Could this show airsoft in a bad light?

[Wo1f]

43 minutes ago, Eddie The Headshot said:

The Battle Royale will bring attention to the sport and attract new players.  I don't see how that will be a bad thing?

Because I’ve found the type of people that talk about fortnight and call of duty in the safe zone are the same people who cheat and overkill in games. 

 

Instead of playing 3 games and being given a little number to buy RIFS, you should play 3 games and have the whole enemy team judge you at the end of each day. If you’re found not to be an annoyance you’ll be issued with your NAAC licence and you can buy RIFS. 

[Eddie The Headshot]

3 hours ago, Wo1f said:

Because I’ve found the type of people that talk about fortnight and call of duty in the safe zone are the same people who cheat and overkill in games. 

 

Instead of playing 3 games and being given a little number to buy RIFS, you should play 3 games and have the whole enemy team judge you at the end of each day. If you’re found not to be an annoyance you’ll be issued with your NAAC licence and you can buy RIFS. 

 

I'm not denying that it will attract some wankers, to the sports.  But it will draw in some good folks to.  Its a give take that can't be controlled.  In order for the sport to grow it need new fans to become intrested and want to play.  Theres no litmus test to tell who is a jerk,  so they can be turned away and who is cool to let in the club.  The only thing you have control over is yourself and how you choose to deal with the influx of new blood.

[Vulpiness]

9 hours ago, jcheeseright said:

 

There's no W in my name. 

 

What you're talking about is how submarines can have an effect upon the greater logistics of warfare, if you're going down that line Seth K needs to start simulating macroeconomics and poor defence policy too!  When it comes to actually fighting those battles the pre-logistics are utterly irrelevant, you either have the requisite equipment or you do not.  

 

Submarines can effect shipping and suchlike very effectively, but this still does not have any impact on how the specifics of anti-submarine warfare are conducted (SONAR doesn't 'ping' anymore and depth charges haven't been a thing for destroying submarines for a few decades now, though they do still have uses in some very specific scenarios).  

 

I can see where you're coming from, but the allocation of resources to finding and killing a submarine don't cross over with the resources required to fight a land battle, in addition the submarine itself cannot have any tangible effect on the land battle (submarine launched missiles are a thing, yes, but the second it breaks the surface that's an AIR threat, not a submarine threat). 

 

My credentials on this are as mentioned above, I have spent many years teaching basic and advanced anti submarine warfare for the Royal Navy in my capacity as an instructor at the Royal Navy School of Aircraft Control at RNAS Yeovilton, the Maritime Warfare School at HMS Collingwood and during a short stint at Flag Officer Sea Training at HMS Drake.  I've hunted Russian submarines in the North Sea, English Channel, Mediterranean and Atlantic and I've hunted Chinese submarines across the Indian Ocean. 

 

 

As for what kind of work SethK thinks he's going to be bidding for I have no idea, giant exercises with air/land/sea interoperability happen at least twice a year in the UK with massive take up from other NATO nations and the infrastructure required to plan and direct those exercises already exists.  As far as simulation goes BAE have us covered with a network of multifunction simulator suites that can be networked with each other and with real units, the MOD spent literally millions of pounds on these and I can't imagine a bloke with a shiny website and some Youtube links being able to convince the MOD that some airsoft guns are going to add anything to the party!

 

It's an alpaca you bigot!

 

I don't mince my words to be 'nice' to people on the internet, if that makes me a cunt, then I am a cunt. 

Thank you Cheeseright. 

[EvilMonkee]

@jcheeseright, wasn't on about you was referring to Duff me ol'fishead

[E21A]

10 hours ago, jcheeseright said:

(SONAR doesn't 'ping' anymore and depth charges haven't been a thing for destroying submarines for a few decades now, though they do still have uses in some very specific scenarios).  

 

Just out of interest ( as you clearly know what you’re on about) how do you destroy a submarine these days? 

[SgtTalbert]

32 minutes ago, E21A said:

 

Just out of interest ( as you clearly know what you’re on about) how do you destroy a submarine these days? 

 

Open a window or hatch would normally do it pretty quickly

[Rogerborg]

On 23/02/2019 at 16:12, L3wisD said:

But I'm not even sure what the topic is anymore

 

[jcheeseright]

1 hour ago, E21A said:

 

Just out of interest ( as you clearly know what you’re on about) how do you destroy a submarine these days? 

