The two different types of cqb site

[emilianoksa]

Came across a thread on the Reddit forum about the two types of cqb sites.

 

In the US, as well as cqb sites with lots of rooms, restricted areas, doors etc, (much like the Mill in Wigan) there are also arena sites with few or no rooms, lots of open spaces with objects providing cover, which are popular with the speedsofters but also allow the use of longer rifles.

 

My only experience is of the Mill in Wigan which is full of rooms,  and doors and so I wonder if there are also arena type cqb sites in the UK. I haven't been there yet but Level 2 Airsoft in Atherton looks like it might be more of an arena type site.

 

Would anyone care to comment.

 

 

[Asomodai]

43 minutes ago, emilianoksa said:

Came across a thread on the Reddit forum about the two types of cqb sites.

 

In the US, as well as cqb sites with lots of rooms, restricted areas, doors etc, (much like the Mill in Wigan) there are also arena sites with few or no rooms, lots of open spaces with objects providing cover, which are popular with the speedsofters but also allow the use of longer rifles.

 

My only experience is of the Mill in Wigan which is full of rooms,  and doors and so I wonder if there are also arena type cqb sites in the UK. I haven't been there yet but Level 2 Airsoft in Atherton looks like it might be more of an arena type site.

 

Would anyone care to comment.

 

 

 

 

In these pictures it looks like StrikeForce mixes the two together. But not in a good way. 

 

http://strikeforcecqb.co.uk/

 

Looks pretty uninteresting. 

[emilianoksa]

Thanks.

 

The Level 2 place looks like a reasonable combination of both.

 

 

 

I only play cqb, but I'm getting a bit fed up of being restricted to short barrelled guns. I would like to buy a full sized rifle.

[Lozart]

3 hours ago, Asomodai said:

 

 

In these pictures it looks like StrikeForce mixes the two together. But not in a good way. 

 

http://strikeforcecqb.co.uk/

 

Looks pretty uninteresting. 

 

I've played there, it's actually rather good.

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, emilianoksa said:

I only play cqb, but I'm getting a bit fed up of being restricted to short barrelled guns. I would like to buy a full sized rifle.

 

Plenty of folk at the Depot indoor CQB site play with long guns.  They're not ideal for staircases and tight corners and such, but they make do.

[Aengus]

15 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Plenty of folk at the Depot indoor CQB site play with long guns.  They're not ideal for staircases and tight corners and such, but they make do.

Main sort of fighting areas upstairs and downstairs are still pretty open and arena like although they are getting tighter with the new buildings.

[Vulpiness]

2 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Plenty of folk at the Depot indoor CQB site play with long guns.  They're not ideal for staircases and tight corners and such, but they make do.

 

1 hour ago, Aengus said:

Main sort of fighting areas upstairs and downstairs are still pretty open and arena like although they are getting tighter with the new buildings.

This is true, depot is looking pretty rad since the facelift, kinda excited to go back, even if I'm not so enthusiastic about the £50 taxi fare. 

[emilianoksa]

I wonder sometimes if airsoft overdoes it with the ultra short guns.

 

When Russian troops went into the Beslan school they all seemed to be carrying full sized AKs. 

 

I doubt American soldiers in Iraq all used short barrelled rifles for house clearance. Troops probably make do with whatever they have been issued.

 

I suppose the submachine guns come into their own in restricted spaces, and they are widely used by police units, but I'm guessing most riflemen don't change the length of their guns for close combat. I imagine most of them use the M4 A1 with normal length barrel.

 

Would be interested to see what ex-military members have to say on this subject.

 

I mean, is there really a military equivalent of the G&G FireHawk?

 

This Israeli expert says the only thing that should go into a room is a bullet. And he doesn't carry a sub carbine.

 

I know we are only playing a game, but it makes you think.

 

[jcheeseright]

That video gave me brain AIDS, he doesn't understand how room clearing is done, neither do the guys he's asked to demonstrate so he can debunk their methods.  

