Macks airsoft dreamers of the week thread

[Cannonfodder]

An extra £100 for tech work that's already been done? 

[Rogerborg]

Oh, Lord, are techs actually going with "upgrade tiers", like in Call of Modern Tarkov Duty?

 

[BigStew]

Trying to figure this out is seller under the impression that the cost of the work carried out adds value to the gun? If that's how it works I vastly under charged on the last car I sold I spent thousands on labour on that thing.

[RostokMcSpoons]

17 minutes ago, BigStew said:

Trying to figure this out is seller under the impression that the cost of the work carried out adds value to the gun? If that's how it works I vastly under charged on the last car I sold I spent thousands on labour on that thing.

 

It's an interesting question.  When it comes to cars, getting a timing belt replaced can be a major job where the belt costs sod-all, but the engine-out nature of the work adds up to a lot of man-hours and a big expense.  So having that work already done on an older car is definitely a selling point that adds to the price.
Of course in the car world cosmetic mods usually add feck-all value (and can even detract) whereas in airsoft the bling often gets the bucks   So not necessarily comparable.  Especially as many of us will be willing to give anything a go ourselves.

I would say the Dave's custom packages have a clearly defined, easy to understand set of parts, which in turn makes that labour charge more understandable... plus Dave's upgrades are pretty expensive. 
 

So to me I can understand why this chap is trying to punt at a high price.  Someone uncomfortable with doing their own tech and who doesn't trust other bedroom techs to do a good job might find this appealing - and worth the outlay.

That might be a very small target audience - but he only needs one...!

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by RostokMcSpoons

[Adolf Hamster]

16 minutes ago, BigStew said:

Trying to figure this out is seller under the impression that the cost of the work carried out adds value to the gun? If that's how it works I vastly under charged on the last car I sold I spent thousands on labour on that thing.

 

it can be subjective, if they're name dropping a tech that the buyer deems as reputable (ie that their work will actually improve performance) then it can, but that'll depend a lot on the buyers experience with that tech.

 

i don't know dave's reputation well enough to comment wether or not that applies in this case.

[Rogerborg]

32 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

So having [the timing belt done] on an older car is definitely a selling point that adds to the price.

 

If you can find someone who understands that, and they're choosing between two otherwise equivalent cars, and they think that the extra you're asking is worth it.

 

Trying to flog a 10 year old car for essentially the same price as a new one because half the parts on it are under 10 years old and it's got a dustbin exhaust is... optimistic.

 

 

32 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

That might be a very small target audience - but he only needs one...!

 

But you do have to find one.

 

I don't grudge people trying to find their unicorn buyer, but while they wait and wait and wait I'm going to 🍿 it out.

 

[Druid799]

On 10/01/2022 at 11:56, RostokMcSpoons said:

 

It's an interesting question.  When it comes to cars, getting a timing belt replaced can be a major job where the belt costs sod-all, but the engine-out nature of the work adds up to a lot of man-hours and a big expense.  So having that work already done on an older car is definitely a selling point that adds to the price.
Of course in the car world cosmetic mods usually add feck-all value (and can even detract) whereas in airsoft the bling often gets the bucks   So not necessarily comparable.  Especially as many of us will be willing to give anything a go ourselves.

I would say the Dave's custom packages have a clearly defined, easy to understand set of parts, which in turn makes that labour charge more understandable... plus Dave's upgrades are pretty expensive. 
 

So to me I can understand why this chap is trying to punt at a high price.  Someone uncomfortable with doing their own tech and who doesn't trust other bedroom techs to do a good job might find this appealing - and worth the outlay.

That might be a very small target audience - but he only needs one...!

