Told to leave site (Anzio)...

[Stratton Oakmont]

More the point being that an hpa system correctly set up for a given weight should not joule creep excessively with heavier bbs and unless set very close to the chrono limits (which is never a good idea given fluctuations in regulators and differing chronos) should not fail at any weight bb.

 

 

[Kls77]

Like I said previously. There rules there site . Puts downer on it . Only trying to help others who planning on going . Be careful that's all . 

My mate did nothing wrong . Was in the limits on his bb .  Will not be going back and probably not to any other of there sites either . It's done . I learned and so did my mate . Not first time it's happened there and probably not the last .  

U all can debate on the joule creep marlakey and wether who's  fault it is . I just wanted to tell people on what happened . I won't loose sleep over it lol . 

[Steveocee]

5 hours ago, Alimcd said:

Was that Kyle? He’d mentioned they were stand offish about his mtw

 

Certainly was.

What's crazy is the first time I played there, I had a VSR GSPEC and it did 499/500/500 and they let me through fine, tagged it and didn't mention anything. A tear later took my SRS and it went through at 465 and the guy told me I'm only just acceptable.....

 

I kind of "like" that they're wise enough to use a heavier BB to account for some creep but going heavier than the person is using is stupid.

[Rogerborg]

Bear in mind that the legal definition of an airsoft gun is based on what it's "capable" of with "any missile".  So sites could make an argument along those lines, and test with a variety of BB weights, and with the hop dialled to various settings.  You could even test what an HPA rig can do with the regulator dialled to 11 - I wonder how many folk are turning up with Section 5 firearms.

 

Their site, their rules.  But they need to explain what ze rules actually are. They're demonstrably not clear, or consistent, and actually contradict their own published contract.

[Stratton Oakmont]

7 minutes ago, Kls77 said:

Like I said previously. There rules there site . Puts downer on it . Only trying to help others who planning on going . Be careful that's all . 

My mate did nothing wrong . Was in the limits on his bb .  Will not be going back and probably not to any other of there sites either . It's done . I learned and so did my mate . Not first time it's happened there and probably not the last .  

U all can debate on the joule creep marlakey and wether who's  fault it is . I just wanted to tell people on what happened . I won't loose sleep over it lol . 

I haven’t been back, I like their bouncing pyro rules even more than their muddled chrono rulings 

[Kls77]

2 minutes ago, Stratton Oakmont said:

I haven’t been back, I like their bouncing pyro rules even more than their muddled chrono rulings 

Pmsl . Yeah that was a while new rule in itself ..... 

[Steveocee]

Overly complicated solution to this.

Site employs a chrono zip tie system with varying colours:

0.2 - Blue

0.25 - Red

0.3 - Green

If it has a tag, it's passed.

 

When random spot checked, gun is re-chrono'd with correct weight, hey presto. Player can use limit they are tested to or lighter.

 

For those about to argue the player could be using a heavier BB. Shoot a couple of BB's through with players own mag and then a few of the colour weighted tags. If the results are similar then player is honest about weight, if results of site BB are higher then player is lying about weight.

 

That to be honest would be right up Anzio's street as they like to heavily convolute the already convoluted and it'd give him 10 more mins of safety brief.

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Steveocee

[Tackle]

Is this kinda heavy handed attitude common towards HPA users ? 

I thought one of the main reasons for using HPA is its adjustability ?, the ability to quickly retune according to site limits or BB weights ? 

Obviously there has always been the contentious attitude by some, me included, that such a system is open to abuse, but surely sites should be encouraging players to monitor any changes during the day & reduce output if it becomes necessary. 

As such, permanent chrono station should be an option ?, if HPA etc isn't a "flash in the pan" that's not going away anytime soon then more should be done to encourage its correct use ? 

[Steveocee]

3 minutes ago, Tackle said:

Is this kinda heavy handed attitude common towards HPA users ? 

I thought one of the main reasons for using HPA is its adjustability ?, the ability to quickly retune according to site limits or BB weights ? 