 

Air launched torpedo with an active seeker head.  

[L3wisD]

1 hour ago, E21A said:

Just out of interest ( as you clearly know what you’re on about) how do you destroy a submarine these days? 

 

Outside @E21As house later today:

 

[Lozart]

12 hours ago, jcheeseright said:

 

My credentials on this are as mentioned above, I have spent many years teaching basic and advanced anti submarine warfare for the Royal Navy in my capacity as an instructor at the Royal Navy School of Aircraft Control at RNAS Yeovilton, the Maritime Warfare School at HMS Collingwood and during a short stint at Flag Officer Sea Training at HMS Drake.  I've hunted Russian submarines in the North Sea, English Channel, Mediterranean and Atlantic and I've hunted Chinese submarines across the Indian Ocean. 

 

 

Is Synthetic Aperture Radar for remote sensing of submerged wake still a thing? Worked on that at Farnborough in my youth...

[Seth_Erebor]

12 hours ago, jcheeseright said:

 

There's no W in my name. 

 

What you're talking about is how submarines can have an effect upon the greater logistics of warfare, if you're going down that line Seth K needs to start simulating macroeconomics and poor defence policy too!  When it comes to actually fighting those battles the pre-logistics are utterly irrelevant, you either have the requisite equipment or you do not.  

 

Submarines can effect shipping and suchlike very effectively, but this still does not have any impact on how the specifics of anti-submarine warfare are conducted (SONAR doesn't 'ping' anymore and depth charges haven't been a thing for destroying submarines for a few decades now, though they do still have uses in some very specific scenarios).  

 

I can see where you're coming from, but the allocation of resources to finding and killing a submarine don't cross over with the resources required to fight a land battle, in addition the submarine itself cannot have any tangible effect on the land battle (submarine launched missiles are a thing, yes, but the second it breaks the surface that's an AIR threat, not a submarine threat). 

 

My credentials on this are as mentioned above, I have spent many years teaching basic and advanced anti submarine warfare for the Royal Navy in my capacity as an instructor at the Royal Navy School of Aircraft Control at RNAS Yeovilton, the Maritime Warfare School at HMS Collingwood and during a short stint at Flag Officer Sea Training at HMS Drake.  I've hunted Russian submarines in the North Sea, English Channel, Mediterranean and Atlantic and I've hunted Chinese submarines across the Indian Ocean. 

 

 

As for what kind of work SethK thinks he's going to be bidding for I have no idea, giant exercises with air/land/sea interoperability happen at least twice a year in the UK with massive take up from other NATO nations and the infrastructure required to plan and direct those exercises already exists.  As far as simulation goes BAE have us covered with a network of multifunction simulator suites that can be networked with each other and with real units, the MOD spent literally millions of pounds on these and I can't imagine a bloke with a shiny website and some Youtube links being able to convince the MOD that some airsoft guns are going to add anything to the party!

 

It's an alpaca you bigot!

 

I don't mince my words to be 'nice' to people on the internet, if that makes me a cunt, then I am a cunt. 

 

I agree 100% on all counts, including the ones directed at myself which are reasonable observations.

 

In other business, how would we help to direct the attitude in airsoft? I feel this deserves it's on thread.

It seems to be a wider cultural issue, so might be too big of an issue to tackle.

 

Someone mentioned being judged by the enemy team, there is something to that, earning mutual respect would be a great way to go. The game itself has to change, moving away from just hits being the be all and end all. 

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, Seth_K said:

The game itself has to change, moving away from just hits being the be all and end all. 

 

Almost all of the games that I play at my local site notionally have some objective like find/capture/defuse/escort the McGuffin which could be achieved with strong teamplay, good communication, and minimal actual shooting.

 

Most of the players seem to soon forget that and just start wandering around shooting each other.  Twice a day (before lunch and last game) the achievement or otherwise of the objective typically isn't even reported.

 

And yet, the site is constantly and heavily over-subscribed and sells out a month in advance.

 

Never mind the what or how for now: why should they change?  Player are demonstrably happy enough just shooting each other with toy guns.

