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Met Police Don't Seem to Know What a Two Tone Is.


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Going by the photo it wasn’t two-tone under the VCRA.   The blue is less than half of the pistol, and it’s also not a designated VCRA colour. Blue should be bright blue. The blue s

This is what bothered me about the whole thing. I’m black and when I was this on the news I was instantly cheesed off as to how this was portrayed. I felt the news focussed on the fact that they were

Risk of sounding too political here. The police cuts whilst a major factor, Is not as big a factor to the increase in crime as the massive cuts made to the social safety net and crime prevention progr

18 minutes ago, John_W said:

The Guardian is more concerned with the race and age etc, but it seems the police are not aware what a two tone is in terms of firearms law and what the brightly coloured parts represent.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/26/met-defends-officers-who-handcuffed-12-year-old-seen-with-bb-gun

This is going to depend on how the call reached the team that responded, imo

 

I.e. - "Male spotted waving gun outside window"

 

Or

 

"Child spotted with bright-blue pistol through net curtains"

 

I would like to believe that the original call must have been something closer to the former to trigger such a response, but who knows. In simpler times when my friend (occasionally an idiot) used a RIF L85 for his uni film course project, when it was called in they sent two plainclothes officers to walk past them so they could get a quick recce in. Gun was clearly imitation / the situation was clearly not criminal so they simply walked up to him and asked him to chuck it in the boot. I guess a lot's changed since then, though!

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There was an interesting discussion on Twitter about this, and multiple posts saying “try and find which one is the fake” etc etc. A very interesting read if you haven’t already seen it!

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From what I gathered a member of the public saw a black male sitting on a sofa handling a pistol through the window as they walked past the property.

If those are the circumstances then I do think the response was a bit out of proportion and I wonder if race or location may have influenced the reaction.

 

This is why I'm very careful that no one can see me holding any of my toys through a window.  I don't take any out in the garden either.

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59 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

I was in a Facebook group recently where some daft lad had posted video of himself test-shooting across his (multiple) neighbours' gardens

 

isnt that literally the worst legal hot water you could get yourself into with these things?

 

i mean what's wrong with just doing it at a site? you don't have to play every single game and it doesn't take more than 15 minutes to set a hop unit/sight well enough to be used in airsoft, anything else can be accomplished indoors with a chrono and a bb catcher.

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Race absolutely can and does influence certain policing actions, unfortunately. In this case I don't think it did. I'm reminded of when the actor Aaron Taylor-Johnson left a deac M16 in his basement flat in Primrose Hill - really affluent area and the police were forcing entry within minutes of arriving iirc, same level of response. With everything that's gone on in London over the last decade or so, I'm not too surprised.

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15 minutes ago, Musica said:

I am fed up of everything being a race issue.

 

Staying well away from the politics of it, I will note the bare facts that young black urban males are both heavily over-represented as both offenders and victims.  Thus not leaping to conclusions about the witness.  Police are in those areas and targeting that demographic because victims are reporting crimes there, and describing offenders.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Musica said:

As for the police not knowing what two tone is. I bet a lot don't and have no idea what airsoft is either and that is fine with me as I won't be running around a shopping centre with my two tone assault rifle screaming "IT'S ONLY A TOY" as that is asking for a Darwin award. 

 

They've have to be told about it in order to know about it.

 

It'd be interesting to know if they obtained a warrant first, or whether they just put the door in.  Either way, the intelligence received will be crucial to any case against them.  I'm guessing that it didn't say "two tone" or anything similar.  And it's not like the witness is going to stick his face to the window and shout "Oi, is that real?"

 

 

1 minute ago, Adolf Hamster said:

isnt that literally the worst legal hot water you could get yourself into with these things?

 

Well, you could be off your own property and shooting someone with it (non consensually).  But yes, it was teeth-grindingly ill advised, particular in Scotland where even airguns are now licensed.

 

 

1 minute ago, Adolf Hamster said:

i mean what's wrong with just doing it at a site? you don't have to play every single game and it doesn't take more than 15 minutes to set a hop unit/sight well enough to be used in airsoft, anything else can be accomplished indoors with a chrono and a bb catcher.

