Blind Firing.

[Cr0-Magnon]

Going back six years or so when I started playing, "Blind Firing" was described as only presenting the weapon. Most typically around a door or over a wall. Rules against this make sense, it's both potentially dangerous and unfair. However the last few sites I've visited, have stated it's when you fire without looking down your sights (e.g. hip firing). This doesn't make sense to me, I mean you wouldn't shoulder a mini gun. One player was chastised for rotating his gun on his shoulder while he angled around a corner, even though in this scenario they were both shouldering it and looking down the iron sights.

 

What say you? Has something changed or is my interpretation incorrect? Obviously site rules vary from place to place, which have you experienced and which do you think it should be?

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

the version i always interpreted it as was you had to see what you were shooting at.

 

the whole premise being that holding a gun round a corner and firing without looking to see if perhaps someone happened to be right on the other side of the cover.

 

so i wouldn't consider hip firing, or any of the tacticool holding the gun sideways shenanigans as blind firing if the person doing the shooting has clear sight between his gun and the target.

 

it does raise the question on wether or not the use of mirrors/fancy optics (ie corner-shot style equipment) counts, which boils down to wether the primary purpose of the rule is safety (as above) or enforced fairness in terms of letting the target have part of you to shoot at.

[Cr0-Magnon]

5 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

it does raise the question on wether or not the use of mirrors/fancy optics (ie corner-shot style equipment) counts

 

I made a cardboard periscope at school. Will have to see if it's up in the loft.

[Adolf Hamster]

6 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

 

I made a cardboard periscope at school. Will have to see if it's up in the loft.

 

let us know how it goes.

 

whilst i've always wondered about how that would go down, i've never actually seen someone actually try it in-game.

[BigStew]

29 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

Going back six years or so when I started playing, "Blind Firing" was described as only presenting the weapon. Most typically around a door or over a wall. Rules against this make sense, it's both potentially dangerous and unfair. However the last few sites I've visited, have stated it's when you fire without looking down your sights (e.g. hip firing). This doesn't make sense to me, I mean you wouldn't shoulder a mini gun. One player was chastised for rotating his gun on his shoulder while he angled around a corner, even though in this scenario they were both shouldering it and looking down the iron sights.

 

What say you? Has something changed or is my interpretation incorrect? Obviously site rules vary from place to place, which have you experienced and which do you think it should be?

 

 

Site I play at blind firing is classed as not having a clear line of sight . So no shooting round corner,  through/over obstacles and the gun can not obscure your view I.e having the receiver level with your head so that you can't see to the left/right. Or bassicll you want to shoot at something you should present a traget to be shot at.

[Asomodai]

1 hour ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

Going back six years or so when I started playing, "Blind Firing" was described as only presenting the weapon. Most typically around a door or over a wall. Rules against this make sense, it's both potentially dangerous and unfair. However the last few sites I've visited, have stated it's when you fire without looking down your sights (e.g. hip firing). This doesn't make sense to me, I mean you wouldn't shoulder a mini gun. One player was chastised for rotating his gun on his shoulder while he angled around a corner, even though in this scenario they were both shouldering it and looking down the iron sights.

 

What say you? Has something changed or is my interpretation incorrect? Obviously site rules vary from place to place, which have you experienced and which do you think it should be?

 

 

 

I had an argument with someone about this a year ago at Mayhem. I was being shot at by someone who had a rifle above their head over a bush, but their head was behind the bush. They claimed they could see through the bush. I complained to the marshal who agreed it should be aimed down the sights of the rifle. But another marshal said the opposite and neither wanted to mediate and get involved. The guy who shot me decided that because safety brief didn't specifically explain this circumstance to anyone. He could see me, so it must be fine. 

 

So in the end it it meant I have a very small chance of hitting them through the bush and they gained an unfair advantage. The site you played at may have stopped hip firing, trying to solve the same issue I had. The average Airsofter can be pretty stupid and it's best to have a simple single rule, then attempt to explain what I experienced above. 

 

Some rules that sound overbearing to us, are in response to Airsofters that have pushed the boundaries (And the spirit) of the more lax rules that existed before. Not because marshal's are trying to be arses. 

 

Hip firing I have no problem with. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Asomodai

[Tommikka]

Safety wise, hip firing has a slight edge over sight firing

 

Look down the sight and you’re focusing yourself which could give tunnel vision and prevent you from seeing the dog walkers strolling into shot

 

Fire from the hip and as long as your eyes are open then you’re looking at the area that you’re firing at

 

 

Blind firing is shooting without looking at what you’re shooting at

[Guest]

Just now, Tommikka said:

Safety wise, hip firing has a slight edge over sight firing

 

Look down the sight and you’re focusing yourself which could give tunnel vision and prevent you from seeing the dog walkers strolling into shot

 

Fire from the hip and as long as your eyes are open then you’re looking at the area that you’re firing at

 

 

Blind firing is shooting without looking at what you’re shooting at

Red dots help, both eyes open

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

I got screamed at by a marshal for having the butt of the stock too low in my shoulder at one site.  I was lobbing BBs in at the edge of my range. 

