Acceptable rates of fire

[Cannonfodder]

I've never been a fan of banning things as the issue is usually the soft fleshy bit holding it. I'd rather sites booted those who act like twats, whether it's not calling hits, overshooting or something else 

[Druid799]

Dragon Valley run all their games limited ammo (or did last time I played there) only allowed to carry 600rds on you but you can go back to safezone to bomb up . Support guns 2000rds BUT it’s only classified as a support gun if there is a real world equivalent, so no claiming “this is my support gun !” As you stand there with your M4 pistol and a drum mag ! 🤦‍♂️

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Druid799 said:

only allowed to carry 600rds on you

 

More-what-you-call-guidelines-than-actual-rules?

[Impulse]

I'd love ammo limits, but you won't get them for the mostpart in casual skirmish weekends. I typically only run about 150 BBs in my VSR or 350 BBs in my m21, plus 125 BBs in a pistol or 250 BBs in the mp7, depending on what I'm carrying, so my maximum loadout of BBs at any one time is going to be 600 BBs (m21 + mp7 combination). Once I get my standard rifleman setup done, that will only be carrying about 175 BBs because GBBR magazines are small, so ammo limits never affect me since it's my normal way of playing.

 

However, as I said, you won't get them in skirmish games, as skirmish is supposed to be accessible to everyone. This includes both the speedy 14 year old with his m4 pistol and drum mag and the super-serious-milsim-tacticool-oper8r with his gucci gear and NGRS and real cap magazines.

[TheFull9]

Tbh, I think in the game of airsoft which is literally 100% based on honest hit calling by players on themselves, saying that something in terms of a rule is a fruitless endeavour is a pretty bad logical fallacy.  Everything aspect of every action that every player takes on the field is constrained by (first) governmental laws then there's a thick layer of rules set down by the skirmish site layered on top of those.

 

Yes some are harder to enforce than others but there's already loads that are common and accepted yet are hard to enforce.  The vast majority of people follow them the vast majority of the time.

 

I've also played a site that had an ammo limit at all times and when it came out in the safety brief I watched a lot of hi-caps go back in bags.  Was one of my favourite sites that I re-visited quite often (by my standards).  Would people break the rule?  For sure, but unless you think a simple rule like any mentioned in this thread will make the gameplay worse then I'd propose there's not a strong case to object to it within the framework of this hobby.

[Tackle]

Ultimately cheats will always cheat, & dicks will be dicks. 

 

 

& too many sites are only interested in chasing pound notes than enforcing rules, even their own ☹️

[TheFull9]

100% they will and I could always be wrong.  But if you're willingly entering in to a recreational activity the probability is that you have a desire to engage in the game within the rules set down by the organisers and I think that applies to an especially high level in your average weekend skirmish given there is no prize to the 'winner' (if there even is an announced winner).  That's probably why the most competitive players who for some reason really want to win the fake Sunday battle and run around with a HPA'd drum mag Hi-Capa are often perceived to be the most likely to cheat and be dicks - whether they are or not I have no evidence to say.

 

Maybe if we got rid of all other rules and just upped a walk-on fee to at least £35-45 and sites became a lot happier to boot people we'd see a big improvement?  Maybe not though if someone was further financially invested in their game than usual.  But then if more marshals could be hired and they were better compensated for their time... swings + roundabouts.

 

End of the day safety actually is the number 1 priority and not over-shooting is very important in that regard.  The one thing I don't think is the answer is just to say 'fuck it nothing will work or change' and not try anything.  I'd go as far to say I'm confident in that regard, but some folks will say the problem isn't large enough and that is purely a personal perception matter and impossible to reconcile for most people.

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, TheFull9 said:

But if you're willingly entering in to a recreational activity the probability is that you have a desire to engage in the game within the rules set down by the organisers

 

My problem with airsoft remains the number of people who are not there primarily to play airsoft.

 

If they were, they wouldn't have to be nagged, cajoled and herded out of the safe zone game after game after game.