 

Now the problem with this comment is your applying real world expectations to Airsofting , when you take your car to a ‘reputable’ garage you have an expectation of an appropriate level of work being done AND an expectation of recourse if it isn’t ?
Where as with Airsofting there’s a VERY VERY good chance even from supposed ‘reputable’ techs and retailers your going to receive a gun back that appear to have been work on by a monkey with Alzheimer’s , AND when you do try to complain you’ll be told either ;

A, “it must have happened transit”

B, “you must have done something to it after receiving it back”

or C, “how dare you question our tech teams work !” 🤦‍♂️

Just saying 😉

[Adolf Hamster]

21 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

Now the problem with this comment is your applying real world expectations to Airsofting , when you take your car to a ‘reputable’ garage you have an expectation of an appropriate level of work being done AND an expectation of recourse if it isn’t ?
Where as with Airsofting there’s a VERY VERY good chance even from supposed ‘reputable’ techs and retailers your going to receive a gun back that appear to have been work on by a monkey with Alzheimer’s , AND when you do try to complain you’ll be told either ;

A, “it must have happened transit”

B, “you must have done something to it after receiving it back”

or C, “how dare you question our tech teams work !” 🤦‍♂️

Just saying 😉

 

tbh i don't think it's that ridiculous a comparison, i mean the car world does have plenty of examples of cowboy mechanics doing sub-par work, people "improving" their cars (you know the type- cars that ground out if you leave a penny in the road and belch more smoke than a russian carrier every time they pull away) etc.

 

airsoft teching is basically what car repairs/modifications would be like without the likes of the MOT system and related enforcement......

[Druid799]

37 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

tbh i don't think it's that ridiculous a comparison, i mean the car world does have plenty of examples of cowboy mechanics doing sub-par work, people "improving" their cars (you know the type- cars that ground out if you leave a penny in the road and belch more smoke than a russian carrier every time they pull away) etc.

 

airsoft teching is basically what car repairs/modifications would be like without the likes of the MOT system and related enforcement......

Don’t disagree just as many cowboys (if not more) in the motor trade , point I was making is that for some unknown reason Airsofters seem a lot more acceptant of shoddy tech work than most others are simply because of the ‘reputation’ of said tech ?

[Adolf Hamster]

21 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

Don’t disagree just as many cowboys (if not more) in the motor trade , point I was making is that for some unknown reason Airsofters seem a lot more acceptant of shoddy tech work than most others are simply because of the ‘reputation’ of said tech ?

 

Tbf, the grassroots and informal nature of this hobby has a lot to do with it.

 

All you need to be a tech is to convince people to pay for your work, and all you need to be a reputable tech is to have enough people convinced that the work is an improvement.

 

Mix in the combination of customers who dont check the work, after all if you posess the skills/knowledge to check then you more than likely just do it yourself.

 

Just sprinkle on some confirmation bias and there you have it.

[RostokMcSpoons]

I think this has gotten away a little from the point I was trying to make (but to other interesting points worthy of their own discussion....)

 

And that point is really that in some cases the time spent / paid for carries its own residual value.

Perhaps what I didn't make clear is I acknowledge that there's plenty that don't.

 

So the timing chain example.   Most of that work is labour.   There's a risk in a car when that expense hasn't made and the car reaches a certain mileage that if the belt snaps through wear then the engine can seize, and you need a new engine for £2-3K.   So a reasonably savvy buyer looks out for whether the work has been done, and is willing to pay something of a premium for it.

Sure there'll be buyers who don't know, and some buyers who could try to do the job themselves, but most will be in the middle - I'd say once you're in a market for a used car with > 60-70k miles on the clock and you've watched a YT buyers guide, you'll know about it to at least ask if it's been done and factor that in to your purchasing decision. 
(I've just been there, done that, but ran out of money for the t-shirt)

 

However with that same car, stuff like brake pads, oil changes etc ... they carry their own labour charges.  Is that likely to hold much sway in my buying decision?  Probably not. 

If the previous owner has spent a hundred hours tuning his car so it's perfect, will I pay extra for his labour(s)?  Nah.   

 

Dave's custom stuff comes with a clear shopping list of components, and as a level 3 upgrade basically seems to touch every component then again a reasonably savvy buyer might well be willing to pay above the going rate for a 'shop done' upgrade, rather than having some unknown part-timer meddle with the innards.

