How many chances?

[Adolf Hamster]

Thought this might be insightful.

 

The subject of airsoft cheating is a neverending one, and given the massive variances in how its dealt with i wonder what the general level is. How bad does someone have to be before they get properly banned from a site?

 

Had a bit of a run in the other day with a serial shot bouncer, the kind who gets noticed by everybody and it had me pondering "you know if i was to open a site this bloke would be banned before he ever got to turn up", and yet despite getting complaints on multiple sites from scores of people he's never seemed to be kicked out of anywhere.

 

Likewise someone else got caught red handed running hot, very hot, defineately he didn't do that by accident hot. Should he have been marched off never to return? Or would you let him swap his quick change spring to something kosher and play on?

 

So are the sites i'm going to too lenient or is this the kind of thing that goes on everywhere?

[Rogerborg]

Me?  I'd have them off site, and their names and pictures up on a public Barred Board for all to see, heads-on-pikes stylee.

 

But then I'm not scraping a living from fickle paying punters and counting every penny.  Their sites, their rules.

 

Fortunately it's just not a big deal at my local site, but I do yet a yawn on listening to all the sound and fury at the briefings about bouncing folk off site.

 

Do it, don't do it, but I've never so much as seen anyone being asked to sit out a game and calm down, let alone turfed out.  Not to say that it doesn't happen, just that neither I nor anyone else can be sure that it does, which means it's not much of a deterrent.

[Stratton Oakmont]

Seen it happen at rift comms 3.

 

Just to add insult to injury the car park is shut and he got caught during the first game of the day. Just had to sit there like the naughty boy we all new he was

[DopeYourScope]

I’ve seen people being chucked out before, there are few sites who actually do what they say they will. 

In my mind for the hit taking situation a talking to the first time just a friendly reminder, happens a second time a warning and third time would be see ya later buddy, regarding running daftly hot unless they had another gun which had been chrono’d then they’d be out with a reminder that according to the laws the site should report them to the police for having what surpasses the definition of an Airsoft gun. 

Just my 2p though...

[djben9]

never seen anyone removed from site or banned, some sites i play at it seems so easy to chrono, get passed, go back to car, swap gearbox / spring and walk into play never to be checked again.....Chrono should be moved or only one way to re enter whether you only popped back to get something or not.....you still have to re-chrono if you take your weapon

 

i was checked once when i went to swap my AEGs over, i asked to be chrono'd tbh...it was a little high lets say, in the '000s.......4410 

 

the other chrono was fine, back to 320ish

 

as for hit taking, see the usual tell marshall and it seems to stop most of the time.... i stood next to some marshalls once after joking about non hit takers, got hit on helmet or somewhere that sounded similar looked at each other and he said' i think you best take that one' 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Anyone who chronos a gun then messes with it to make it hot after should be removed from site and banned.  I have known this to happen.

 

Hit taking is more difficult. For any player to pulled it has to be witnessed by a marshal as if acted on because a player says so half the players at every skirmish would end up sitting out.  A friendly chat first a warning second time then sat out of a game for third time. To actually remove a player from site it would have to be malicious and that is hard to prove. Again have seen all of the above done.

 

If players see this being done the site is getting it wrong as nobody should be paraded over a game of airsoft. Respect should be shown by the staff even if the player hasn't shown any themselves.

 

Every site should run that way and if they don't players should vote with their feet until they do.

[DopeYourScope]

9 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

If players see this being done the site is getting it wrong as nobody should be paraded over a game of airsoft. Respect should be shown by the staff even if the player hasn't shown any themselves.

 

I completely agree there, absolutely no need to publicly humiliate someone. 

Only time I’ve seen it happen none of the site staff mentioned it only reason I noticed was I was stood in the safe zone sorting out my rifle.

[Stratton Oakmont]

Must stress the marshals did not humiliate him publicly, we only found out when we bit back to the car park. He was caught out by a go pro commando.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

So it seems i'm not alone then in seeing sites with all mouth and no trousers.

 

They made a big talk at the start of the day about spot checking folk, cant say i saw or heard of it happen though.

 

The hit taking is a tricky one, i know a common one is whining about rentals doing it but tbh i've never had too many issues with that and when it has happened it's been more a case of "aww its cute he tried".

 

However i have absolutely zero sympathy for folk who are experienced doing it. We've all had those hits we didn't feel but this guy is something else, 1j might not sound like much energy but i'm pretty sure at 3 feet in the ribcage with nothing but a ubacs to stop it you'd notice.