 

Whether it's socialising, geardo-peacocking, clowning for an audience, or whatever other reason, I generally have a better day hanging out with enthusiastic rentals or new players keen to know what they ought to be doing, rather than regulars who have firmly fixed ideas which can often vary wildly from the briefing that they've just talked over.

[Tackle]

22 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

My problem with airsoft remains the number of people who are not there primarily to play airsoft.

 

If they were, they wouldn't have to be nagged, cajoled and herded out of the safe zone game after game after game.

 

Whether it's socialising, geardo-peacocking, clowning for an audience, or whatever other reason, I generally have a better day hanging out with enthusiastic rentals or new players keen to know what they ought to be doing, rather than regulars who firmly fixed ideas which can often vary wildly from the briefing that they've just talked over.

Spot on, I played at an old power station in Kent years ago, great morning session, broke for lunch & approx 30 min later the organiser asks for everyones attention, turned around thinking it's the briefing for the next session, next thing stripper music comes on & some bird starts taking her kit off, I turned my back on it & got back to getting my kit in order, at which point I teammate nudges me & says "oy tack, you gone gay", I tell him "I've come to play, not watch some ropey tart get her kit off, there's a time & a place for this crap", load up & head outside. 

Point is, gamedays are for playing, sure you can have some bantz when doing it but hanging around for anything that doesn't involve shooting peeps, not my bag, & if a sites not on top of this, I usually don't go back 😏

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

1 hour ago, TheFull9 said:

Maybe if we got rid of all other rules and just upped a walk-on fee to at least £35-45 and sites became a lot happier to boot people we'd see a big improvement? 

I think you're close to bang-on here, but I'd reframe it as being more happy to educate/address issues without thinking about specific rulesets (with banning as a follow-up solution)

 

That is - take this situation as an example, someone spamming some rentals with a high-ROF RIF. It might not be in the site's ruleset to prohibit over a certain ROF but most sites will certainly have the guidance about not being a dick, and so on. With that in mind a marshall should feel equipped and supported to go over and say "Hey, we've got no problems with the RIF in question but when you're firing really long bursts it's meaning the rental players here aren't having a great time and some are thinking of leaving. You'll need to stick to shorter bursts or semi from now".

 

The other half of the remediation is to show/explain to the rentals how suppression is effective, in general, in spite of ROF. But with rental timidity, a lack of understanding and so on they're probably not aware of how effective they can be at the same time - perhaps not to the same effect as the high ROF chaps but a little bit of education and encouragement for them to get stuck in could help change their attitude massively. Take off the hi-viz, take out a rental RIF and get stuck in with them for 10 minutes, being the "gunner" for the squad while they maneuvre through your suppressive fire.

 

One big caveat is that this takes a lot of work from a site/marshal team - but I think it's what should be expected, from players, and when I've seen it done it's often at the best run sites. But it's one of the best ways to get around issues without needing to create Rule32 Subsection B (iii) in the process that might put off future players, add complexity, yada yada.

[Davegolf]

Id happily pay that but needs to be banging hot food available FOC

 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Tackle said:

"there's a time & a place for this crap"

 

Quite right, you wouldn't whip your Glock out at the local Club Chlamydia.

 

Good point about the dick-rule covering this issue, and it all being down to proactive, constructive marshalling.

 

One thing I'd pick up on is the belief that it's OK to flip the wankergun-switch to punish an OMG CHEETAR.  It doesn't solve the underlying problem.  I'm not saying that it's not funny and satisfying to do so, just be honest about why you're doing it.  You're only making the situation worse by escalating it.

 

On the ultimate sanction, I'd like to see a lot more players getting hoofed right out of the hobby, whether it's for persistent cheating, cheat calling, or wanker-gunning.  I'd be willing to bet that regularly inviting the most toxic player of the day to not come back would pay off in terms of the potential players that get silently lost because of them.  Hard to quantify though.