 

His whole method is basically slicing the pie, but it relies 100% on an open door at the start.  He's one of those guys that gets stuck on a corner at an airsoft game and doesn't know how to move forward from that point.  

 

for the OP, you don't need a short gun to do CQB, I have gotten along just fine with a 14.5" barrel rifle in very close quarters, you just end up standing a couple of inches further from your cover. 

[Vulpiness]

In my uneducated opinion;
shorter = better,
better = more expensive.

The entire UK police use G36C's for a reason, as (did) GIGN.

the fact is armies don't have to worry about CQB much, it's way easier to flatten a building than to breech it. 

Sometimes you have to because it's old, or there are things or people in it that are strategically important, or it's a "one time thing" so you can send in guy with short weapons and special training. 

The reason bulpups exist, (which are objectively inferior firearms) is for CQB, storage, and transport, but a L85 and an M4 are the same length, one is just less hampered by that because the barrel is longer, but the other is otherwise superior.

The fact is, unless you need to conceal a weapon as close protection or a spy, there is such a thing as too short. 

Seal team 6 used M4s, the Secret service (stupid name btw), use P90s, RMP Close protection used MP7s. Australia could give every unit an AUG Para, but it doesn't for a reason. 

The fact is in war, you don't just need to shoot within a building, but out of it, and that means it has to preform in both environments, and a P90, or a MP5 doesn't, they have uses, but FISH and CHIPS isn't it. 

3 minutes ago, jcheeseright said:

He's one of those guys that gets stuck on a corner at an airsoft game and doesn't know how to move forward from that point.  

 

^ like me, but I can admit it

[jcheeseright]

The police use G36Cs because they're reasonably cheap. 

 

Armies absolutely DO worry about CQB and fighting in built up areas, so much so that whole villages have been built to train that exact thing. 

 

Bullpups are not inferior, the SA80A2 absolutely smokes the M4A1 on accuracy, terminal effect and reliability.  The reason bullpups exist is to provide a longer barrel in an overall shorter weapon. 

 

P90s, MP7s and the like are not designed to be 'fighting weapons', they are personal defence weapons.  They do not compete in the same category as full bore rifles and are only used by the units you specified because they are small and concealable, I'm near certain that the secret service will have a truckload of 5.56 calibre rifles ready to go at the drop of a hat. 

 

SEAL team 6 do not use M4s. 

 

In war you very often need to shoot inside of a building.  

 

 

You are right, your opinion is uneducated.

 

 

[Keldon]

I can tell you now why the army has short versions of the SA80 and it has nothing to do with CQB/FIBUA. Everyone is taught how to use the full length and the short version where originally designed for units where space was a premium ie the Tank regiments and the armoured artillery(MRLS/AS90) and some minor others. 

 

And on another note I would rather take the SA80A2 or now A3 over the M4 found that I was able to shoot much better with the SA80 over the M4. Though that just could of been the years of training with it. 

[Vulpiness]

28 minutes ago, jcheeseright said:

The police use G36Cs because they're reasonably cheap. 

 

Armies absolutely DO worry about CQB and fighting in built up areas, so much so that whole villages have been built to train that exact thing. 

 

Bullpups are not inferior, the SA80A2 absolutely smokes the M4A1 on accuracy, terminal effect and reliability.  The reason bullpups exist is to provide a longer barrel in an overall shorter weapon. 

 

P90s, MP7s and the like are not designed to be 'fighting weapons', they are personal defence weapons.  They do not compete in the same category as full bore rifles and are only used by the units you specified because they are small and concealable, I'm near certain that the secret service will have a truckload of 5.56 calibre rifles ready to go at the drop of a hat. 

 

SEAL team 6 do not use M4s. 

In war you very often need to shoot inside of a building 

 

You are right, your opinion is uneducated.