 

Not worth arguing with that level of daftness.   

 

 

[Cr0-Magnon]

42 minutes ago, Asomodai said:

 

I had an argument with someone about this a year ago at Mayhem. I was being shot at by someone who had a rifle above their head over a bush, but their head was behind the bush. They claimed they could see through the bush.

 

To me this would definitely be blind firing, although yes possibly a loop hole in that sense. The phrase they tend to use in safety briefings is "we're not Americans"

[Daddy Foote]

"Rules are made because of fools to be followed by the few who care... Andrew Foote 2022...

Apart from not being able to see if people have there eye pro removed/dislodged, I haven't got a big problem with blind firing.

It certainly happens in real life. 

If everyone did it though apart from the safety risks, games would be less fun.

 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Asomodai said:

I complained to the marshal who agreed it should be aimed down the sights of the rifle. But another marshal said the opposite and neither wanted to mediate and get involved.

 

Beat me to it.  If I asked a site owner and two marshals, I'd expect two or three different answers.  Ask again on the next day and I'd expect one or two of them to have forgotten or changed their minds.

 

Personally I assume it means both: present yourself as a target, and be able to see what the muzzle is pointing at.  I phrase that last one carefully because not all guns have sights, or are shoulder-fired, and the important consideration is to be sure that you're not going to point-blank someone in their earball.

 

Anyone having a frothing fit because they see a toy being used in a manner that doesn't precisely match the technique in their Grammaton Cleric Gun Kata Boys Annual 2003 needs to cut themselves a a big slice of perspective cake.

[GAMBLE]

Hi, ALL! 👋

Intriguing topic and everyone has seen it, experienced it and each site it will vary!

Briefing states and shows what is blind firing, something is not mentioned, not hard to ask and clarify…. if it has iron sights or scopes, you will use them to aim…. If it’s heavy like an LMG or mini, they may allow hip firing only for those players…. Just again ask and clarify? 🤔

 

“Some people panic or think it’s cool from movies. This is Airsoft, for the safety of those playing and want some fun!” -GAMBLE 2022

🔫😎👍

💷GAMBLE💷

[Rogerborg]

14 minutes ago, GAMBLE said:

Just again ask and clarify

 

If anyone has to ask, the marshal should have explained it in the first place.

 

If they don't explain and nobody asks, everyone is going to have different opinions.

 

The biggest trigger (tee hee) for me in briefings is "You all know..."

[The Waco Kid]

6 hours ago, Asomodai said:

 

I had an argument with someone about this a year ago at Mayhem. I was being shot at by someone who had a rifle above their head over a bush, but their head was behind the bush. They claimed they could see through the bush. I complained to the marshal who agreed it should be aimed down the sights of the rifle. But another marshal said the opposite and neither wanted to mediate and get involved. The guy who shot me decided that because safety brief didn't specifically explain this circumstance to anyone. He could see me, so it must be fine. 

 

So in the end it it meant I have a very small chance of hitting them through the bush and they gained an unfair advantage.

 

Okay was there actually a safety issue? If the shooter could see his own barrel and where the bb’s were going I wouldn’t call that blind firing. Might be if his situational awareness was nonexistent.

Some places specifically brief no gangsta skills, some don’t.

 

There are plenty of Airsoft “marksmen” who set up where Dozens of players are bound to walk straight across them but are totally focused on the scope. You can shoot both eyes open it’s a telescopic sight, or have an actual spotter…

As to the unfair advantage, is it much different than him prone in a ditch firing from behind a tree stump so only 4 inches square visible? We’re hits on his gun not counted? 
 

I know we think we should be able to shoot through bushes and it count but the reality is most cover in game fields won’t stop a real bullet. We have roddie bushes and thin pallet wood at most sites.

 

Anyway this is why I carry grenades 😉
 

Did Fireball Squadron weekender with just pyro once. Expensive but so much fun. 
 

“Stop throw grenades at us, we don’t like it”

 

Just smile as you light the fuse.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by The Waco Kid

[Asomodai]

1 hour ago, The Waco Kid said:

Okay was there actually a safety issue? If the shooter could see his own barrel and where the bb’s were going I wouldn’t call that blind firing. Might be if his situational awareness was nonexistent.

 

There are plenty of Airsoft “marksmen” who set up where Dixon’s of players are bound to walk straight across them but are totally focused on the scope. You can shoot both eyes open it’s a telescopic sight, or have an actual spotter…

As to the unfair advantage, we’ll is it much different than him prone in a ditch firing from behind a tree stump so only 4 inches square visible? We’re hits on his gun not counted? 
 

