Engagement Distance for Snipers

[Reef]

Hello,

 

I'm going to ask this question at our local site this weekend but was wondering on the thoughts of the collective.

 

We've just bought a VSR10 and reading the local sites rules the engagement distance is 30m for snipers.  I've worked out that the joule rating of the VSR10 will be around 1.16 max and at the site says snipers can go up to 2.3 Joule. This makes me think that the gun will be woefully underpowered for 30m. 

 

My questions are, why is the distance set on the type of gun and not the joule/power? As the rifle is lower powered is it the 'done thing' to engage at a closer distance? 

 

Sorry if this is a daft question, I'm sure I'm missing something.

 

[Tackle]

Not daft on your part, the sites are making a very common assumption that any snipers will be running at or close to their maximum limit, whereas your out of the box sniper is only doing close to the aeg limit , which would seem unfair. 

Best thing you could do is explain this to the site, give them a call & see if they'll allow you to run it with a different contact criteria, explain its running at aeg levels & until you get it upgraded, it's more about practicing the field craft than getting long range kills.

[Egon_247]

When you Chrono the gun the marshall should tell you if you have an med or not. At 1.16j you're still in auto/AEG territory.

Have you worked it out or have you chrono'd it? On what weight ammo?

[Adolf Hamster]

As tackle says the main reason i can think is simply stereotypes.

 

Practically what matters for an med is that the bb has some time to drop in owchiness, so it should on paper be only the energy level that counts regardless of the pew type.

 

But on the ground, i can see many an argument being levied of "oi sniper that's not 30m", so maybe easier to just to limit everything people think is going to be an med gun regardless of it's actual power level.

[Sewdhull]

It would be difficult to treat each gun on a case by case basis and get this communicated out to people and it not cause management issues.

Med is somewhat arbitrary because of the energy loss over relatively short distances is considerable and is more with a greater starting energy.

However rules are rules.

[Impulse]

1 hour ago, Reef said:

My questions are, why is the distance set on the type of gun and not the joule/power? As the rifle is lower powered is it the 'done thing' to engage at a closer distance? 

 

If you're unsure at your local site, I'd just speak with the marshalls and clarify. I can't imagine they'd saddle you with an MED if you're shooting at 1.14J or lower, but they may decide to because they're lazy they don't want to have people running around with 2.3J sniper rifles point-blanking people and then claiming "no, I'm at 1J".

 

Typically "AEG", "DMR" and "Sniper Rifle" are more classifications than actual RIF types. I've never been told at any site or event I've been to (outside of AI500) that I can't use a bolt action rifle at 1.14J or lower and then shoot up close like everyone else. For example, when I play Vietnam filmsim events at Gunman, they have a sniper ban during the summer where DMRs and sniper rifles are banned because the ferns grow high and it's harder to find angles without creeping into your MED. However, they still allow me to use my m700, very much a bolt action rifle with a scope on it, as long as I set it to 1.14J or under, because at that point it's just the same as anyone's AEG, just a lot quieter, typically more accurate and more satisfying to hunt GIs with  

 

I've never been to a site or event that has told me I still have to have an MED if I have a bolt action rifle (or a gun that looks and acts like a DMR) at 1.14J or under. At some sites a 1.14J bolt action is far more useful, like Gunman Eversley during the summer due to their sniper ban, and also my local Worthing Airsoft as while they don't have a ban, the site becomes even more woodland CQB during the summer because of how much it bushes up.

 

The only difference was AI500. They didn't let me bring one of my 1.14J bolt actions to the shopping centre one for no other reason apart from they said "no sniper rifles", even though it was under the power limits and actively would've made my life more difficult (CQB with a bolt action is a challenge, but a thrill!). They also had a moan at me at the Citadel one when I brought my m21 because it looks like a sniper rifle, but I said "it's an m14 with a scope. It's just a battle rifle and the power is under 1.14J" and so they didn't stop me from using it. So that's the only example I have of a site/event classing guns based on how the action works / what they look like.

 

Also, it can go the other way (somewhat). I've seen people running arp9s with drum mags as "DMRs" because they're locked to semi-auto and the power is higher, though most events and some regular sites will specify that a DMR has to be a RIF based on a real-world DMR, like an m14, SR-25, mk12 etc. DMR rules are the thing that varies the most from site to site, as they could be 1.48J, 1.64J or 1.88J depending on the site, some sites mandate a stock, some sites require specific RIFs like I said earlier.

[Reef]

1 hour ago, Egon_247 said:

Have you worked it out or have you chrono'd it? On what weight ammo?

I've just worked it out using an online calculator on .28 BB's which I'm planning on using.

Totally get that it would be impractical to treat each gun on a case by case biases and I will stick to the 30m rule if asked too.  

I'll talk to the marshals when I get the gun chrono'd on Saturday and see what's said.

