Site Banned all C02

[Zigey]

Looking at booking onto a site (acecombat) that I haven't been to before so of course I'm reading the rules like a good boy and I see this, 

"No CO2 weapons of any kind.

No gas snipers or DMR’s of any kind."

 

Now my sidearm is C02 and my new main is C02 as well so I'm feeling a little putout that id not be able to use them,

has anyone seen this rule before?

Is this common and I'm just a smuck for using C02?

 

Thanks hivemind

[kasaran]

firesupport's site FreeFireZone has that rule, was the same at their other site before it shut down Urban Assault.  (no hpa at their sites either i believe... having not checked up on that before posting)

 

The now closed sabotage near milton keynes didnt allow gas snipers i believe, but co2 other things were ok

[Impulse]

It's dumb and I wouldn't book in there either, but with my collection and play style I'm very biased in that. First site I've seen that has banned it and I have no idea really why they would. Are they also banning HPA snipers / DMRs? If so, why just snipers and DMRs? Why not all HPA? Why are gas snipers and DMRs banned, but GBBRs and GBB/NBB pistols are fine? Also, what makes CO2 so bad? So many questions around this weird decision.

 

For gas snipers and DMRs, I think it's probably because they can be easy to cheat with as well. I have, technically, 3 gas snipers or DMRs, being a HPA VSR, HPA m21 and a Tanaka m700 and I know for a fact I could set my regulator on my HPA setups to pass chrono, then go away and jack that gun all the way up. Similarly, I could chrono my m700 on 144a, then go away and chuck higher power gas in it later. However, if they were banning it for that reason they'd surely just ban all HPA, but they clearly haven't. Also, why wouldn't they ban GBBRs or GBB/NBB gas pistols for the same reason? I wouldn't because that's unsafe and incredibly dickish, but that's the theory of what a person could do.

 

Maybe the marshalls there are just salty that us gas snipers are so stealthy and have been mentally scarred from being hit from seemingly nowhere with no sound 🤣

Edited January 3, 2022 by Impulse

[Tackle]

22 minutes ago, Zigey said:

Looking at booking onto a site (acecombat) that I haven't been to before so of course I'm reading the rules like a good boy and I see this, 

"No CO2 weapons of any kind.

No gas snipers or DMR’s of any kind."

 

Now my sidearm is C02 and my new main is C02 as well so I'm feeling a little putout that id not be able to use them,

has anyone seen this rule before?

Is this common and I'm just a smuck for using C02?

 

Thanks hivemind

I'd not heard of sites with these exclusions before, I assume it's an insurance issue ? 

[EvilMonkee]

The old Mall didnt allow CO2 as far as I remember either.  Its because during summer its too hard to regulate.  FFZ is my local site and is well ran so never really had an issue with it

[Tommikka]

23 minutes ago, Impulse said:

…... Are they also banning HPA snipers / DMRs?

 

Also, what makes CO2 so bad? So many questions around this weird decision.

 

 

[SSPKali]

The thing is CO2 is less effected by temperature than the various propane-based "insert colour here" gas. I know that some places were worried about CO2 == twelfty brazillion fps, even when there are plenty of gnus out there (Cybergun 1911, CZ's, etc) than safely shoot sub 330fps on CO2. When I had my CO2 1911 I simply popped a fresh bulb in at the chrono and fired 3 test shots and never had an issue.

 

Sounds like lazy marshalling and/or a lack of basic physics / engineering

[Tommikka]

I would assume it’s because CO2 is unregulated and inconsistent

 

HPA is literally regulated - and consistent (that doesn’t mean that other factors don’t introduce inconsistency)

 

In scenario paintball many years ago a collective UKSPC (UK Scenario Paintball Community) along with a ‘standard’ set of minimum rules
The first event we ran in 2009 was the first UKSPC compliant event.

