The ghillie discussion

[ruben0]

8 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

camouflage is not used to hide you, its to disrupt the outline of the human shape

 

Disrupting the outline of your shape is what hides you from the human eye... it's like saying the purpose of an engine isn't to move the car, but just to turn the wheels... 

 

I'm personally for restricting full ghillies to BASR only. Especially when so many like to wear it in a way that the leaves drape over their armbands - you can become completely invisible on some of the more densely wooded sites. If you're going to have such an advantage you ought to have a role-appropriate "disadvantage" for the sake of not boring new players away by lurking in a bush and farming their group over and over without them even getting a chance to fight back

[LMKipper]

That's the even bigger fear really isn't it - a rental turning up, getting hosed by a rhododendron repeatedly seconds after respawning then just heading home and never bothering again.

[Mad dog 49]

I've crafted my own "ghillie". I put it in inverted commas because it's not a full suit with the trousers and all that malarkey, it's just a viper mesh jacket that covers head, shoulders and down my back. I made a rifle wrap to match and realistically that's all I really need to cover up if I pick my spot to hide properly. I only wear it when I've got my BASR in my mitts. I take it off to run anything else because, well, its just not sporting. 

 

As others have said, rentals won't get what us happening to them or appreciate the skill that a good sniper has employed to brass them up without being seen.....then again, the majority of ghillie wearers I have met on a casual skirmish day are utterly clueless about actual stealth and think they are fucking Batfink, "your plastic balls cannot harm me, my leaves are like a shield of steel!" kind of thing.

 

I think ghillie is for BASR only, just my twopenneth.

Thinking about an alternative that let's anyone use a ghillie. A ghillie wearer, not using a BASR is required to shout "Nee" once every 30 seconds.....and if there are two of them working as a team, one has to be slightly higher than the other to create a nice little two level effect to the shrubbery.

[Tommikka]

10 hours ago, Badgerlicious said:

so what's camouflage doing if it's not hiding you? 

 

10 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

camouflage is not used to hide you, its to disrupt the outline of the human shape to make you harder to shoot at ranges of 300m+ i could have non camouflage clothing on standing still in woods and not untill i move would you see me 

 

10 hours ago, Badgerlicious said:

Okay, and the point of a ghillie is to move through an observed area unseen, so I'm not sure what you point is. 

 

And that's the use case of military issued camouflage clothing, not all camouflage. 

 

10 hours ago, Impulse said:

 

 

Could've fooled me...

The origin of the word camouflage comes from the French to disguise.

 

This still envelopes the military use, which is more than just hiding something to be unseen - it’s actually more about disguising what you do see as opposed to not being seen - especially to be seen but not noticed.

WW1 dazzle camouflage is a perfect illustration that camouflage isn’t about avoiding being seen but to disguise what you see and delay/prevent your opposition from being able to quickly identify what has been seen and to delay the understanding of its size, distance, direction, speed etc

 

A ghillie might hit the sweet spot of being invisible, but being harder to notice, identify and understand the body shape is a success for the ghillied player.

The enemy of the ghillie is movement, and equally the enemy of the player in jeans & hoody is movement 

We notice movement, then we interpret whether that thing that just moved is a threat or not.  That buys time for the quiet player

 

 

[Pseudotectonic]

don't think there is/was human sized dazzle camouflage, would look sick tho

[Impulse]

8 hours ago, Mad dog 49 said:

I've crafted my own "ghillie". I put it in inverted commas because it's not a full suit with the trousers and all that malarkey, it's just a viper mesh jacket that covers head, shoulders and down my back. I made a rifle wrap to match and realistically that's all I really need to cover up if I pick my spot to hide properly. I only wear it when I've got my BASR in my mitts. I take it off to run anything else because, well, its just not sporting. 

 

Same as me, except I also use it when DMRing, though I play that the same as my bolt action and is why I would ideally still like to be able to ghillie with a DMR. I actually prefer the head, shoulders and cape over the full 360 suit including trousers, because a full 360 suit gets caught on absolutely everything and drags half the forest floor with me when I crawl around. As you say, head, shoulders and cape with a rifle wrap covers basically everything that needs covering.

 

Cobra hood (which is still uncrafted...) and rifle wrap is for anything else, and I've pulled off some stupid sneaky spots in that setup, even in a plain black t-shirt and plain OD trousers...

[Davet]

I’m indifferent to getting ghillie’d up, done my time lying on the ground observing and trying not to be seen, and am quite happy running around but with a bit of sneakiness, employing fieldcraft and tactical awareness, every now and then to ambush the unsuspecting.  It is annoying when sniper spawn camping happens and I’ve seen people get frustrated and leave because they can’t be bothered and aren’t enjoying the stalemate, then again, I see it as a challenge to my own skills to get out, flank and employ some counter sniper.

 

If it’s talk of applying restrictions on numbers of snipers, etc, then maybe look at a ratio similar to a Lt Inf Bn 1 sniper to every 34-35 bods and got to operate as a pair - sniper pairs the only ones who could use suits as DMR is just a 7.62 capability in a rifle section. Ok, maybe a little bit closer to milsim but the game is all still just playing soldiers, just to differing levels of seriousness.