 

He was tuning a sniper rifle, clearly underhopped and under-powered.  Fortunately, he took the video down after I noted Falkirk police's track record with airsoft videos on YouTube.  But it does illustrate that folk just don't think about the consequences of their actions, or how our "toys" can be perceived by others.

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Just now, Rogerborg said:

Well, you could be off your own property and shooting someone with it (non consensually).  But yes, it was teeth-grindingly ill advised, particular in Scotland where even airguns are now licensed.

 

fair point, but i am aware the law has some very specific things to say about projectiles being sent beyond the boundaries of your property.

 

1 minute ago, Rogerborg said:

He was tuning a sniper rifle, clearly underhopped and under-powered.  Fortunately, he took the video down after I noted Falkirk police's track record with airsoft videos on YouTube.  But it does illustrate that folk just don't think about the consequences of their actions, or how our "toys" can be perceived by others.

 

i feel i should just repeat my previous point about it not taking that long on-site.

 

hell i rocked up to a game yesterday with a new pew took me all of 10 minutes to set the hop and sight well enough to get some kills.

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4 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

They've have to be told about it in order to know about it.

 

It'd be interesting to know if they obtained a warrant first, or whether they just put the door in.  Either way, the intelligence received will be crucial to any case against them.  I'm guessing that it didn't say "two tone" or anything similar.  And it's not like the witness is going to stick his face to the window and shout "Oi, is that real?"

 

I would argue they don't need to know about airsoft guns to to be able to identify it's not a "real" gun.  Like saying only a doctor can detect a mannequin isn't a living human being. The doctor probably doesn't know how to build a mannequin or lube it........ 

 

Now it would be nice if they could be as sad as us and pick out the high cap winding wheel on the mag at 20 feet away but as it stands I am happy for police to treat them as real guns until they can closely inspect them with the suspect detained. It will unfortunately result in someone getting shot eventually over a toy as if you point it at an officer I wouldn't expect them to know it's not real in a life or death situation but is it really going to be the polices fault?  

 

20 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

But it does illustrate that folk just don't think about the consequences of their actions, or how our "toys" can be perceived by others.

 

Everyone with a brain should treat a RIF or IF as if it were the real deal outside of airsoft game days. Being caught with it in public certainly you get treated and prosecuted as such.  I think people in the airsoft community generally have a good respect for them and the issues / news articles we see are the "plinkers" we see loads of posts asking what is the best "plinker" how do they upgrade it to take METAL balls etc etc. All of these people are a big problem and shouldn't be using airsoft guns for this as because they know it's not "real" they get too relaxed with them. 

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45 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

fair point, but i am aware the law has some very specific things to say about projectiles being sent beyond the boundaries of your property.

 

"Air weapons", see https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/21A

 

57A exempts airsoft guns as being considered as firearms for the purposes of the act.  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57A

 

Now, you could argue that "air weapon" might be different to "firearm", although that would be problematic in Scotland since it would mean we'd have to licence our airsoft guns.

 

Where it gets even more tricky is that that the Scotch 2015 air weapon licensing has exemptions based on Firearms Act section 57, but it hasn't been amended to refer to the new 57A definition added by the 2017 act https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2015/10/section/1

 

I suspect there's going to be a test case for this sooner or later up here.

 

 

 

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i feel i should just repeat my previous point about it not taking that long on-site.

 

Eh.  Sniper build, he'd replaced half the parts.  But yes, while understanding his frustration ("I spent all this money, why it not shoot 100m!") I agree, and told him as much.

 

17 minutes ago, Musica said:

I would argue they don't need to know about airsoft guns to to be able to identify it's not a "real" gun.  Like saying only a doctor can detect a mannequin isn't a living human being. The doctor probably doesn't know how to build a mannequin or lube it........ 

 

Indeed, and the definition of RIF in the VCRA specifically excludes the need for close examination by an expert.  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/38

 

Given the points made about simply painting a real gun day-glo, it's a wonder we're still allowed to have RIFs or IFs.