[Seth_Erebor]

2 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Almost all of the games that I play at my local site notionally have some objective like find/capture/defuse/escort the McGuffin which could be achieved with strong teamplay, good communication, and minimal actual shooting.

 

Most of of the players seem to soon forget that and just start wandering around shooting each other.  Twice a day (before lunch and last game) the achievement or otherwise of the objective typically isn't even reported.

 

And yet, the site is constantly and heavily over-subscribed and sells out a month in advance.

 

Never mind the what or how for now: why should they change?  Player are demonstrably happy enough just shooting each other with toy guns.

 

That will always be the core of the experience, however, to ensure we foster a great community spirit is would be wise to encourage behavior that causes players to think about the team as a whole and not solely their own gratification.

 

I do have some ideas on how to do that, you know I like to add suggestions and not just general goals, but we'd be going over old ground.

 

Let's look elsewhere for an example, if the Call of Duty crowd is not desirable, what current group is the opposite to them?

[Wo1f]

You could fix the whole Airsoft community simply by banning mid/high caps.

 

i had an amazing game at the weekend, but there was a guy who was pissing me right off and he was on my own team. His answer to everything was to full auto an entire midcap at a player. One of their team tried to outflank us but we spotted her. She was behind a bush maybe 20m to our north west. The guy literally emptied and entire 100+ round midcap into it and couldn’t hear her shout hit or see her behind the bush over the noise of his gun. There’s no need for that shit. 

[Adolf Hamster]

5 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

You could fix the whole Airsoft community simply by banning mid/high caps.

 

i had an amazing game at the weekend, but there was a guy who was pissing me right off and he was on my own team. His answer to everything was to full auto an entire midcap at a player. One of their team tried to outflank us but we spotted her. She was behind a bush maybe 20m to our north west. The guy literally emptied and entire 100+ round midcap into it and couldn’t hear her shout hit or see her behind the bush over the noise of his gun. There’s no need for that shit. 

 

 

see that's not a problem with the equipment but the player, send a single shot/short burst first then move to mag dumping if it's really required.

 

smaller capacity magazines will just mean he'll switch to using a drum or just carry more.

[Tackle]

19 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Never mind the what or how for now: why should they change?  Player are demonstrably happy enough just shooting each other with toy guns.

Nothing better than a good old game of attack & defend, or capture the flag etc, what's the point of over complicated scenarios that half the punters are struggling to remember, while the other half haven't got a scooby cos they were chatting through the briefing etc.

Also, & this might just be my opinion ?, but I sometimes feel that the way some games & sites are hyped up is encouraging the excessive behaviour of some "operators", players, & sometimes whole teams that take it waaaay to seriously, forgetting that it's just meant to be a bit of fun, instead being overly aggressive in their playing style & attitude towards others players, as if they really are fighting the siege at fallujah or some other bollocks.

Dont get me wrong, I'll gladly crush the windpipe of some twat who gets in my face unnecessarily, but I shouldn't have to, I turn up for some simple gameplay at a well run site that hopefully has some decent features.

just seems to be getting harder to do these days ☹️

[Seth_Erebor]

18 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

You could fix the whole Airsoft community simply by banning mid/high caps.

 

i had an amazing game at the weekend, but there was a guy who was pissing me right off and he was on my own team. His answer to everything was to full auto an entire midcap at a player. One of their team tried to outflank us but we spotted her. She was behind a bush maybe 20m to our north west. The guy literally emptied and entire 100+ round midcap into it and couldn’t hear her shout hit or see her behind the bush over the noise of his gun. There’s no need for that shit. 

 

We covered this before and I recall coming to the conclusion that 60rnds is a good balance, which is a 2x handicap over real steel.

Now to get a 60rnd SCAR-H mag from PTS to test it.

[EvilMonkee]

3 hours ago, Seth_K said:

 

I agree 100% on all counts, including the ones directed at myself which are reasonable observations.

 

In other business, how would we help to direct the attitude in airsoft? I feel this deserves it's on thread.

It seems to be a wider cultural issue, so might be too big of an issue to tackle.

 

Someone mentioned being judged by the enemy team, there is something to that, earning mutual respect would be a great way to go. The game itself has to change, moving away from just hits being the be all and end all. 

 

And this is why I go to historical Film Sim games mostly, the emphasis is on the LARPy aspects and the uniforms and the story rather than OMFG I got 20 kills and died once skirmish day bullshit.