 

Within the rules the maximum velocities for an outdoor event was HPA=280fps, CO2 260fps (If my memory is right)

The reduced 260fps velocity was to allow for spiking between shots

 

I don’t think the rules fully defined chronographing and any penalties, but my rules are for a number of shots, and you must chrono CO2 within 260fps to begin the game.  If chronoed over on a spot check I would judge with an allowance for spiking - all over then I’m grumpy, one over then I’m nicer

[Zigey]

I've sent them a message on Facebook asking for an explanation but I'm not holding out much hope of a reply.

[Tommikka]

16 minutes ago, SSPKali said:

The thing is CO2 is less effected by temperature than the various propane-based "insert colour here" gas. I know that some places were worried about CO2 == twelfty brazillion fps, even when there are plenty of gnus out there (Cybergun 1911, CZ's, etc) than safely shoot sub 330fps on CO2. When I had my CO2 1911 I simply popped a fresh bulb in at the chrono and fired 3 test shots and never had an issue.

 

Sounds like lazy marshalling and/or a lack of basic physics / engineering

Back in the olden days, paintball co2 was generally intended to be used in its gaseous state - it would go liquid in the cylinder and the gun would ‘draw’ a measure of CO2 gas.

 

If the temperature dropped or you fired too rapidly then you would draw in liquid co2

 

Its been forgotten in the mists of time that some paintball guns were designed to run on liquid co2 (particularly in cold regions of the US & Canada)

To aid this ‘syphon’ tubes were often fitted inside the cylinder - a pipe weighted with a bolt etc to always sit on the bottom and draw liquid 

Conversely ‘anti syphon’ systems were fitted with a solid metal pipe bent upwards - If correctly fitted they would ensure co2 gas was drawn

As the years went by new players had no knowledge of the original difference ‘syphon’ and would ask for a ‘syphon’ tube to be fitted when an ‘anti syphon’ was required 

 

12gram bulbs are obviously much smaller and less likely to be as variable to a larger co2 cylinder, but it’s been know to happen.  I had a particular hard time with one pistol once which was giving very illegal velocities 

 

[Rogerborg]

My understanding of the reasoning applied at the Depot.

 

Q1) How many players are using CO2 pistols, Dan Wesson shell loading revolvers, and Mk23s with silencers?

A1) About 1 in 10.

 

Q2) How many players who we catch over the energy limit in-game are using CO2 pistols, Dan Wesson shell loading revolvers, and Mk23s with silencers?

A2) About 9 in 10.

 

No, that doesn't mean that 9 out of 10 of those owners are hot, just that if there are 10 boxes, and 1 of them is on fire, and you get in that box, then you're going to get hosed.

[EDcase]

Co2 pistols tend to be hot from my experience owning one and seeing others being used.

 

I'm not going to complain about Co2 pistols being banned since they tend to be used at close range and can get close to 400fps

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by EDcase

[Adolf Hamster]

sounds like they've decided banning hardware is the easy solution to the problem of asshole players

 

which fills me with confidence over the standard of play.....

[colinjallen]

CO2 weapons have been banned at Ace Combat for years, due to concerns about the potential for them to be overpowered on the first shot or two from a fresh bulb and about the potential for a gun suddenly going hot due to system problems.  Are those reasonable concerns? Discuss.

I cannot think why anyone would play there; it is a small, flat, boring site.

 

12 minutes ago, EDcase said:

Co2 pistols tend to be hot from my experience owning one and seeing others being used.

The higher quality ones have smaller valves to compensate for the much higher pressure but many shoot over 350fps.

 

I'm not going to complain about Co2 pistols being banned since they tend to be used at close range and can get up to 400fps

 

 

That is an argument for proper chronoing of CO2 pistols, not for banning them.

[concretesnail]

I've seen the rules in the past and in the end I just didn't play those sites.

It seems stupid idea in my opinion.

Hpa has tournament lockable regulators etc, just require those. As for co2 being over anything has the potential to be over if you adjust/build/modify it that way.

I have a co2 m9 I've used for winter and have done for years simply as it's much better at dealing with the cold than my green gas pistols at the time.

All I'd have suggested is that you contact them and ask for clarification and then vote with your feet/wallet one way or the other. Not all site owners/operators are the sharpest of tools or brightest of lights.