 

I'd love to vote with my wallet, indeed i did for a few months, but sadly choices for outdoor sites in my area aren't exactly abundant.

[Musica]

Could invite them to a private game with all the other cheats similar to some online games and the match making matching hackers with hackers.  They soon get frustrated when no one is playing by the rules and quit.  

 

I wasn't there but my friend witnessed someone with an unchrono'd gun getting an absolute dressing down at my local but other than a stern talking to it didn't amount to anything as far as I know. @Rogerborg you hear about that one? Was on March 31st. 

[Mad Rag]

1 minute ago, Musica said:

ould invite them to a private game with all the other cheats similar to some online games and the match making matching hackers with hackers.  They soon get frustrated when no one is playing by the rules and quit. 

 

this should happen 100%

[BigStew]

main issue is the marshals actually have to catch the the non hit taker ( i have said this a few times on other threads most of the time people are just not hitting the people) at the site i marshal at if non hit taking is witnessed the person is sitting out that game and given a talking to. we operate a three strike system over  concurrent games so you get three strikes in a row you are getting at least a temporary ban. This is rare but believe me there are some former site regulars that are no longer welcome on site.

[Tackle]

some on here may remember cage/invictaairsoft, Kent based sites, the firms are now long gone unfortunately.

my (now defunct) team, the sea devils, were essentially unpaid player/marshalls at any of the games we attended, as a team we were well known for honest & honourable play, so if any of us pounced on someone for "infringements", it was accepted that it was a legit decision, whether it was "take a 15 break & think about your playing style", or "get the fuck outa dodge, your no longer welcome".

the sites backed us 100%, which included lifetime bans, & in a few cases other sites in the region were contacted & given a heads up, what they did with the info I'm unsure ?.

but as Marshalls we weren't heavy handed nazis, we didn't even wear hi viz, just a small barely visible armband insignia, & we just expected players to adhere to fair play, & it worked 99% of the time.

lets be honest, its all most of want, its a bit like the old adage if "speak to me how you would expect to be spoken to".

 

unfortunately, too many sites seem to value pound notes over integrity, I don't want to come across as elitist in any way, as a team we travelled far & wide, so were lucky enough to sample some great sites, the flip side is that when you visited a badly run shithole you fairly quickly made up your mind not to return, which doesn't go any way to address their shortcomings, & I think nowadays, with travelling costs etc sometimes getting stupid, new players are finding themselves tied to local sites, so even the shit ones are getting "bums on seats", so the organisers prob don't feel the need to change anything, & the players are just going along with the playing practices that most of us despise, because they've not been lucky enough to experience the best sites out there, which is a real shame 😡

[Adolf Hamster]

8 minutes ago, Tackle said:

the players are just going along with the playing practices that most of us despise, because they've not been lucky enough to experience the best sites out there, which is a real shame 😡

 

this is the thing that saddens me, we used to have a pretty good local to go to, one of those places where there was a bunch of regulars and a day with them was a good day's shooting and cheating was a rare event that made a bad day rather than a regular occurrence.

 

sadly it packed up and many of the regulars gave up after realising the state the other places in the area were at.

[Immortal]

There's always non hit takers at every game I've played. You know it's not just you being optimistic with shots when friends and randoms say the same player is doing it through the day.

 

I do find there's only enough hits they can ignore so this is about the only time I switch to full auto and get drilling.

 

One guy in a skull mask at Apocalypse would blatantly be seen rubbing where he was hit and then carry on firing back. Again, eventually he would give up with heavy ammo drilling him for an extended burst. Sometimes it's the only way when Marshalls don't act. It does ruin the whole point of the game and I don't like wasting the ammo... but you gotta do what you gotta do sometimes and a man's gotta know his limitations. I've paid to play just like he had.

 

I'll not have my day ruined by Mr.Indestructable-better-than-everyone-else-can't-take-a-hit-nob-jockey-in-a-shit-mask.

 

Even if I have to waste 50p to get him to call it. lol   Call it mofo, it's not a sign of weakness.

 

Never seen anyone banned or told to leave that I can recall.

 

(Other sites I play will confront the perp in question when a complaint is made, this place did not hence I named it.)

[E21A]

My local test shots throughout the day and acts on it if the player doesn’t take their hits. I’ve only seen a single exclusion/ban in the year I’ve been playing there, so must be doing something right. Cheating isn’t a huge issue there and they do keep on top of it. 