I'd consider the Dave's custom work to be very much an outlier because the work's been done to a fresh gun, out the shop.   I'm in that area though where it seems to have value to me but I don't know how real that value actually is.

 

TL;DR:

Present me with the option to buy one of two guns - one upgraded at a shop I'd already heard of, versus one upgraded with the same parts, by Mr X at a game site.   I would be prepared to pay more for the shop gun.   
If it's Mr X versus Mr Y doing the upgrades, I'm not going to be considering their labour to have any particular intrinsic / residual value.

 

[Rogerborg]

22 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

So a reasonably savvy buyer looks out for whether the work has been done, and is willing to pay something of a premium for it.

 

I'd consider myself one, but wouldn't pay extra for it, for the simple reason that with the mileage that I do, it's not worth my money to pay for it on a low value car that's already done enough miles to warrant it.  I'd rather just save the money and take the risk.

 

Likewise with airsoft guns.  Consider how little use a typical airsoft gun gets, and how much difference expensive work makes, using an honest self audit.  You can upgrade it to Tier Eleventy, and that might buy you an an extra few dozen hits out of the thousands of rounds that you'll put through it in a year.  Meanwhile Hicap Harry is having just as much fun hosing BBs downrange making very close to the same hits per shot, game or hour.

 

 

22 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Present me with the option to buy one of two guns - one upgraded at a shop I'd already heard of, versus one upgraded with the same parts, by Mr X at a game site.   I would be prepared to pay more for the shop gun. 

 

I might pay more for one that shoots empirically better when I try it.  Based on a claimed parts list, not so much.

 

This is why we test drive cars, especially used and Barried examples to see if they live up to the claims of Real Ultimate Power.

 

What's amazing to me is that so many airsofters are prepared to pay a premium to be sent a gun shaped shell, that could, de facto, have pretty much anything or nothing inside it.

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Nail on head as always @Rogerborg.

[RostokMcSpoons]

12 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I'd consider myself one, but wouldn't pay extra for it, for the simple reason that with mileage that I do, it's not worth my money to pay for it on a low value car that's already done enough miles to warrant it.  I'd rather just save the money and take the risk.

 

Yeah, well having just bought a car that is at 70k miles, and that's not had the work done - but was a great price, then I understand you entirely.  I would've have paid a bit extra if the next car on the showroom floor had been attended to.  So we'll agree to differ on that !

 

12 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Likewise with airsoft guns.  Consider how little use a typical airsoft gun gets, and how much difference expensive upgrades make, using an honest self audit.  You can upgrade it to Tier Eleventy, and that might buy you an an extra few dozen hits out of the thousands of rounds that you'll put through it in a year.  Meanwhile Hicap Harry is having just as much fun hosing BBs downrange for very close to the same hits per shot, game or hour.

 

Oh my word that would be a great discussion to have!  Absolutely true, but yet you know what human psychology is like, remembering the times you got out-ranged by a gun in a straight one on one shoot out tends to get the credit card info action later... 🥴

 

12 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I might pay more for one that shoots empirically better when I try it.  Based on a claimed parts list, not so much.

 

This is why we test drive cars, especially used and Barried examples to see if they live up to the claims of Real Ultimate Power.

 

What's amazing to me is that so many airsofters are prepared to pay a premium to be sent a gun shaped shell, that could, de facto, have pretty much anything or nothing inside it.

 

Yeah there is an assumption on my part that Dave's custom shop knows what they're doing and aren't out to fool anyone.  I'm trusting shops I've heard of already.  Maybe I shouldn't 😋.