 

 

.,..wow. great reading skills. 
"you don't just need to shoot within a building, but out of it, and that means it has to preform in both environments"
"one is just less hampered by that because the barrel is longer, but the other is otherwise superior."
" it has to preform in both environments, and a P90, or a MP5 doesn't, they have uses, but FISH and CHIPS isn't it. "
"
The fact is, unless you need to conceal a weapon as close protection or a spy, there is such a thing as too short."

FISH: Fighting In Someone's House
CHIPS: Causing Havock In People's  Streets

The L85 is a worse weapon as a bulpup than if you took the same parts and put them in a conventional set-up, that's because the trigger is connected to the action by a torsion bar, there's less room for the recoil buffer to work, the extraction port is closer to your face, and the controls are either behind your hand, or connected by torsion bars. 

Same with the famas, T21, VHS, AUG, whatever, you put a AK or M4 as a bulpup they're worse than the regular one. 

Is a L85 Better than an M4, maybe. Never shot them, don't know. 

There is not a massive difference between an 416 and an M4, they're both 5.56 short rifles, same platform, samething.
You got riled up but my first sentence which is arguable, and I wrote it in a confrontation way. But still. 

Thanks for agreeing with me, way to go, getting an education without having to read. ^.^ 

12 minutes ago, Keldon said:

I can tell you now why the army has short versions of the SA80 and it has nothing to do with CQB/FIBUA. Everyone is taught how to use the full length and the short version where originally designed for units where space was a premium ie the Tank regiments and the armoured artillery(MRLS/AS90) and some minor others. 

 

And on another note I would rather take the SA80A2 or now A3 over the M4 found that I was able to shoot much better with the SA80 over the M4. Though that just could of been the years of training with it. 

I am aware of that, but thank you for volunteering the information.

Personally I'd prefer an M4 purely because I feel for me, the ergonomics of the switch form semi to full auto are something I find more important than barrel length, move the fire selector and mag buttons on the SA80, whole another story. 

Also, Pathfinders, use C4 Rifle, which is basically an M4, not sure what to make of that, but whatever. 

[Musica]

55 minutes ago, jcheeseright said:

That video gave me brain AIDS, he doesn't understand how room clearing is done, neither do the guys he's asked to demonstrate so he can debunk their methods.  

 

His whole method is basically slicing the pie, but it relies 100% on an open door at the start.  He's one of those guys that gets stuck on a corner at an airsoft game and doesn't know how to move forward from that point.  

 

for the OP, you don't need a short gun to do CQB, I have gotten along just fine with a 14.5" barrel rifle in very close quarters, you just end up standing a couple of inches further from your cover. 

there's a way to push forward? 

[jcheeseright]

20 hours ago, Vulpiness said:

.,..wow. great reading skills. 
"you don't just need to shoot within a building, but out of it, and that means it has to preform in both environments"
"one is just less hampered by that because the barrel is longer, but the other is otherwise superior."
" it has to preform in both environments, and a P90, or a MP5 doesn't, they have uses, but FISH and CHIPS isn't it. "
"
The fact is, unless you need to conceal a weapon as close protection or a spy, there is such a thing as too short."

FISH: Fighting In Someone's House
CHIPS: Causing Havock In People's  Streets

The L85 is a worse weapon as a bulpup than if you took the same parts and put them in a conventional set-up, that's because the trigger is connected to the action by a torsion bar, there's less room for the recoil buffer to work, the extraction port is closer to your face, and the controls are either behind your hand, or connected by torsion bars. 

Same with the famas, T21, VHS, AUG, whatever, you put a AK or M4 as a bulpup they're worse than the regular one. 

Is a L85 Better than an M4, maybe. Never shot them, don't know. 

There is not a massive difference between an 416 and an M4, they're both 5.56 short rifles, same platform, samething.
You got riled up but my first sentence which is arguable, and I wrote it in a confrontation way. But still. 

Thanks for agreeing with me, way to go, getting an education without having to read. ^.^ 

I am aware of that, but thank you for volunteering the information.