 

 

Quote

It will unfortunately result in someone getting shot eventually over a toy as if you point it at an officer I wouldn't expect them to know it's not real in a life or death situation but is it really going to be the polices fault?

 

Sure, that earns you a slotting. Didn't apply in this situation though - no offence was being committed.  It was daft, but if we accept that the law needs changed, then where do we go?  Licensing, locked gun cases?

 

 

Quote

Everyone with a brain should treat a RIF or IF as if it were the real deal outside of airsoft game days. Being caught with it in public certainly you get treated and prosecuted as such.

 

Again, this was in private.  Given that they didn't try to cover it up by charging under the Public Order Act  ( https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/4 ) I'm inferring that the lad wasn't pointing it towards the window and the witness didn't actually feel threatened.

 

I'm quite conflicted on this one.  It was stupidity by the mother both strategically (buying it) and tactically (allowing him to have it in view of the street), and the police reaction was almost inevitable.  But also I'm glad they de-arrested sharpish, rather than escalating it to a bogus prosecution as with the Grangemouth case.

 

 

Quote

 I think people in the airsoft community generally have a good respect for them and the issues / news articles we see are the "plinkers" we see loads of posts asking what is the best "plinker" how do they upgrade it to take METAL balls etc etc. All of these people are a big problem and shouldn't be using airsoft guns for this as because they know it's not "real" they get too relaxed with them. 

 

Absolutely, which is why I keep pointing them at air guns - let them be that community's problem, even if there's an overlap.

 

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I must admit to have not read the article before my post (I did see the news report on tv last night though, it shit my missus up and I have been warned to be extra careful) but my points all still stand. 

 

What was the mother thinking, they live in Somers town ffs. pretty bloody notorious around that way.

 

As mentioned above though I am also glad it didnt go any further and was de-arrested. 

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Indeed, and the definition of RIF in the VCRA specifically excludes the need for close examination by an expert.  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/38

 

Given the points made about simply painting a real gun day-glo, it's a wonder we're still allowed to have RIFs or IFs.

It's exactly why police need to be able to shoot someone with a RIF doing a stupid thing. Sure it might be 100% yellow but it should never be in public view let alone in your hands pointed at someone outside of an airsoft game. Stupid prizes is the only way to allow people to own them and also keep people safe. 

 

Quote

Sure, that earns you a slotting. Didn't apply in this situation though - no offence was being committed.  It was daft, but if we accept that the law needs changed, then where do we go?  Licensing, locked gun cases?

Yea and I think they handled this situation as best they could. I don't think the law in this instance needed changed unless it could of prevented the kid from having a IF in the first place.

 

23 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

Again, this was in private.  Given that they didn't try to cover it up by charging under the Public Order Act  ( https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/4 ) I'm inferring that the lad wasn't pointing it towards the window and the witness didn't actually feel threatened.

 

I'm quite conflicted on this one.  It was stupidity by the mother both strategically (buying it) and tactically (allowing him to have it in view of the street), and the police reaction was almost inevitable.  But also I'm glad they de-arrested sharpish, rather than escalating it to a bogus prosecution as with the Grangemouth case.

Yea you are right they didn't commit any crimes at all but maybe that is a problem? It's tough because you can always argue private properly to public viability isn't under your control. But I shut my blinds before I clean my RIFs. Should I have to? You are right that the police should be commended for doing a routine check and not blowing it up to be anything more than that. I don't think the kid should of had one in the first place maybe if he was allowed to use it supervised and it was locked away like a real gun at other times. The full blame for this goes on the mother but perhaps even IFs should be harder to get a hold of to prevent this type of thing. 

 

The real question is was he wearing eye protection? 

 

It frustrates me even going to to lock down seeing people saying they wanted to find a way around ukara to get their RIF. I have no idea why mine have been an absolute waste of space and money for me over the past 4 months because I can't use them for anything. 

 

10 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

ummm, you ok? that example became real specific real fast..... :mellow:

I just think people need to treat mannequins with a bit more love and care they have feelings too. 

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I don't blame the police for taking what some view as a heavy handed attitude, what people forget is the police ultimately will come across firearms, likely misused ?, a lot more than the man on the street, that in turn will then feature in their training & approach in the future, a literal snowball effect !.