But you wouldn't walk into say Singers custom cars and demand they prove they fitted the parts they say have into their restomod Porsches.  At some point a company gets a reputation sufficient that you can trust them.  It's a question of where you draw the line

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

But you wouldn't walk into say Singers custom cars and demand they prove they fitted the parts they say have into their restomod Porsches.  At some point a company gets a reputation sufficient that you can trust them.  It's a question of where you draw the line

 

Oh, to clarify, what I really meant is that we tend to buy a private seller's claim about what they're selling.  Even if they provide a real, legitimate receipt for work that was done, and parts that were fitted to something, unless you strip the toy down, how would you be sure that what you've been sent is actually the thing that's described in that receipt?

 

Honesty among BB-bros?  Well, the BT33 postcode is a thing.  And some sellers might be flogging on a pig in a poke that was mis-sold to them, or genuinely forgotten what's in there, or got one of their dozen or so spare toys mixed up. I mean, we see some sellers list what they think they're probably selling, which I find refreshingly honest.

 

If you're happy with what you receive, great, that's the whole point of airsoft.  I just wonder how much stuff gets sold as "Tier 3" when it never was, or isn't still.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

There is a Harley dealership near me.

 

Stage 1 Tune: new airfilter and jet that lets it run rich.

 

Stage 2: Filter, jet and cheap loud pipes.  Jets are fitted one size does all.  Lottery on 100% correct mixture.  

 

Stage 3: Jets, filter and pipes fitted by an actual mechanic rather than the apprentice/tea boy/work experience lad, who then gets bike Dyno-ed and gas tested.  Hurrah!

 

A mate makes a decent living tuning them as they have been paid to be tuned.  Those that know their tuners know him.  

 

A wise buyer tests all bikes supplied by them with fresh plugs and chops them...

 

(Since they are now all EFI this comment only applied pre-2016-ish.  Damn this Alzheimer's...)  

 

Anyhow, how much you pay usually relates to how much you both beforehand, and at testing (if possible) and are willing to gamble on the honesty and abilities of the buyer. 

 

Then again spending large amount tends to be more impulsive not less.  It's complex stuff.  

[Rogerborg]

Harley were fined bigly for flogging so many not-road-legal tuning kits for their potato bikes that it was clear that they were effectively viewed as necessary equipment by owners.

 

There's a reasonable analogy there to the number of airsoft owners who ask "wut upgrayedds need b4 play?" while their new toy is still in transit to them.

 

I've upgrayedded my toys for the personal pleasure of the process, not because I believe that it substantially increases my winr8.

 

I realise that other opinions are available and that this explains why Tier 3 toys are offered for, and sometimes bought at, a significant premium over the stock examples.

 

It does continue to baffle me though.

 

8 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

Then again spending large amount tends to be more impulsive not less.  It's complex stuff.  

 

I suspect this is a big factor.  The thrill is more about the buy and unboxing than the ownership or play experience.  The bigger the number, the bigger the buzz.

 

#NotAllBigSpenders, obviously.

[Lozart]

On 11/01/2022 at 22:59, RostokMcSpoons said:

Dave's custom stuff comes with a clear shopping list of components, and as a level 3 upgrade basically seems to touch every component then again a reasonably savvy buyer might well be willing to pay above the going rate for a 'shop done' upgrade, rather than having some unknown part-timer meddle with the innards.

I'd consider the Dave's custom work to be very much an outlier because the work's been done to a fresh gun, out the shop.   I'm in that area though where it seems to have value to me but I don't know how real that value actually is.

 

TL;DR:

Present me with the option to buy one of two guns - one upgraded at a shop I'd already heard of, versus one upgraded with the same parts, by Mr X at a game site.   I would be prepared to pay more for the shop gun.   
If it's Mr X versus Mr Y doing the upgrades, I'm not going to be considering their labour to have any particular intrinsic / residual value.

 

 

I agree that the value of someones time to upgrade their own gun is irrelevant once the time comes to sell it on.

 

However, assuming that a DCS Tier 3 upgrade is great because it changes everything in the gun is folly. There is a reason why every time someone comes on this forum and says "I've just bought this what upgrades does it need" the response is almost always "use it first and see what it needs". Changing everything just for the sake of saying it's an upgrade is NOT the same as blueprinting an engine, regardless of what the person trying to charge £1000 to upgrade a £200 gun might tell you.