I know we think we should be able to shoot through bushes and it count but the reality is most cover in game fields won’t stop a real bullet. We have roddie bushes and thin pallet wood at most sites.

 

Anyway this is why I carry grenades 😉
 

Did Fireball Squadron weekender with just pyro once. Expensive but so much fun. 
 

“Stop throw grenades at us, we don’t like it”

 

Just smile as you light the fuse.

 

 

I never said it was necessarily a safety issue, but imagine if everyone did the same thing?

 

I dont think he could see where his barrel was pointing because it was waving above his head, sure right direction, but at what elevation?

 

The point is you should have something showing to be shot at, it keeps games flowing. 

 

Gun hits are not a thing on many sites. 

 

No problem with snipers on the ground mostly hidden. At least they are using the rifle in a realistic way, knowing exactly where the barrel is pointing and not being completely hidden. 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Asomodai

[The Waco Kid]

Was it an all walk on day? I’d hope for maybe more sporting conduct if is was, but I am partially delusional.

Asomodai definitely visited more sites than me in recent times. Certainly my local one is gun hits are good, I can’t think of many over the years that I’ve been too didn’t allow them. Perhaps UW but years since I visited. I can’t remember Mayhem, but I haven’t had my evening glass of port.

 

If the shooter isn’t aware of the barrel position/line of sight then that may be unsafe.

 

If he had simply got a position that offers advantage that’s tactics! If he was shooting through a firing loop in a wall would it be an issue?

 

Was it a brief “racing incident” or impeding play?

 

If I was on the receiving end it may have annoyed me, or not. Manoeuvre, use teammates to suppress and flank. 

 

I’ve used rental aeg’s that shot so inconsistently that some of the rounds  went around corners. Blind firing?

 

I digress: 

 

I know some very good snipers who are sneaky as a sneaky thing with extra sneakers on.

I have seen far more who are not:

 

1) Wookiee gonna get ya wearing a shite overly thick ghillie that they think makes them invisible and can’t feel hits through. Essentially mobile cover.

 

2) DMR dongle who STANDS in the centre of the field blasting away continually simply relying on a bit more range than the site guns. This player tends to stay locked to the scope and cap as many of their own in that back as they do opposition. 
 

Okay I maybe exaggerate a tiny bit but  both are examples of problem play or “unsporting” behaviour where essentially the opponent doesn’t get a chance to get them.

 

All problems can be solved with more dakka! Plus explosives, which is of course more DAKKA.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by The Waco Kid
Needs more DAKKKKA!

[Asomodai]

33 minutes ago, The Waco Kid said:

 

If the shooter isn’t aware of the barrel position/line of sight then that may be unsafe.

 

If he had simply got a position that offers advantage that’s tactics! If he was shooting through a firing loop in a wall would it be an issue?

 

It was a standard walk on day.

 

Most sites have a rule saying you cant shoot through something smaller then an A4 sheet of paper. Also many sites don't allow people to shoot with guns over their head.

 

The thing is you're bringing up points that really have no bearing on this specific situation and only replying with a bit of "Whataboutery?". 

 

Some people say Airsoft is either supposed to be playing it as it's own sport and not following any traditional ideas of how a rifle would be used in real life, OR going full milsim and only playing with low caps. The right thing for me is somewhere around the middle, making play immersive but fun for the majority at the same time. 

 

I would hazard a guess that what the guy was doing in my scenario may not be against the rules of some sites, but is not the norm and is certainly going against the spirit of the game. 

 

I would like to think most people would agree with me. But I couldn't speak for them. 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Asomodai

[The Waco Kid]

I do agree with you, to an extent. 
 

Nor do I doubt you.
 

The thread started off asking what people considered blind firing. This raised two points.

 

1) What is safe

 

2) What is unsporting

 

There are clearly differing opinions on those. And different groups/sites use various definitions and rules. Therefore we keep to the ones that site uses when there. If it’s unclear, ask. 

I asked you to clarify and you replied you felt that the player was acting in an unsportsmanlike like manner. I’m sure many would agree, I wasn’t there but two Marshall’s were and didn’t address it. Did you both walk away or what?

 

You’ve raised it on a discussion forum  as an example and thought the player had an unfair advantage.

 

I raised some points for discussion that are specifically about “advantage”  maybe this should be a separate thread. What is deemed fair or “ethical”?

Skip this it’s a big digression.

 

——————————————————

 

A player with a little field craft taking up a good position using natural features having all the benefits of a “less than A4” window but it’s within the rules and “fair”.

 

experienced players pushing the rules to gain a specific tactical advantage. Why is this less relevant or different to your example?

