Site Banned all C02

[EDcase]

I didn't encourage anything.   Just pointing out options that anyone can think of whether they admit to them or not.

Saying someone could walk off a cliff doesn't encourage people to do so...

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by EDcase

[Dratsab]

Scratch that

 

There was no use of "could" It's a clear suggestion

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Dratsab

[EDcase]

Just now, Dratsab said:

Ahhh I see, this is now an exercise in pedantry.

Yup 🤪

[Keldon]

One of my local sites sentinel has these rules. No CO2, no DMR and no snipers.

 

DMR and snipers is because the ranges, which are short to med so no need for such RIF's.

 

Now CO2 is because of insurance and not a so much a site rule, but a rule enforced on them. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Keldon
Spelling error

[Cannonfodder]

That's a good point about insurance. As much as folk like to call site owners either lazy or stupid for having these rules, for all we know they could have their hands tied by the insurance company

[Adolf Hamster]

Just now, Cannonfodder said:

That's a good point about insurance. As much as folk like to call site owners either lazy or stupid for having these rules, for all we know they could have their hands tied by the insurance company

 

the skeptic in me does wonder how often this is genuinely an insurance requirement rather than a hand-waving exercise.

 

because if the insurance were going into such specifics then it'd be more than just co2 on the list to be banned.

[Groot]

Sites banning HPA?

[Impulse]

51 minutes ago, Keldon said:

One of my local sites sentinel has these rules. No CO2, no DMR and no snipers.

 

DMR and snipers is because the ranges, which are short to med so no need for such RIF's.

 

Now CO2 is because of insurance and not a so much a site rule, but a rule enforced on them. 

 

Ah, but what about weirdos like me who use "snipers" and "DMRs" that are 1.1J for no MED shenanigans? 

[MagpieTactical]

15 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

which isn't an excuse.

Agreed, my site chrono all sidearm too.  I can't think of what legal defense a site would have if someone got badly hurt by an overpowered unchronoed pistol 

[Rogerborg]

5 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Either we don’t talk about the ‘good’ ones and the ‘bad’ ones don’t care / have not learned the lessons yet

 

Winds me up a treat when "Chrono is open" means most of the marshal team sitting in the office bantering while the newest recruit is sent out with one unit and sometimes no real understanding of what he's doing.  What I'd like to see is it being done mob handed, including scouring the safe zone to at least try and spot people who are treating it as optional.  Less matey-mate-mates, more zero-tolerance, maximum-deterrence.

 

Even at better sites, there's far too little checking at game-on to spot stuff that's been "forgotten", and as @EDcase unpalatably but correctly points out, even blanket bans are only as good as the in-game enforcement.

 

Blanket bans are like dog breed specific legislation.  Unfair, overly general, punish the decent majority, it's the owner, not the weapon (dog), and so on.

 

But on the other hand, when a dog rips Little Timmy to bits while its owner says "Bloodslaya wouldn't hurt a fly, soft as butter" and it's a pit bull every time, eventually you spot a pattern.

[Druid799]

Black ops Bristol used to have a Co2 ban(don’t know about now as it’s being run by new management) in place due to the vagaries you can have with the fps output , where as ‘traditional’ gas guns generally seem to run more consistently and on the whole do seem to run a lower FPS than the Co2 pistols . So just made life easier all around .

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

That's a good point about insurance. As much as folk like to call site owners either lazy or stupid for having these rules, for all we know they could have their hands tied by the insurance company

 

2 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

the skeptic in me does wonder how often this is genuinely an insurance requirement rather than a hand-waving exercise.

 

because if the insurance were going into such specifics then it'd be more than just co2 on the list to be banned.

Good points there on insurance 

 

It is a two way street - Insurers dictating insurance requirements into site rules / policies

 

Site rules / policies set based on risk assessments and mitigations

 

Or they could/should be a two (or multi) way street …….
 

Best practice bottom up from sites, through a representative body to insurers 

and then from insurers to sites

 

The principles will be the same - airsoft is a game of shooting people with little plastic balls using suitably designed airsoft guns in an appropriate environment 

That environment ought to have controls between safe areas, playing areas, and without the general public strolling along 

Woodland, urban, indoor, etc are all different with their own complexities 

Individual sites vary as well  

 

Does a site and its staff understand why things are in the insurance/risk assessment/rules, or did they just purchase insurance? …… and therefore do they put the processes into practice or give them lip service with a waiver form?

[EDcase]

Insurance bans are either due to incidents where they had to make large payouts or where they judge a high risk of such.

So if its due to insurance bans there's not much sites can do.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by EDcase

[Tommikka]

Did the insurer or the site react to something specific regarding co2?

 

 I certainly reacted for a moment when propane was mentioned earlier in the thread.
Then I remembered that ‘green gas’ is propane 

 

Why did I react initially ?  Because I imagined someone using a pot metal airsoft gun with little explosions of propane ignition —— I don’t fancy being around that

(((((However I do know of the Tippman C3, a paintball gun - which ignites propane))))

[enzo47]

Got this rule at my local site. Its a Cqb site so they dont allow snipers and dmr or any rifle over 350 fps.  Any Co2 are also not allowed. I was told it was due to insurance. They classed co2 as being a airgun not airsoft so that makes insurance void. 