Personally I'd prefer an M4 purely because I feel for me, the ergonomics of the switch form semi to full auto are something I find more important than barrel length, move the fire selector and mag buttons on the SA80, whole another story. 

Also, Pathfinders, use C4 Rifle, which is basically an M4, not sure what to make of that, but whatever. 

 

I've shot both, the M4 is not a superior weapon, your Airsoft knowledge counts for the sum total of Jack Diddly on this topic, especially since basically no one is trained to use automatic as a preferred fire mode in any but the direst of circumstances and even then it's better to stick to repetition and put accurate shots on target.  

 

I'm fully aware of what FISH is, 11 years in the military and 3 operarational tours in the middle east have kinda necessitated it.  No one in the military really calls it that other than ironically though, it's FIBUA/OBUA.

 

Pathfinders along with many other units use the Diemaco C8, not the fictional C4. 

 

The HK416 looks like an M4 but is very different, its a gas piston gun rather than direct impingement which makes it really closer to an AK-47 in the way it operates. 

 

As I said earlier. Your opinion is uneducated. You're entitled to it, but it's based in second hand knowledge and Airsoft jingoism rather than first hand experience. 

[ImTriggerHappy]

18 minutes ago, jcheeseright said:

 

I've shot both, the M4 is not a superior weapon, your Airsoft knowledge counts for the sum total of Jack Diddly on this topic, especially since basically no one is trained to use automatic as a preferred fire mode in any but the direst of circumstances and even then it's better to stick to repetition and put accurate shots on target.  

 

I'm fully aware of what FISH is, 11 years in the military and 3 operarational tours in the middle east have kinda necessitated it.  No one in the military really calls it that other than ironically though, it's FIBUA/OBUA.

 

Pathfinders along with many other units use the Diemaco C8, not the fictional C4. 

 

The HK416 looks like an M4 but is very different, its a gas piston gun rather than direct impingement which makes it really closer to an AK-47 in the way it operates. 

 

As I said earlier. Your opinion is uneducated. You're entitled to it, but it's based in second hand knowledge and Airsoft jingoism rather than first hand experience. 

You make it sound like airsoft guns and real guns are nothing alike.....

 

Everyone knows that is not true as any airsoft veteran is just as well prepared for combat as a real soldier. The government just uses all those training costs as a way to syphon money away from the education system to keep the public stoopid.

[Tommikka]

21 hours ago, Vulpiness said:

21 hours ago, jcheeseright said:

...

Armies absolutely DO worry about CQB and fighting in built up areas, so much so that whole villages have been built to train that exact thing. 

....

 

 

......
the fact is armies don't have to worry about CQB much, it's way easier to flatten a building than to breech it. 

 

 

The referenced video has no context, and it all depends on circumstances.

 

Going far back a well known early urban experience was Stalingrad.

It was total war, the defenders had the defending advantage, the attackers didn't put themselves in danger by entering anything.

Throw in artillery, bombers and run tanks over anything that's left.  Stalingrad was destroyed.

The problem was the Russians were still there, and now instead of trapped in buildings with only the chance to run down the backstreets if it got too hot they now had a brick jungle to hide and tunnel in - for month.

 

But if you have civilians to worry about, especially when rescuing them from oppressors, then its more difficult.  You aren't rescuing them by killing them and demolishing their homes.  You now have to risk your lives to get up close.

The point of running in, splitting into your designated area etc is to be hard and fast, knowing who will be where and when, killing first (and making sure you avoid killing friendlies).  After any surprise advantage of room one the second room is not so easy.

 

However the most important point is that we are playing games, the greatest risk from going first is a walk to respawn.

 

 

 

[Vulpiness]

44 minutes ago, jcheeseright said:

 

I've shot both, the M4 is not a superior weapon, your Airsoft knowledge counts for the sum total of Jack Diddly on this topic, especially since basically no one is trained to use automatic as a preferred fire mode in any but the direst of circumstances and even then it's better to stick to repetition and put accurate shots on target.  