Obviously there has always been the contentious attitude by some, me included, that such a system is open to abuse, but surely sites should be encouraging players to monitor any changes during the day & reduce output if it becomes necessary. 

As such, permanent chrono station should be an option ?, if HPA etc isn't a "flash in the pan" that's not going away anytime soon then more should be done to encourage its correct use ? 

 

Apparently all HPA users are cheating little gits who chrono low then crank up the PSI's.

 

I just don't understand it. I always chrono on site chrono with my shooting weight so that I know I'm under and then stick site BB's in to make them happy. 

My indoor pistols I build them so that they hit about 1J with a .25 at 80psi so I can set and forget.

 

It's aged attitudes doing this.

[Druid799]

15 hours ago, Kls77 said:

Was told by him and stated at brief to leave room for joule creep . But mates  hpa was set to no more than 328 ( there rules )on .2 . So mate set up for .25 and was all passed at chrono in morning . Asked at chrono what he was running and he said .25 . Fired and passed within there limits . . Tried to be reasonable and explain that we hadn't done anything wrong ( they even tagged and locked the regulator ) . But owner said can't change rules as have to do it for evyone ? 

1st thanks for having the balls to stand up and say who it was , way to many chuck allegations around but won’t back them up with names . Any whoo what you’ve said here convinces me even MORE what a pile of shit you were dropped in through no fault of your own . Now I could go in to a long winded rant about this ‘business man’s’ attitude towards customer experience yada yada but ya know what ? Not worth it , he’s just a c**t simple as that ! ?

[Kls77]

All my hpa guns have there own reg and line and set to the limit needed for BB I use in them 

Ie . Dmr set for .45 .. hk53 set for .28  etc 

 

Basically cause I am too lazy to adjust them . Always take Allen key with me if needed to adjust  at morning chrono but haven't had to adjust the regulator for about six months of going to difernet sites etc 

 

And all my hpa are set to single only too before u call me BB hose wanker hahaha 

[Stratton Oakmont]

An hpa dmr!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that’s just dirty 

[Kls77]

3 minutes ago, Stratton Oakmont said:

An hpa dmr!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that’s just dirty 

Yep it is a haha .  Hunt snipers .... 

[PureSilver]

16 hours ago, Tackle said:

I don't know shite about joule creep, had it explained to me in detail, but [...] since forgotten everything previously explained to me

 

For the benefit of anyone else that's wondering what's going on, joule creep is a phenomenon where guns are more efficient with heavier ammo; they'll do 350FPS with 0.20g (1.14J), but 335FPS with 0.25g (1.30J), 330FPS with 0.30g (1.52J) etc. Essentially the energy level gets higher and higher with heavier ammo. Some sadistic oxygen thieves bellends knobgoblins people abuse this by passing chrono with 0.20g and then actually shooting 0.30-0.45g BBs with a correspondingly huge increase in power. Deliberately or not this phenomenon is especially prevalent in over-volumed guns like short-barrel BASRs, GBBRs and specifically tuned remote-line gas guns (HPA, Tippmanns etc.).

 

13 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

I approve of sites doing regular spot checks all through the day, using their own BBs, and heavy ones at that. [...] If they're going to do that, they need to be absolutely clear about it so that you can tune for it, and provide them at pre-game chrono as well. [...]  If they're really concerned about what over-volumed guns can creep up to by loading heavier BBs, they should be using 0.4g or even heavier.

 

5 hours ago, concretesnail said:

I appreciate that what has happened with the OP and his friend is never going to feel good but it is a policy that is try to prevent what has happened in the past reoccurring. [...] What I have found at anzio is that chrono stations are available as are a range of weights to test and check that rifs are within limits. [...] [It] would be nice to see a clarification on the sites rules as to how they intend to test in the play area for spot checks, that way responsible players can check their setups and tune accordingly, especially if they are genuinely honest and decent hpa users.