 

But then, like I mentioned elsewhere and others have pointed out here, a ghillie suit isn’t an instant invisibility cloak, patience and good fieldcraft are just as effective when employed properly.

Edited April 9 by Davet

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

don't think there is/was human sized dazzle camouflage, would look sick tho

There is …..

 

These are intended to avoid facial recognition on CCTV etc, and are therefore also a form of camouflage.

 

When we had our automated sentry gun, it would always prefer to aim at my head during testing, setting up etc.

When browsing the the AIs reference pictures we observed two things:

 

1) The torso presented the largest and most obvious target, but images captured in the tracking sequences were sometimes inconsistent, our conclusion was that though MTP/multicam is lighter in contrast to the UKs woodland, the disruptive pattern broke up the human shape and though movement was clearly visible prediction of where that movement was going became inconsistent.  The head was a more consistent shape, and the human body tries to keep the head steady when moving, making tracking and prediction more accurate

 

2) We realised that the AI still had its initial reference images from the first test runs with a football, heads are close enough to a ball shape and moved in similar trajectories (less the bouncing)

 

With two or three targets the system could predict and switch back and forth between where each of the heads would be by the time the barrel switched back

 

On a camouflage perspective for players, we might see a player but we still need to recognise, assess the threat and predict where it will be.

A moving target is easier to see, but we have to guess where to shoot 

A stationary target may not be so obvious, is easy to point at once identified, but not an immediate threat unless their barrel is pointed at us 

 

As well as ghillies waiting for an opportunity, the sneaky players who quietly but blatently stroll behind your lines may be ‘camouflaging’ with non aggressive actions

[DaktariT]

Sod ghillie suit, get yourself one of these.

 

 

[Impulse]

35 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

As well as ghillies waiting for an opportunity, the sneaky players who quietly but blatently stroll behind your lines may be ‘camouflaging’ with non aggressive actions

 

That's another hotly debated topic as some people consider it cheating. Personally, if I see someone walking nonchalantly and their hand isn't in the air, they're getting a shot to the plate carrier. One of my friends is really good at doing this, walking nonchalantly with his rifle in hand past the enemy team and then shooting them in the back, and it's something we do at Vietnam filmsims as well, but with a hidden pistol tucked into the trousers and no rifle in hand.

 

"No VC, civilian, civilian!" *blam blam blam*

[Pseudotectonic]

@Tommikka While it is interesting technology, I think there might be a certain upper limit in terms of technology in airsoft, when you start having turrets and robots and AI and what not, the game starts to leave the premise of small arms warfare, does your turret have a torso sized target for shooting at, and can it call hits and walk itself back to respawn?

 

And if it is just a matter of who has the most number of advanced AI / robots to spawn onto the field, is it still airsoft, or is it just Command and Conquer simulator? Where would be the line?

 

That is not to say automated turrets or drones or AI etc cannot be airsoft, but I think there should be some sort of rule or principles for the airsoft arms race, and I think the principle of risk vs reward and gameplay fairness should apply, because surely you cannot pay-to-swarm the field with automated suicide flying pistol turrets, if that is what it comes down to, unless both teams are exclusively using the same stuff (meanwhile the rentals with their JGs in hand are confused they'd gone to a wrong game under the buzzing airspace)

--

 

And accordingly, is there a dazzle camo pattern for human clothing and for human opponents?

[Tackle]

2 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

@Tommikka While it is interesting technology, I think there might be a certain upper limit in terms of technology in airsoft, when you start having turrets and robots and AI and what not, the game starts to leave the premise of small arms warfare, does your turret have a torso sized target for shooting at, and can it call hits and walk itself back to respawn?

 

And if it is just a matter of who has the most number of advanced AI / robots to spawn onto the field, is it still airsoft, or is it just Command and Conquer simulator? Where would be the line?

 

That is not to say automated turrets or drones or AI etc cannot be airsoft, but I think there should be some sort of rule or principles for the airsoft arms race, and I think the principle of risk vs reward and gameplay fairness should apply, because surely you cannot pay-to-swarm the field with automated suicide flying pistol turrets, if that is what it comes down to, unless both teams are exclusively using the same stuff (meanwhile the rentals with their JGs in hand are confused they'd gone to a wrong game under the buzzing airspace)

--

 

And accordingly, is there a dazzle camo pattern for human clothing and for human opponents?