[Adolf Hamster]

16 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

On the ultimate sanction, I'd like to see a lot more players getting hoofed right out of the hobby, whether it's for persistent cheating, cheat calling, or wanker-gunning.  I'd be willing to bet that regularly inviting the most toxic player of the day to not come back would pay off in terms of the potential players that get silently lost because of them.  Hard to quantify though.

 

i can agree there, that's what's largely driven me away from the hobby, the fun bits become routine yet the annoying aspects get no less annoying. kinda arrived at the conclusion that it'll never change as long as this is a sport played by humans.

[Sneaky]

I like to have a ROF similar to the real steel, but then 95% of the time, I use semi or two round burst.

 

I have played against others with all sorts of ridiculous rates of fire and I think fair enough if that is what they want.

 

Even funnier taking these players out with no need for over kill.

[Jedi_Master]

1 hour ago, Davegolf said:

Id happily pay that but needs to be banging hot food available FOC

 

 

Decent toilets always outweigh food. Clean, toilet roll and soap trumps some dodgy hotdog.  Bringing your own food will possibly even remove any desperate need of the site toilet facilities.

[Davegolf]

Have a turn out before you arrive all’s good 😊

I heard dirty burgers are good for your biome 👀

[Druid799]

8 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

More-what-you-call-guidelines-than-actual-rules?

No it’s the rule .

[Rogerborg]

34 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

No it’s the rule .

 

I meant, is it actually enforced?

 

Not a huge deal, it's just that I have much the same concern about chrono, that it only takes a few rogues to spoil it for everyone.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

3 hours ago, Sneaky said:

I like to have a ROF similar to the real steel, but then 95% of the time, I use semi or two round burst.

The PPSh has a fearsome rate of fire, at 1250 rpm.  That's 20.8 per second.  Sounds about right for airsoft to me too tbh.  

 

 

[EDcase]

This topic has come up a few times already 😉

 

In my ideal dream world, airsoft pews would have the same rof as their real counterparts.  This would mean there would be actual reasons to choose particular models and there wouldn't be any stupid 30+ rates.

 

Of course it's just a dream... 😟

[Davegolf]

I agree realistic ROF would make weapon choice all the more purposeful.

Vectors for hosing 😁

[PopRocket123]

8 hours ago, EDcase said:

This topic has come up a few times already 😉

 

In my ideal dream world, airsoft pews would have the same rof as their real counterparts.  This would mean there would be actual reasons to choose particular models and there wouldn't be any stupid 30+ rates.

 

Of course it's just a dream... 😟

Suddenly everyone wants a G11

[Rogerborg]

25 minutes ago, PopRocket123 said:

Suddenly everyone wants a G11

 

"Suddenly"?  Got to be one of the most wish-listed ever.  I'm surprised nobody has come up with a bodykit.

 

Imagine the ignominy of being bayonetted by Kraut Space Magic.  

 

[Captain Darling]

Without exception the most entertaining airsoft games I've played over the last 16 years have been limited ammo games.  I know that won't float on an open day, but I get by just fine with real cap mags, and internally deride the tactical maracas bunch.

 

 

[ak2m4]

 

18 hours ago, Tackle said:

Spot on, I played at an old power station in Kent years ago, great morning session, broke for lunch & approx 30 min later the organiser asks for everyones attention, turned around thinking it's the briefing for the next session, next thing stripper music comes on & some bird starts taking her kit off, I turned my back on it & got back to getting my kit in order, at which point I teammate nudges me & says "oy tack, you gone gay", I tell him "I've come to play, not watch some ropey tart get her kit off, there's a time & a place for this crap", load up & head outside. 

Point is, gamedays are for playing, sure you can have some bantz when doing it but hanging around for anything that doesn't involve shooting peeps, not my bag, & if a sites not on top of this, I usually don't go back 😏

 

I was there as well on that day, ShadopOpz at Richborough.  It was the most surreal thing ever.  Stripper parts at the end 🙂