 

Pretty much exactly these. In more than a decade of play I've literally never seen a marshal doing spot chronographing (even though it's been mentioned repeatedly) so it's good to see that at least someone does it. However, it's absolute bullshit than they don't tell you they'll be chronographing with random BB weights, especially after you've previously passed chrono. If they want people to pass chronograph at 0.20g, 0.25g, 0.28g, 0.30g, 0.36g, 0.40g and 0.45g and so on, that needs to be both specified and tested for at the original chrono. Chrono will probably take five times as long if you're going to be testing each gun with seven BB weights rather than one but if that's what they want that's what they'll have to do.

 

44 minutes ago, Stratton Oakmont said:

More the point being that an hpa system correctly set up for a given weight should not joule creep excessively with heavier bbs and unless set very close to the chrono limits (which is never a good idea given fluctuations in regulators and differing chronos) should not fail at any weight bb.

 

This is very much true; HPA guns with significant joule creep are running inefficiently and should be tuned more carefully. The whole point of electronic FCU control of solenoids is fine-tuning - with some experimentation it should be possible to tune the gun to shoot less than 1.1J (or whatever the limit is) with every BB in the 0.20-0.30g range.

 

43 minutes ago, Kls77 said:

I just wanted to tell people on what happened . I won't loose sleep over it lol . 

 

Very much the sensible approach.

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by PureSilver

[MAX DICKER]

I can't add much to this convo.... Kls77, you were clearly tucked up. I assume neither you nor your mate had a crystal ball or tarot deck to ascertain that the marshalls expected you to pass with .30g bbs?

 

I am absolutely for spot checking and zero tolerance toward people cheating. However, unless the site CLEARLY states their policies and procedures in this regard beforehand (on website, physical site notices and briefing), then enforcing your arbitrary rules that you have written on the back of your hand just makes you look like a bully and a wanker.

 

Just a thought, if your friend had passed with the marshals 0.3g ammo, would the marshal have put increasingly heavier ammo in until your friends gun failed chrono? What's the heaviest ammo you can get?

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

19 minutes ago, MAX DICKER said:

Just a thought, if your friend had passed with the marshals 0.3g ammo, would the marshal have put increasingly heavier ammo in until your friends gun failed chrono? What's the heaviest ammo you can get?

Spot on.

 

I'd be pissed off being spot chronoed with a depleted uranium BB...

[MAX DICKER]

6 minutes ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

Spot on.

 

I'd be pissed off being spot chronoed with a depleted uranium BB...

If DU rounds passed, you can always use matter from a neutron star.

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, Steveocee said:

I always chrono on site chrono [...]

 

Well, you're not the problem that they're trying to solve.  Something to bear in mind is that the folk on this site and others represent a small subsection of airsoft players, and I'd suggest the most engaged and interested - and dare I say, honest.

 

I'm not long after seeing a Failbook post from someone who'd bought an HPA system and then thought to ask "How adjust power tho?"  And even at that, at least they asked. Others might not.

 

There won't be many folk turning up shooting hotter than a thousand suns, but it'll only take one to make a site shy of the platform and what it can do.

[colinjallen]

13 hours ago, concretesnail said:

Just as to add some balance to hat has been said.

 

I appreciate that what has happened with the OP and his friend is never going to feel good but it is a policy that is try to prevent what has happened in the past reoccurring. Which is challenging with such a big site and potential high player count.

 

What I have found at anzio is that chrono stations are available as are a range of weights to test and check that rifs are within limits.

The briefing, although some have moaned that it's too long, does cover the fact that they run spot check and random chrono throughout the day and what failing that results in. Its harsh but like I mentioned before, it's in response to previous incidents.

While joule creep is something that is possible with all the systems we use to play it is much more open to abuse within hpa setups.

It. would be nice to see a clarification on the sites rules as to how they intend to test in the play area for spot checks, that way responsible players can check their setups and tune accordingly, especially if they are genuinely honest and decent hpa users.

 

On a personal note i know I've been there with a freshly built rif post modding and it's been on the bleeding edge of limits and despite passing chrono, I've put it away, knowing that a fail of a spot check means. I also tested a brand new bolt action build which was over limits and staff were fine with me putting it away and using something else, although this is all done before the start of the day at the chrono station rather than post briefing in the game area.