One is lack of situational awareness that’s very likely to lead to hitting people at less than MED for the gun, indeed I have seen point blank to the back of the head more than once. So safety. Same as running/shooting with seriously fogged up eye pro.

 

The other is as I said effectively mobile cover. A player with so much material they cannot feel or even hear impacts. Or potentially worse the player rationalises that the hit “didn’t count” because it must have been a stray shot and they can’t see me.

 

Sites with lots of structures tend to brief about minimum allowable firing points but not all do. Better to block up smaller openings. My last game this wasn’t covered and not everyone was a regular.

 

Some sites have far better briefings that others. I agree they should be pertinent. But more detail isn’t always the answer as people will just switch off.

 

I think “fairness” is elastic and  depends if the objective is fully a competitive game or some sort of balance. I think Asomodai you’d be for a balance as would I.

 

I’ll give an example from sport.

 

Is Michael Phelps a great winning athlete? Yes but he also has “unfair” physical advantages. His body proportions differ from many people even Olympic swimmers. Look it up he’s been studied. But no one seriously says he is a cheat.

 

Digression is a sport unto itself.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

Blind firing is not being able to see between the end of your barrel and the point of aim.  To do otherwise is indirect fire.

 

Presenting a target is just that.  

 

As for ethics, I am sure we would all agree that eudaimonia is central to airsoft.  We are all there to enjoy ourselves.   Does your behaviour in game add to or decrease to the enjoyment of the game for all those present?   

 

[Lozart]

Personally I don't think that hip firing is blind firing AS LONG AS YOU'RE LOOKING WHERE YOU'RE FIRING.

 

Sitting in a bush waving your gun over your head saying it's ok because you can see through the branches? Nah, it's a dick move. Think about it, if you're holding your gun at your side with nothing between your eye line and the line of fire then yes, it's inaccurate but you're aware of everything between you and the target. If you're waving your gun over your head to clear the branches of a bush then you have no idea where that barrel is actually pointing when you start firing which is the basic definition of blind firing. The bigger issue is that if you allow someone to do that then it's a small step to full on, poking your gun round a solid corner blind firing which I hope we can all agree is stupid and dangerous (regardless of whether or not people do it "in real life").

 

The other point is that all of this is largely moot because the site sets its own rules. If you disagree with the rules then don't play there, if they say you're blind firing by shooting from the hip then it's irrelevant what you think, it's their site, their rules.

[Rogerborg]

9 hours ago, The Waco Kid said:

Digression is a sport unto itself.

 

We've raised it to an artform here.  

 

 

8 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

Blind firing is not being able to see between the end of your barrel and the point of aim.  To do otherwise is indirect fire.

 

Presenting a target is just that.  

 

Fair point, and they can be presented separately.  I'm sure we've all seen the difference between rambling digression briefings and someone who really knows what they're doing rattling through one clearly and concisely.

 

This gets us back to the question of why sites don't just put the critical rules on a board, stick it up at the game zone entry, and say "Read that before you go out there, feel free to ask questions, don't plead ignorance."

[BigStew]

4 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

We've raised it to an artform here.  

 

 

 

Fair point, and they can be presented separately.  I'm sure we've all seen the difference between rambling digression briefings and someone who really knows what they're doing rattling through one clearly and concisely.

 

This gets us back to the question of why sites don't just put the critical rules on a board, stick it up at the game zone entry, and say "Read that before you go out there, feel free to ask questions, don't plead ignorance."

Most likely answer they would get vandalised with a couple of days being put up at any wood land site. Any on line booking system should have terms and conditions which include site rules but let's be honest about that no one reads them. Only way to get rules to be inforced is to have a Marshall team that knows the rules and are out in game enforcing them. If you are ever at section 8 you will occasionally hear my sweet voice bellowing the rules to everyone in game if I find some one breaking them.

[Rogerborg]

39 minutes ago, BigStew said:

Only way to get rules to be inforced is to have a Marshall team that knows the rules and are out in game enforcing them.

 

Wouldn't it be nice though to not hear "Oh, nobody told me that", or "That wasn't covered in the briefing" ?

 

There's another very good reason to have a tangible rules-board.  When a lad got blinded at Absolute Airsoft when his chum shot him in the eye in the safe zone with a BB still in the hop, the point of contention was that "they were not told that unfired pellets had to be cleared from guns before they were brought into the safe zone".

[BigStew]

23 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Wouldn't it be nice though to not hear "Oh, nobody told me that", or "That wasn't covered in the briefing" ?

 

There's another very good reason to have a tangible rules-board.  When a lad got blinded at Absolute Airsoft when his chum shot him in the eye in the safe zone with a BB still in the hop, the point of contention was that "they were not told that unfired pellets had to be cleared from guns before they were brought into the safe zone".

Yep it would be nice. except my case I know it was said in the brief they just didn't listen. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by BigStew