[EDcase]

6 minutes ago, colinjallen said:

CO2 weapons have been banned at Ace Combat for years, due to concerns about the potential for them to be overpowered on the first shot or two from a fresh bulb and about the potential for a gun suddenly going hot due to system problems.  Are those reasonable concerns? Discuss.

I cannot think why anyone would play there; it is a small, flat, boring site.

 

That is an argument for proper chronoing of CO2 pistols, not for banning them.

Yeah, but chrono time is already busy testing primaries so testing pistols as well could double that time.

[Zigey]

The only reason I could understand for banning co2 is as Tommikka points out is the risk of a "wet shot" spiking the power, whether or not this actually happens in modern airsoft rifs is another thing. 

All other reasons die at the crono. 

[EDcase]

Yeah, I can understand wanting to use Co2 for winter.

If you're sure its below limits then get it chrono'd at the site without saying its Co2 or use it anyway.  If you get banned then you haven't lost much.

[Adolf Hamster]

7 minutes ago, EDcase said:

Yeah, but chrono time is already busy testing primaries so testing pistols as well could double that time.

 

which isn't an excuse.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

When my lad started playing he bought a two tone CO2 pistol.

 

It must have been several sites in until it was chrono'd.  It was running at about 420-40fps on .2.  He had been using it at close quarters around buildings.  That was one of the reasons that we went back to that site and became regulars.  

 

No excuses for not checking secondaries!  

Edited January 3, 2022 by Tactical Pith Helmet
Last line added for clarity of meaning.

[colinjallen]

1 hour ago, EDcase said:

Yeah, but chrono time is already busy testing primaries so testing pistols as well could double that time.

True; however, that is for the site to deal with.

[EDcase]

2 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

which isn't an excuse.

1 hour ago, colinjallen said:

True; however, that is for the site to deal with.

 

Like I said, I'm not going to worry about it 😏

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by EDcase

[Tommikka]

9 hours ago, EDcase said:

Yeah, but chrono time is already busy testing primaries so testing pistols as well could double that time.

If it has not been chrono checked then it should not be used

If secondaries are not checked then no secondaries should be allowed 

 

When I began at scenario paintball events there were long queues at the chrono and air fill stations 

 

At the chrono people were checking, adjusting, checking, adjusting etc at a limited number of chrono points.

I bought my own handheld, chronoed myself and then went to the official chrono - it would be slightly out.  If I was a little below then I didn’t squeeze out adjustments for a few FPS, if high I would adjust and rechrono.

I also chronoed as soon as possible rather than dithering and chatting - the queues were always at their worst when the organisers were trying to herd the sheep to get games started 

Sites brought in more chronos so players can get through more quickly & tinkerers can tinker to one side, they standardised limits between events so players didn’t keep upping and lowering each week, players learnt that if they didn’t get their act together they were going to miss game on

 

A similar thing with air fills.  I began events with a 3000psi system, the big queues were at the 4500psi fill points.

When I ‘upgraded’ to 4500psi, rather than stand in the morning queue for 4500 I could get 3000, chrono and come back while others were still queuing 

Sites would then start up the fill stations earlier, bring in an extra air specialist for large events etc.  Players also learned to avoid queue bottle necks 

 

Airsoft in the UK existed when I began paintball, there are seemingly more regular airsofters than regular paintballers - it should be better organised

Either we don’t talk about the ‘good’ ones and the ‘bad’ ones don’t care / have not learned the lessons yet 

[Cannonfodder]

My old site had a ban on CO2 and HPA. Why? No idea and tbh I don't really care why as I wasn't running the games. At the end of the day its down to site owners to decide what rules the do and don't want to implement. If people don't like a site's rules then don't play there rather than moaning about it online 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Cannonfodder

[Dratsab]

14 hours ago, EDcase said:

If you're sure its below limits then get it chrono'd at the site without saying its Co2 or use it anyway.  If you get banned then you haven't lost much.

 

Not sure encouraging players to break site rules (no matter how ridiculous you believe that rule to be) and just accept a ban if/when it happens is a good look.

 

Everyone should play by the rules if you don't like the rules find another site. It's pretty simple.