play the manly man who doesn't feel pain on the internet, but remember this hobby is supposed to be fun, and not everyone thinks pain is fun, and that is not a character flaw.

 

after all, if the energy of a hit doesn't matter why play airsoft instead of paintball?

 

It is not a case of trying to be manly it is just that the very slight increase in energy joule creep causes is pretty insignificant compared to the hassle of trying to stamp it out. 

 

Only way to completely stop anybody ever being over is test all guns on three weights to try and cover all possibilities and that means on busy sites situations like opening chrono at 5am to start playing by 9am.

 

People using high power gas but chronoing on duster causes a much more significant jump than joule creep does but there isn't endless posts about sites only allowing green gas that has to be bought on site to try and stamp out that. 

 

As I said earlier the jump between gas guns from a cold morning to an afternoon game can be quite a bit but again nothing ever gets said about that.

 

Sites that chrono every gun are already doing the best job they feasibly can and changing from fps to joules makes no difference as the fps charts for each weight correspond to the joules for each weight.

 

If you test a gun in joules you will still get exactly the same amount of people lying about weight as you would if you test in fps so round and round it goes.

 

Random checks are the best bet but I can tell you lots of players get arsey when randomly pulled out of games to be tested and then some poor marshal who isn't equipped to deal with confrontation is in a situation they can't cope with. Some people might scoff at that saying that is what they are there for but that is easy to to say when you are not facing down some ranting idiot with his mates stood behind him. Not every site has someone with that ability.

 

There will never be an easy fix because the truth is while most airsofters try to be decent some will be arseholes and no change in rules that doesn't involve 5hr chronos and security cameras in safe zones and so many other draconian things that would be needed to stop it occurring entirely. All that being implemented would mean you feel like you get your whole 90mins of playtime after queing all day for chrono in a concentration camp.