 

I'm fully aware of what FISH is, 11 years in the military and 3 operarational tours in the middle east have kinda necessitated it.  No one in the military really calls it that other than ironically though, it's FIBUA/OBUA.

 

Pathfinders along with many other units use the Diemaco C8, not the fictional C4. 

 

As I said earlier. . You're entitled to it, but it's based in second hand knowledge and Airsoft jingoism rather than first hand experience. 

I never said the M4 was superior. 

I'm sorry, I miss remembered the name of gun, egg, on face, how will I ever live this down, I should do the decent thing and banana myself. 

" opinion is uneducated "- I said that first.

"No one in the military really calls it that other than ironically though, it's FIBUA/OBUA." -I don't really give a shit, I'm aware of it, but again it's not relevant, same subject. 

"your Airsoft knowledge counts for the sum total of Jack Diddly on this topic,  " we could talk about the minutia of that, but broadly, yes, it's not relevant. 

"no one is trained to use automatic as a preferred fire mode in any but the direst of circumstances and even then it's better to stick to repetition and put accurate shots on target.  "

AHA! There's your folly my Friend, you have assumed I can actually hit shit in the first place! XD

Imma gonna to falling into the trap of stating opinons as facts, that's on me, but whatever. 

[Albiscuit]

On 23/01/2019 at 21:00, Tommikka said:

 

However the most important point is that we are playing games, the greatest risk from going first is a walk to respawn.

 

 

This, always this!!

 

Theres a huge lack of CQB sites near London and in the south east (do NOT even mention bunker 51 to me  )

 

And Strikefoce does look bland due to the DIY rooms/cover that has been built but I bet it is more fun to play than it looks. After the first game you wouldnt notice it so much.

but unless I am being rather stupid (highly likely) there is NO address for the site, so where dafuq is it??

[Immortal]

Bunker 51 = 🤮

 

It's like playing in the drain of a morgue...

[Albiscuit]

2 minutes ago, Immortal said:

Bunker 51 = 🤮

 

It's like playing in the drain of a morgue...

 

I would rather stay at home and play nerf guns with my son!!

 

More room too

[MisterG]

51 minutes ago, Albiscuit said:

 

This, always this!!

 

Theres a huge lack of CQB sites near London and in the south east (do NOT even mention bunker 51 to me  )

 

And Strikefoce does look bland due to the DIY rooms/cover that has been built but I bet it is more fun to play than it looks. After the first game you wouldnt notice it so much.

but unless I am being rather stupid (highly likely) there is NO address for the site, so where dafuq is it??

This was being discussed as a CQB site earlier in the week.

 

http://ucap.co.uk/ucap-vengeance/

 

Couldn't find an address on the website, but googled the Police College in Bramwell and came back with Hook RG27 0JW.

 

I'll wait to hear what others think, but it's about an hour's drive for me, but would depend where in London you are.

[Crazy_Crystal]

thanks for the heads up @MisterG I'm from that neck of the woods, and am certainly looking forward to that site opening... I mean a cqb battlesim, what's not to like.

 

they haven't announced an opening date yet though, apart from possibly the end of Feb. 🙂

[clumpyedge]

On 31/01/2019 at 12:49, Crazy_Crystal said:

I mean a cqb battlesim, what's not to like.

 

Interesting to hear what a CQB battlesim equates to...

[Crazy_Crystal]

I can only guess that it might mean scenarios with limited ammo and a specific set of objectives and probably encouraging teamwork... I have no idea what this will actually look like though as we can only speculate. whatever happens I will definitely be trying this site out when it opens... 🙂

what they do say on their website is this;

 

Vengeance will feature rolling games, themed with current CT operations in mind. Limited ammo, medic rules, much more like our Operation Semiramis. This is not a skirmish. You will be met at the gate by a member of staff and checked for booking.

 

Returning to Battlesim!

First game to start late Feb 2019.