 

Im myself looking for other sites that dont have this restrictions. which are not woodlands but more urban settings

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Well, at my home site, no chrono equals no play, so there's no dodging. Gnu cable tied to mark it as Chrono'd, with different colour each week so there's no funny business.

 

Can understand why it's banned if its an insurance thing. A shame really but money and litigation talks; if insurer says no, then that's the end of it...

 

The way I see it, without meaning to sound harsh... if it's enough of an issue, go elsewhere.

[Rogerborg]

I'd assume ignorance rather than a higher level of information on the part of insurers.

 

But to be fair, there are a fair number of CO2 pistols that do come in super-spicy, and let's remember that the people discussing this here are very much the exception rather than the rule as far as airsoft players go.  How many times have we seen new players ask "What BBs to get under 350fps?" or similar?

 

I like to use the What Would Ex-Workmate Eddy Do? test as my litmus test for a typical player.  He's never set his own hops, doesn't know what his G&G CM16 or green gas R17 are shooting at, just that they pass chrono, and has asked me over and over whether his pistol is CO2 or not (it's gas, and CO2 is a gas, right?).  He's not dumb (he's actually very smart), or dishonest: he's just completely uninterested in any of these things compared to pulling the trigger.

 

And it's not just players that are the issue.  I've heard a marshal at a (defunct) site say quite openly that his job is to get players through chrono, not to stop them.  I heard him telling his mates that if they loaded 0.4g then he wouldn't know any different and he could honestly say that he'd seen them come out at under 350fps.  Seems like a curious form of integrity, but I doubt that it's unique.

 

Given all that, I can see why some sites or insurers just say no on anything that's likely to run hot.

[kasaran]

3 hours ago, enzo47 said:

They classed co2 as being a airgun not airsoft so that makes insurance void. 

 

 

I think insurance requirements based on this is probably fairly likely.  Plenty or risk assessments are lazy copy paste jobs and i can imagine someone who knows airguns wouldnt care to learn the difference when the power source is the same. 

 

Had my employer argue with a larger company's H&S for requireing 6 point ppe to run a gps across a farmers field.  at what point is a hard hat necessary among dog walkers? we knew they couldnt come up with a valid justification when they then refered to it as a uniform for the project.... because ppe items have to be relevant to the task, and they couldnt be arsed to amend the ppe to the specific tasks on the scheme....

[Ebeneezer Goode]

If RAs are copy and paste jobs they aren't fit for purpose nor legally correct. Sounds like someone couldn't be arsed updating their RA which makes an arse out of the whole thing.

 

I do RAs as part of my job, in each case risks have to be identified, rated and mitigated appropriately as much as reasonably practical. Banning everything on a blanket basis or copy and pasting is never an option.

 

The problem is, all too often H&S/RAs are used as a justification to stop stuff if someone wants an excuse to stop stuff happening or can't be arsed doing something.

[Rogerborg]

9 minutes ago, Ebeneezer Goode said:

If RAs are copy and paste jobs they aren't fit for purpose nor legally correct.

 

SAFETY DATA SHEET DE-IONISED WATER

 

EYE CONTACT Immediately flush with plenty of water for up to 15 minutes.

 

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/416313.pdf

[Ebeneezer Goode]

11 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

SAFETY DATA SHEET DE-IONISED WATER

 

EYE CONTACT Immediately flush with plenty of water for up to 15 minutes.

 

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/416313.pdf

As ridiculous as it seems, deionised water lacks the salt in normal tears and exposure, apparently, can cause irritation and inflammation. Its also not guaranteed to be sterile.

 

Over zealous yes, borderline farcical, but there it is.

 

Best one I heard was during last year. Safety notice put out regarding hand sanitiser. Genuine one in a million case. Apparently someone sanitised their hands, didnt allow it to dry first, touched metal and the static shock ignited the sanitiser causing serious burns...

[Rogerborg]

10 minutes ago, Ebeneezer Goode said:

As ridiculous as it seems, deionised water lacks the salt in normal tears

 

What sort of salty water would you flush it with?

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Exactly!

[Fatboy40]

42 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

What sort of salty water would you flush it with?

 

The tears of those no longer able to use CO2 😉

[colinjallen]

9 hours ago, Keldon said:

One of my local sites sentinel has these rules. No CO2, no DMR and no snipers.

 

DMR and snipers is because the ranges, which are short to med so no need for such RIF's.

 

Now CO2 is because of insurance and not a so much a site rule, but a rule enforced on them. 

Going back through our insurance documents, there is no mention of CO2.  One clause that did always intrigue me was this one in one of the documents:

11) any site storing, issuing or selling pyrotechnics must have a current “Registered Premises Licence” issued under the requirements of the Explosives Act, 1875 and 1923.