[ImTriggerHappy]

1 hour ago, Tackle said:

some on here may remember cage/invictaairsoft, Kent based sites, the firms are now long gone unfortunately.

my (now defunct) team, the sea devils, were essentially unpaid player/marshalls at any of the games we attended, as a team we were well known for honest & honourable play, so if any of us pounced on someone for "infringements", it was accepted that it was a legit decision, whether it was "take a 15 break & think about your playing style", or "get the fuck outa dodge, your no longer welcome".

the sites backed us 100%, which included lifetime bans, & in a few cases other sites in the region were contacted & given a heads up, what they did with the info I'm unsure ?.

but as Marshalls we weren't heavy handed nazis, we didn't even wear hi viz, just a small barely visible armband insignia, & we just expected players to adhere to fair play, & it worked 99% of the time.

lets be honest, its all most of want, its a bit like the old adage if "speak to me how you would expect to be spoken to". 

 

This to me reeks of one of the problems within airsoft. 

 

All marshals should be proper paid staff. You can have player marshals if you have the right people for that role but not all marshals can do that and still be professional. 

 

To have a team of guys do it because they were believed to be good lads brings to mind the regulars favouritism that has plagued airsoft sites forever. If a player becomes a marshal then that player should drop all affiliation with others so lines do not get blurred. When I started marshalling I put barriers between me and my airsoft friends. I didn't play alongside or particularly associate with them on the day. Even while playing I was 100% marshal and just drove games and did not play for myself. To have a group of players dole out punishments and pull people up is asking for trouble no matter whether they are fair and honest guys or not.

 

I know of a situation where a set of favoured players/groupies were pushing the boundries between staff and players and it pissed people off. Most of them never really knew it but lots of other players started to resent the whole situation. 

 

Every site should draw a very clear line through this sort of thing.

 

 

[Rogerborg]

5 hours ago, Musica said:

I wasn't there but my friend witnessed someone with an unchrono'd gun getting an absolute dressing down at my local but other than a stern talking to it didn't amount to anything as far as I know. @Rogerborg you hear about that one? Was on March 31st. 

 

I was there but didn't see that or hear about it.  I can't rightly recall if the policy is supposed to be to send unchronoed as well as hot guns home with their owners.  If it's not, they might as well not bother chronoing.

 

 

[Tackle]

3 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

 

This to me reeks of one of the problems within airsoft. 

 

All marshals should be proper paid staff. You can have player marshals if you have the right people for that role but not all marshals can do that and still be professional. 

 

To have a team of guys do it because they were believed to be good lads brings to mind the regulars favouritism that has plagued airsoft sites forever. If a player becomes a marshal then that player should drop all affiliation with others so lines do not get blurred. When I started marshalling I put barriers between me and my airsoft friends. I didn't play alongside or particularly associate with them on the day. Even while playing I was 100% marshal and just drove games and did not play for myself. To have a group of players dole out punishments and pull people up is asking for trouble no matter whether they are fair and honest guys or not.

 

I know of a situation where a set of favoured players/groupies were pushing the boundries between staff and players and it pissed people off. Most of them never really knew it but lots of other players started to resent the whole situation. 

 

Every site should draw a very clear line through this sort of thing.

 

 

the issues you mention are very, I've seen them myself with my own eyes too many times, friends of site owners who felt the rules didn't apply to them.but also seen "dedicated" paid marshals who I wouldn't trust to park cars, never mind run games, so nothings guaranteed.

our situation differed in that the site owner was a team member long before we ever helped out with marshalling, & no one could just approach the team & ask to join, potential members were essentially viewed on a number of gamedays, & if thought to be suitable they were approached with a view to membership, sounds a bit anal now as I try to explain it, but it was a "mature" team & really did embrace fair play etc.

the cage/invicta sites had some paid hi-viz staff, but as the sites popularity grew, especially when they then got access to a number of mod locations, keeping order became paramount, not just players cheating but also any elements of antisocial behaviour, as some of the sites were covered by cctv monitored by landmarc on behalf of the mod, hence why we were asked, in Leui of green fees, to supplement the marshalling team when player numbers had increased considerabley.

this worked very well, soon, just like in real life, players began to realise that if you cheated, were verbally or physically abusive, or damaged property in any way, you were likely to get caught by these "undercover marshals".

your right though, this scenario is open to abuse, all I can say is that it worked for us, prob because as a team we had a strong mindset, we weren't walts, many of us had served in the military & plod & therefore had nothing to prove, even when we travelled to distant sites, it was never about winning, just getting out & having a laugh.

[clumpyedge]

There has to be an element of giving people chances, working as a marshal you generally start to get a feel for the people that genuinely don't feel a hit to those that are just not taking them. Although I hate to have to test shot a person sometimes that is all you are left with doing so you can see it for yourself in which case the marshal tabbard comes off and you try and do it in an inconspicuous way.