 

As fr the TL:DR, I present option 3 - buy the gun off the shelf and do the upgrades yourself.

[Rogerborg]

9 hours ago, Lozart said:

assuming that a DCS Tier 3 upgrade is great because it changes everything in the gun is folly

 

Should be fine from an reputable shop, if it's done by an experienced tech rather than some trainee, and if they've done loads of the same upgrades before, and if the wholesaler hasn't changed the spec on the base toy, and if the OEM hasn't changed their quality control, and if they're able to get the usual parts, and if the spec on those parts hasn't changed, and if those parts don't have defects, and if everything goes together smoothly, and if they actually test if, and if they take it apart to remedy any issues after they test it, and if they have the parts and ability to do so, and if they repeat that process until everything works as intended, I don't see what the problem could be.

[Stratton Oakmont]

I go away for a week and Swiss Tony has taken over Macks 

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

5 minutes ago, Stratton Oakmont said:

I go away for a week and Swiss Tony has taken over Macks 

 

 

Well, buying an airsoft gun is very much like making love to a beautiful woman...

[Adolf Hamster]

21 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Should be fine from an experienced shop, if it's done by an experienced tech rather than some trainee, and if they've done loads of the same upgrades before, and if the wholesaler hasn't changed the spec on the base toy, and if the OEM hasn't changed their quality control, and if they're able to get the usual parts, and if the spec on those parts hasn't changed, and if those parts don't have defects, and if everything goes together smoothly, and if they actually test if, and if they take it apart to remedy any issues after they test it, and if they have the parts and ability to do so, and if they repeat that process until everything works as intended, I don't see what the problem could be.

 

in fairness, certain upgrades for certain platforms can be relatively predictable. for example it can be relatively predictable that the hop rubber on a WE won't like the heavies, so changing to a ml bucking would be sensible.

 

although yes changing every single component generally isn't a requirement and i'd certainly question generic lists where the same parts are listed for a range of different guns from different manufacturers.

[Lozart]

21 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

although yes changing every single component generally isn't a requirement and i'd certainly question generic lists where the same parts are listed for a range of different guns from different manufacturers.

 

[Cromulon1994]

On 13/01/2022 at 01:14, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

There is a Harley dealership near me.

 

Stage 1 Tune: new airfilter and jet that lets it run rich.

 

Stage 2: Filter, jet and cheap loud pipes.  Jets are fitted one size does all.  Lottery on 100% correct mixture.  

 

Stage 3: Jets, filter and pipes fitted by an actual mechanic rather than the apprentice/tea boy/work experience lad, who then gets bike Dyno-ed and gas tested.  Hurrah!

 

A mate makes a decent living tuning them as they have been paid to be tuned.  Those that know their tuners know him.  

 

A wise buyer tests all bikes supplied by them with fresh plugs and chops them...

 

(Since they are now all EFI this comment only applied pre-2016-ish.  Damn this Alzheimer's...)  

 

 

 

There's a fella at work who claims his sportster is 100hp from a stage 3. I think it's total bollocks. Hated the sportster I had briefly with a passion but it was so cheap it needed buying. 

 

My dad has a 1979 Guzzi t3 and it's miles ahead in every way of his 90s dyna that he had before. 

So was my california of similar age to the dyna. 

 

Not a harley hater but I don't see the appeal. 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

2 hours ago, Cromulon1994 said:

My dad has a 1979 Guzzi t3 and it's miles ahead in every way of his 90s dyna that he had before. 

So was my california of similar age to the dyna. 

You are a fellow of taste and refinement.   As a Guzzi rider myself, I vastly prefer them.  

 

The Spadas, Le Mans, Calis and various V models that I have ridden have all been marvellous.  The T3 is a particular favourite if mine.  In another world to Milwaukee's offerings.  

 

100bhp sporty...   pfffft!