 

Maybe we should be really questioning the stupidity of ANYONE the brandishes a rif/if in public view, even if your stood on private land ?.

I'm 52, grew up playing "cops & robbers" etc on our estate, our toy guns were in some cases very realistic, but times were different so nobody gave us a second look, & the use of firearms in crimes was very rare indeed, & forget young "gangsters" taking pot shots at each other, unheard of.

BUT, nobody under the age of 30ish knows those times, they've all grown up in a society where gun violence is almost a daily event, & the authorities have very publicly had to raise their response to exceed what they face, so anybody that gets jumped on by the plod usually only has themselves to blame, it's not naive, it's pure stupidity, borderline suicidal.

But of course, common sense doesn't sell newspapers, so I expect we'll see many more cases like this reported with obvious bias just for dramatic effect or political point scoring 😏

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19 minutes ago, John_W said:

Amusingly, Diane Abbott is on Twitter calling it a "Toy Gun". As she was one of the loudest supporters of the VCRA, she should realy know the legislation a bit better (but not supprised she doesn't).

 

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I refuse to listen to anything that repulsive woman has to say, it’s never helpful or constructive and ups the ante unnecessarily if anything. The focus of this should remain on the legalities and nothing else, that way logic and common sense has a better chance of prevailing - two things she has no grasp of whatsoever.

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Some extracts from the Guardian story:

 

The Metropolitan police have defended officers who arrested and handcuffed a 12-year-old boy seen with a toy gun, saying they acted in line with training and expectations.

 

.... son Kai was led away by armed officers and detained in a police vehicle during the raid....

.... responding to a report by a member of the public that they had seen a male with a firearm at the property, eventually dearrested Kai after establishing that it was a BB or plastic pellet gun.

.... I told them almost straight away that there were no weapons in the house, only a toy gun belonging to my son, but we were shouted at to put our hands above our heads and walk one by one out to the street. We were all terrified.”

She and her two daughters, aged 16 and 23, were evacuated from the property while it was searched by firearms officers.

 

and from the BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53538740

 

Officers were called to a home in Camden on 17 July after a passer-by said they saw a "black male holding a firearm on the sofa".

Kai Agyepong was held while officers searched the home, and was released when a plastic pellet gun was found.

While searching the home, officers verified that the gun was a BB gun, which is similar in size and shape to a viable handgun.

 

 

 

So from what information we have:

  • A sighting of what looked like a gun was reported
  • It was held by a black male
  • An armed response team went out
  • The exact status of each person held isn't given.  In the Guardian Kai was arrested, detained & rearrested, the others were 'evacuated' at gunpoint.
  • They may have been arrested, they may have been detained with or without handcuffs.
  • It may have been that he was arrested as he matched the description given.

 

There is nothing to show whether the police attending suspected anything they saw was a gun or whether they instantly recognised it as a BB gun on sight.  

They searched the property and found the BB gun, and once the situation was clear rearrested Kai (and also the others if they had been arrested/detained)

 

The family have the right to enquire whether they were treated differently due to Kai being black, from what I've read its a standard response to a firearms report.

 

 

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Those are both just re-reports of this article: http://camdennewjournal.com/article/boy-12-arrested-by-armed-police-over-toy-gun

 

It presents "a black male with a gun" as a quote, but doesn't attribute it.  I doubt it's from the police.

 

The thing I'd note is that the kid reckons he was cuffed, and I'd question the necessity for that once they'd searched him, unless he was kicking off (which he might have been, for all we know). It's an unpleasant trend towards the Murcan default of physical escalation and immobilisation, and we've seen where that ends up.  All just speculation though.

 

I'd also speculate that the kid will probably blame the police for this, rather than the armed ferals in his manor that caused a concerned citizen to call it in. It's tough winning hearts and minds with the current narrative of division being peddled by professional grifters like Abbott, and of course David "Haven't seen a police for a while" Lammy, who demands more policing to protect his voting constituents from each other, but then calls foul when they're arrest and convicted.

 

 

 

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