We as a site have banned 3 people so far this year for varying infringements. When it comes down to the enjoyment of everyone else playing that have payed money to play properly the bad eggs have to be sought out and gotten rid of, that's not to say the 3 we have got rid of was just hit taking but we generally apply as much education as we can before a ban is put in place.

On the odd occasion the ban has been needed for something more serious we do generally inform sites we are friendly with and let them know that whats gone on, how it was dealt with and that they may be trying their place sometime in the future. Likewise other sites locally also share things with us and give us a heads up. We also have a very good reputation with the local police and have informed them of other reasons of why players have been ejected from site.

[Arwen]

I get so sick of the non-hit taking by a few select players now that I simply don't even bother shooting them any more. I just move and pick another target. 

There are way more important things to get wound up over in my view! 

Most players I have found start behaving themselves after a quiet word and/or a few test shots from Marshalls. 

 

As for making a gun hot after being chrono'ed. They should be sent packing if found out in my view. That is a deliberate and thought out action on their part to get around the safety rules.

No accident or mistake. 

[Prisce]

See non hit takers are my favourite. But only when I’m with my team, we are airsofters, we enjoy the sport, when some little prick thinks he’s going to ruin our day we do our best to ruin his. 

We spent an entire game day just hunting 1 guy and not letting him leave his spawn area, now you may say if he’s not taking his hits it wouldn’t matter, but when you have 3 high RPS AEGs, and 2 accurate 490fps snipers using heavy BBs aiming for the soft spots they usually buck up their ideas.

 

We have made a group quit before doing the exact same.  

 

We have seen many players get banned too, and most sites nowadays are shit hot at getting rid of the scum, if they aren’t, they tend not to get any returning custom from us and everyone we know.

 

I have seen a Marshall give “god mode” to a player when the Marshall saw this guy cheat, this to me was bang out of order, but I will say it worked.

[clumpyedge]

32 minutes ago, Prisce said:

See non hit takers are my favourite. But only when I’m with my team, we are airsofters, we enjoy the sport, when some little prick thinks he’s going to ruin our day we do our best to ruin his. 

We spent an entire game day just hunting 1 guy and not letting him leave his spawn area, now you may say if he’s not taking his hits it wouldn’t matter, but when you have 3 high RPS AEGs, and 2 accurate 490fps snipers using heavy BBs aiming for the soft spots they usually buck up their ideas.

 

While I appreciate what you're saying I don't think this is the route to go down. You have marshals on site for a reason, if they don't do anything speak to the site owner. If they don't do anything talk with your feet and don't bother with the site again.

Problem I have with non-hit takers is if I shoot a guy and find him to not take hits I generally move off an go somewhere else (if a marshal isn't close enough to be able to tell without affecting my game), I've had it before when I have done that though and then been killed by the very guy I was getting frustrated with. I haven't been to a site yet where marshals aren't proactive though so maybe I'm just lucky.

[Musica]

2 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

 

While I appreciate what you're saying I don't think this is the route to go down. You have marshals on site for a reason, if they don't do anything speak to the site owner. If they don't do anything talk with your feet and don't bother with the site again.

Problem I have with non-hit takers is if I shoot a guy and find him to not take hits I generally move off an go somewhere else (if a marshal isn't close enough to be able to tell without affecting my game), I've had it before when I have done that though and then been killed by the very guy I was getting frustrated with. I haven't been to a site yet where marshals aren't proactive though so maybe I'm just lucky.

It's the exact advice given at my site par not coming back. Speak to a marshal, if your not happy with the marshal speak with the boss.  As a player I think it's important to report your own team to a marshal. Don't directly call them out it does nothing you have no power over them. 

 

I often report my own team for using radios when dead or other such infringements. Things the other team wouldn't see.

[clumpyedge]

9 minutes ago, Musica said:

It's the exact advice given at my site par not coming back. Speak to a marshal, if your not happy with the marshal speak with the boss.  As a player I think it's important to report your own team to a marshal. Don't directly call them out it does nothing you have no power over them. 

 

I often report my own team for using radios when dead or other such infringements. Things the other team wouldn't see.

 

I wouldn't openly say to people if you don't like what we do or how we do things you can do one but I have left sites mid morning because I didn't like the way things were done/things haven't improved after complaints from myself and others. No big deal to me but luckily these days that few and far between.

We have players doing exactly the same to their own team and I've also done so when playing as well. Couldn't give a shit if someone is on my team, cheating is cheating.