 

Thanks for the input and glad it wasn't a stupid question

 

 

8 minutes ago, Impulse said:

 

If you're unsure at your local site, I'd just speak with the marshalls and clarify. I can't imagine they'd saddle you with an MED if you're shooting at 1.14J or lower,

 

Thanks Impulse, I will take .2, .25, .28 BB's with me so if needs be I can make sure I'm under the 1.14J limit. The marshalls have been really helpful so far at the site so I'll take their advice.

Personally I don't have an issue with the 30m limit but my son who's 12 wants to use the rifle and I don't think he can judge distances as well as me, I don't want to get him into trouble or piss off other players. We don't have sidearms (yet).

 

My son and i will come down to Worthing Airsoft soon, only heard good things about this place.   

[Rogerborg]

It's not an unreasonable assumption that anyone using a bolt action is going to have thrown in a spring that pushes it up to the site limit.  Bear in mind that the marshals and other players aren't going to know what energy you're shooting at, so prepare to get shouted at for engaging up close even if it's down at the lower end.

 

That said, there are folk who run bolt actions at under 1.14J in order to not have a MED.  And if you're just a bit over, and don't have a sidearm, a pragmatic site owner might tell you to just not point-blank anyone with it - see what they say.  On the other hand, some sites can be (understandably) strict about their rules as they're conditions of insurance.

 

Generally you want to run the heaviest BB that your hop will lift (and your wallet will stand) in a sniper.  I'd be looking at using at least 0.32g, ideally over 0.4g if the hop can lift it.  If you drop down to a lighter BB to de-creep the energy down to under 1.14J, fair enough, but you're giving up one of the advantages of a bolt-action where you need every shot to be as consistent and to carry its energy as far as possible.

 

I'd keep your expectations very low for a stock boltie - you're going to be outgunned by just about everybody else there.  Fingers crossed that it all goes well and you enjoy the manual action.

[Reef]

Thanks Rogerborg, 

 

I've got a lot to learn on this, I've never fired a boltie and haven't put a round through our new gun yet. I'll see what happens the weekend and report back

 

I think we've fallen into the typical noob trap of getting over excited and buying loads of stuff. Hey ho, what else is money for.  

[rj1986]

One thing i've learnt with snipers (in general) is that the size of a meter differs depending if they're working out the MED or if they're trying to sell it

Edited April 3 by rj1986

[BigStew]

From a marshalls point of view yes you shouldn't be subjected to a MED, but other than giving lower powered bolt action/DMRs highly visible tags it's too much of a ball ache trying to distinguish who should have a MED. Especially having to constantly deal with with players who don't understand what a snipers role is and try to do base clearance with a high-powered gun.

[Rogerborg]

4 hours ago, Reef said:

I think we've fallen into the typical noob trap of getting over excited and buying loads of stuff. Hey ho, what else is money for.  

 

Practically mandatory.  I enjoy bolt action, it's a different style of play. And (especially when you're defensive) you're often within the range of other guns anyway, even if you're shooting at 2.3J.  Sneak and poke and have fun with it, it's all good.

[Fatboy40]

6 hours ago, Reef said:

I've got a lot to learn on this, I've never fired a boltie and haven't put a round through our new gun yet. I'll see what happens the weekend and report back

 

If you live close to Dogtag then maybe get yourself over to Socom Tactical or Surplus Store before you play and get a stronger VSR spring, and you may be lucky and they can help you fit it there and then if you bring your pew pew with you

[Egon_247]

8 hours ago, Reef said:

 

 

Thanks for the input and glad it wasn't a stupid question

 

 

 

 

Only stupid question is one you don't ask. 👍😁

 

 

[Reef]

1 hour ago, Fatboy40 said:

 

If you live close to Dogtag then maybe get yourself over to Socom Tactical or Surplus Store before you play and get a stronger VSR spring, and you may be lucky and they can help you fit it there and then if you bring your pew pew with you

We actually bought the rifle from Surplus Store. I won’t be able to get over there before Saturday but happy to give it a go with stock spring.

I found a hank of rope in the garage that is 30m and laid it out, it’s actually not as far as I thought. Looks like our usual engagement distance for our AR’s on a wide game to be honest.

 

Thanks for all the help and advice, really appreciated.

 

 

[Badgerlicious]

8 hours ago, Reef said:

I've never fired a boltie and haven't put a round through our new gun yet. I'll see what happens the weekend and report back

 

Definitely put a chrono at the top of your "to buy" list. Especially if you plan on doing any work on you boltie (or any gun). 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

Good advice given on this thread!

 

I love running a sub 350fps bolty.  I use .32s as they are a good compromise with cost v ultimate 'liftability.'  I play at Gunman sites, and Josh usually asks anyone daft enough to use a sub-350fps bolty to say at the safety brief.  This avoids the 'He's cheating/shooting within the MED' crap.  You could ask the chaps at your site to do the same if they don't already.  For short range, get a bayonet fitted...