[EvilMonkee]

22 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

You could fix the whole Airsoft community simply by banning mid/high caps.

 

i had an amazing game at the weekend, but there was a guy who was pissing me right off and he was on my own team. His answer to everything was to full auto an entire midcap at a player. One of their team tried to outflank us but we spotted her. She was behind a bush maybe 20m to our north west. The guy literally emptied and entire 100+ round midcap into it and couldn’t hear her shout hit or see her behind the bush over the noise of his gun. There’s no need for that shit. 

Fairly certain thats called 'Shooting to yield' and should be against most sites rules, certainly is at Gunman events.

[Wo1f]

29 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

 

see that's not a problem with the equipment but the player, send a single shot/short burst first then move to mag dumping if it's really required.

 

smaller capacity magazines will just mean he'll switch to using a drum or just carry more.

Yeah, but it’s more politically correct than banning the people who do it, who all seem to fit a certain profile. Its embarrassingly accurate to the point if someone complains of being overshot or general shit gameplay I can describe them without ever having seen them.  

[Adolf Hamster]

16 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

Yeah, but it’s more politically correct than banning the people who do it, who all seem to fit a certain profile. Its embarrassingly accurate to the point if someone complains of being overshot or general shit gameplay I can describe them without ever having seen them.  

 

eh, i don't really care for the political correctness of it, if you're a bad player you're a bad player. just make sure you're banning people for their actions rather than pre-emptively.

 

if it's any consolation i know the type you're referring to and in my experience they have a habit of not knowing how to set a hop unit right (which just adds fuel to their rage when their ammo gets skied over their potential victim)

[Seth_Erebor]

13 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

eh, i don't really care for the political correctness of it, if you're a bad player you're a bad player. just make sure you're banning people for their actions rather than pre-emptively.

 

if it's any consolation i know the type you're referring to and in my experience they have a habit of not knowing how to set a hop unit right (which just adds fuel to their rage when their ammo gets skied over their potential victim)

 

In relation to your second paragraph, I am in favour of taking Airsoft a tad bit more seriously and changing the 3 game rule to a pass/fail system.

 

It would include a few basics, like the hop-up, wind, estimating range, etc

A bit like a CBT course, 1-day and simple. Done right it could make the world of difference in directing a new player in the right direction.

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Seth_K said:

That will always be the core of the experience, however, to ensure we foster a great community spirit is would be wise to encourage behavior that causes players to think about the team as a whole and not solely their own gratification.

 

I actually agree.

 

One thing I've seen tried was to make the first game of the day "find the drug blocks".  They're stashed in a box that can be raided, which is usually how that game is won.

 

The twist was that they then kept the blocks in play throughout the day.  So you could be doing a VIP escort, then suddenly realise that your stash was being raided half way across the site.

 

It was an intriguing idea, and I'm glad to see it tried.  Where it fell down a bit was a somewhat haphazard scoring system, and no announcement at the end of the day who won overall.  That could have been addressed with scores-on-the-board at the safe zone entrance. 

[Adolf Hamster]

8 minutes ago, Seth_K said:

 

In relation to your second paragraph, I am in favour of taking Airsoft a tad bit more seriously and changing the 3 game rule to a pass/fail system.

 

It would include a few basic, like the hop-up, wind, estimating range, etc

A bit like a CBT course, 1-day and simple. Done right it could make the world of difference in directing a new player in the right direction.

 

these folks aren't "new" players generally, and often they can have quite high end hardware, just no understanding of how it works.

 

i don't mind it that much, if i see a decent player struggling with hardware i'll stop and let them know, but if someone's hosing everything in sight and screaming about people not taking hits when their gun's hopping into space i won't encourage them by offering help.

[ImTriggerHappy]

20 minutes ago, Seth_K said:

 

In relation to your second paragraph, I am in favour of taking Airsoft a tad bit more seriously and changing the 3 game rule to a pass/fail system.

 

It would include a few basics, like the hop-up, wind, estimating range, etc

A bit like a CBT course, 1-day and simple. Done right it could make the world of difference in directing a new player in the right direction.

Er.........................just no 

 

Airsoft is not serious, it is not a military simulation it is just fucking hide and seek with a bb gun.