In the end I feel that the OPs friend has unfortunately fallen foul of a system put in place as a blanket cover to a broad issue that not all players understand the physics of, and the potential insurance issue which could ensue.

 

Sorry for the long post folks.

 

 

Utter bollocks!  The guy's gun was within limits on the weight he was using; chronoing him on a heavier weight than he was using and them booting him off site is out of order.

[JimFromHorsham]

9 minutes ago, colinjallen said:

Utter bollocks!  The guy's gun was within limits on the weight he was using; chronoing him on a heavier weight than he was using and them booting him off site is out of order.

i agree really , a very strange way of running things . Airsoft is full of “possibilities” , but the core of the game is built on trust so if you dont put some trust in your new punters then what’s the point  

[Tackle]

HPA aside, are there any other moody rules or behaviour from those who run/Marshall the site ? 

[EvilMonkee]

Its not just HPA though, he is like this with all guns apparently.  Just avoid the place

 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

11 hours ago, MAX DICKER said:

If DU rounds passed, you can always use matter from a neutron star.

Failing that, the matter from Black Sabbath's first four albums would tip anything over the edge.  Imagine Into the Void in your rif.  

 

 

[Lozart]

9 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

Failing that, the matter from Black Sabbath's first four albums would tip anything over the edge.  Imagine Into the Void in your rif.  

 

 

 

I'd forgotten how much I LOVE that album!

[Druid799]

On 04/07/2022 at 07:54, concretesnail said:

Just as to add some balance to hat has been said.

 

I appreciate that what has happened with the OP and his friend is never going to feel good but it is a policy that is try to prevent what has happened in the past reoccurring. Which is challenging with such a big site and potential high player count.

 

What I have found at anzio is that chrono stations are available as are a range of weights to test and check that rifs are within limits.

The briefing, although some have moaned that it's too long, does cover the fact that they run spot check and random chrono throughout the day and what failing that results in. Its harsh but like I mentioned before, it's in response to previous incidents.

While joule creep is something that is possible with all the systems we use to play it is much more open to abuse within hpa setups.

It. would be nice to see a clarification on the sites rules as to how they intend to test in the play area for spot checks, that way responsible players can check their setups and tune accordingly, especially if they are genuinely honest and decent hpa users.

 

On a personal note i know I've been there with a freshly built rif post modding and it's been on the bleeding edge of limits and despite passing chrono, I've put it away, knowing that a fail of a spot check means. I also tested a brand new bolt action build which was over limits and staff were fine with me putting it away and using something else, although this is all done before the start of the day at the chrono station rather than post briefing in the game area.

In the end I feel that the OPs friend has unfortunately fallen foul of a system put in place as a blanket cover to a broad issue that not all players understand the physics of, and the potential insurance issue which could ensue.

 

Sorry for the long post folks.

 

 

Sorry but all I’m getting from your posts is you appear to be defending the site owner for his own site incompetence , as @Kls77has said on several occasions the marshal chrono’ing at the start was fully informed about his mates set up for the day and passed him to play with that set up so that should be the end of it , but the owner then comes along random chrono’ing (which is perfectly acceptable , I’ve always been a fan of it) but to decide no he can’t play with that set up and telling him he has to leave the site with that set up is outrageous . In no way shape or form was the player at fault it’s ALL on the site .

 

The one giant elephant in the room I’ve not seen mentioned yet is the actual chrono’s being used and how accurate they are ? was the gun re-chrono’ed on the same chrono or a different one ? When was the last time anyone checked them to see if there actually recording accurately or not ? As I (like many others I’m sure) am frequently quite bemused by the variation in the upper and lower FPS numbers my guns are ‘recorded’ doing at different games days I attend especially as all my guns are kept stock and never ‘up-graded’ as I’ve always been a believer in “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it !” So there shouldn’t be a particularly noticeable variation in the output once there bedded in . I do think it’s fair to say most sites get the chrono’s out on a Sunday morning check the guns and then end of day or some time during it there either chucked in a box or in to a cupboard until the next game day , hardly the way you’d want a machine used to accurately check energy output treated is it ? 
just saying .