 

I find that I immerse myself far more with my K98.  I think harder, use fieldcraft more and don't walk shots in as much.   If you have a look at the day write ups thread, there are a few posts that give advice on getting the most out of your rif.  Impulse is a bit of a guru in this department, but don't tell him I said so!

 

 

[Rogerborg]

Yarp, there's a lot of satisfaction to be had from getting a hit while playing in Hard Mode, using energy that you've put in yourself.  It feels more personal.

[Reef]

Well I said I’d report back.

 

I think the gun crono’d at 1.17 with .28 BB’s. Marshall’s said we had to adhere to the 30m rule which was fine. We will use the heavier BB’s as recommended by you guys next time but I’d already bought the .28’s so thought we’d use them as a test.

 

How did the games go? No idea, my son took the rifle and hogged it the whole time… He said it was excellent and really enjoyed using it. The only game where he switched to his other gun was the last game which was a CQB.

He said we need to get a Bipod as it was hard to hold for long periods, can anyone recommend one?

 

Hopefully I’ll get a look in next time we play but I’ve just seen him searching for ghilly suits so I’m not sure.

 

 

[concretesnail]

I'm glad to hear it was enjoyed. Ii found Bipods are a mixed bag and gave up using one, instead I use a rip off pouch and put soft stuff in it. Then rip it off to use as a sandbag style rest when need.

[Hatchet]

Same with the bipod. Most of the time they're just dead weight and you're better off bracing against an arm/leg/tree, etc. Particularly with VSR, adding a bipod is probably going to near double the weight anyway (okay, a slight exaggeration, but then again I've got this Parker-Hale bipod that probably makes that an accurate statement)

 

Usually bipods end up just being used to stand the gun in the safe zone on rather than shoot from, unless you're talking something particularly heavy (support weapon, EBR-14, etc). However, if you're determined to have one, I'd suggest something like a Harris - I'm sure there are plenty of clones but I've not used them. They're lightweight and quick to deploy with spring loaded legs and usually the ability to cant to one side or other to keep the rifle level.

[Reef]

Thanks, I told him to just use the terrain or branches to hold the gun up. Anything that makes it notably heavier I think is bad news, one of its key things is it’s so light. 
I’ll get him to try again and see what he says.

Great idea on the pouch, I’ve used something similar for camera lenses in the past.

[Impulse]

I'm a massive advocate for bipods, but on something lightweight like a VSR it isn't worth it. As @Hatchet said, it almost doubles the weight, or at least it feels like it because it massively shifts the weight of the rifle because it's lightweight by itself, so a large lump of metal near the front makes it front heavy and nasty to handle. For heavier stuff like M14s it's worth it because they're heavier, so harder to hold up for long periods of time anyway, and also because they're heavier the bipod doesn't have such a massive impact on the balance of the rifle, but I wouldn't put one on a VSR unless you get the heavier Maple Leaf stock; the regular stock and receiver setup's strength is that it's so light.

 

The sand sock has been used in the military for a long time. It's basically just a sock that is filled with sand and then tied off so it's a good rifle rest. I liked @concretesnail's idea of getting a tear-off pouch and filling it with soft stuff and then using that as a rest, as that's likely going to be fairly lightweight and can be worn on a belt kit or chest rig so you won't feel the weight much anyway, but will give you a steady place to rest your rifle when in a hide position.

 

Glad to hear the lad enjoyed running around with a bolt action, even one that was under-powered and still saddled with an MED; it's a very satisfying way of playing for sure! I would actually focus on the rifle before going for a ghillie though, as he'll learn better camo and concealment fieldcraft if he doesn't get reliant on a ghillie suit. It's amazing what you can do with good camo and concealment skills while wearing regular DPM, or even just flat olive drab! I see a lot of ghillie snipers who have awful fieldcraft and they're incredibly easy to counter-snipe. Having a rifle that performs well is always useful though and I'm sure he'll appreciate it when he's able to reach out to 75m with decent accuracy.

[Reef]

Thanks impulse, he’s been watching people like Sillyghillie and CamMan, I’ve just seen the prices of a decent suit so yes, field craft will come first!

The rest I used to have for camera lenses had polystyrene balls inside so was light and you could shape them, bit like a small beanbag. I also think the idea or Velcro is great, I’ll see what I can come up with.

[Badgerlicious]

I'd say if you spend a lot of time prone and needing to stay dead still for 10+ minures, then a bipod is worthwhile. Otherwise you can often find something to rest it on. 

 

On ghillies, a concealment vest is about £40 and is an excellent base to craft on, no need to go for the expensive suits right away. BDUs + net + shoe goo is even cheaper. Green and brown cotton can be cheap, but tricky to get the right colours online. The ghillie packs of cotton are good colours but more expensive. Raffia is very cheap, nutscene do some excellent dyed colours. 

 

But good field craft is required to make it effective. 

Edited April 7 by Badgerlicious
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