Surely to a lesser degree, every m4 boxmag dsg wanker is doing the same, trying to get an unfair (?) advantage by essentially trying to put down 2 or 3 times the bbs downrange against their opponents, all elements of realism are lost, as similar rof chainguns aren't commonplace on the infantry battlefield, yet walk on days are full of dsg wankers😜

 

Edit: what if said dsg jizzbucket turned up at a site & at the chrono the rof was also checked, & the Marshall says "nah sorry mate, your doing more than 18rps, it's a wankergun, you can only use it with lo-caps, & if you've got none,we'll rent you some we've got here, but they are painted yellow" 🤣

 

Definitely food for thought😈

Edited April 9 by Tackle

[Cannonfodder]

9 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

don't think there is/was human sized dazzle camouflage, would look sick tho

As for AI sentry guns

There was also a trial of facial recognition software done years ago by HOSDB. From what I heard it went almost just as badly with a high number of misses and false positives 

 

As for players nonchalantly walking into other teams lines, I wouldn't call a lack of situational awareness cheating

Edited April 9 by Cannonfodder

[Tommikka]

4 hours ago, Impulse said:

 

That's another hotly debated topic as some people consider it cheating. Personally, if I see someone walking nonchalantly and their hand isn't in the air, they're getting a shot to the plate carrier. One of my friends is really good at doing this, walking nonchalantly with his rifle in hand past the enemy team and then shooting them in the back, and it's something we do at Vietnam filmsims as well, but with a hidden pistol tucked into the trousers and no rifle in hand.

 

"No VC, civilian, civilian!" *blam blam blam*

I’m with you on ‘dead man walking’

As long as you aren’t actually cheating (hand up to walk through as a dead player then shooting), and in line with event rules then it’s valid

(I also encourage those willing to risk it in my game rules)

 

If in doubt challenge / shoot.

If it’s a problem then adopt clear systems such as dead rags

 

 

(but this is another thread diversion with an often argued topic)

4 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

@Tommikka While it is interesting technology, I think there might be a certain upper limit in terms of technology in airsoft, when you start having turrets and robots and AI and what not, the game starts to leave the premise of small arms warfare,

 

 

does your turret have a torso sized target for shooting at, and can it call hits and walk itself back to respawn?

 

 

It doesn’t, and is now deceased, following the great lightning strike fire of Ironsight 

4 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

@Tommikka

 

And if it is just a matter of who has the most number of advanced AI / robots to spawn onto the field, is it still airsoft, or is it just Command and Conquer simulator? Where would be the line?

 

That is not to say automated turrets or drones or AI etc cannot be airsoft, but I think there should be some sort of rule or principles for the airsoft arms race, and I think the principle of risk vs reward and gameplay fairness should apply, because surely you cannot pay-to-swarm the field with automated suicide flying pistol turrets, if that is what it comes down to, unless both teams are exclusively using the same stuff (meanwhile the rentals with their JGs in hand are confused they'd gone to a wrong game under the buzzing airspace)

--

 

Our turret was an event prop/objective, not for players to turn up and use but for players to try and pass or defeat

 

It did have a variety of disablement systems - for safety purposes as a kill switch system, and player activated controls to ‘kill’ it

 

As seen on TV, and an upcoming card game

 

Solaco RIP

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Cannonfodder said:

As for AI sentry guns

There was also a trial of facial recognition software done years ago by HOSDB. From what I heard it went almost just as badly with a high number of misses and false positives 

 

As for players nonchalantly walking into other teams lines, I wouldn't call a lack of situational awareness cheating

The ‘intelligence’ of AI are highly exaggerated

It has its uses, but many more limitations 

[Tackle]

1 hour ago, Tommikka said:

The ‘intelligence’ of AI are highly exaggerated

It has its uses, but many more limitations 

Tell that to the conspiracy nutters 🤪

[Pseudotectonic]

Re walking nonchalantly, I would say depends on how nonchalantly you are walking you are effectively "pretending to be not in-game" therefore cheating. That is similar to sparring in any sort of fights, you drop your stance, make your mate think you are not playing, and then making a cheap shot, surely this "false signalling" is a form of cheating. Marshal discretion should apply here, if you see a wandering seemingly dead guy walking towards the wrong spawn, you might want to at least turn him around?

 

Re @Tommikka ok I guess if it is part of the "map" so it is effectively environmental damage it would be fair I suppose.

 

Also poor lad falling into the water, there are rat's trap with the same design designed for killing rats, surely it doesn't add anything to the tactical gameplay more than a level and normal bridge, and surely it should have been removed during risk assessment?

 

Re Taylor Swift lol, you know when prototype cars goes to road testing and they have these blank and white camo patterns to hide their shape... this is it, this is what we need!

 

Re AI I fear it is only a matter of time we have effective airsoft bots, I mean they are developing exponentially fast, I suspect we are less than a decade away from effective biped robots in military with an AI comparable to Forrest Gump, and then civilian markets less than a decade from that

[Cannonfodder]

9 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Re walking nonchalantly, I would say depends on how nonchalantly you are walking you are effectively "pretending to be not in-game" therefore cheating.

I can see where you're coming from but it's also the prerogative of anyone who isn't in-game to make it  clear, whether that's by a hand in the air, dead rags or shouts of "dead man walking". Not doing these tells me the player is a legitimate target

[Colin Allen]

35 minutes ago, Cannonfodder said:

I can see where you're coming from but it's also the prerogative of anyone who isn't in-game to make it  clear, whether that's by a hand in the air, dead rags or shouts of "dead man walking". Not doing these tells me the player is a legitimate target

Agreed!  If you aren't making it clear you are out of the game, you get shot.

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, Pseudotectonic said:

 

 

Also poor lad falling into the water, there are rat's trap with the same design designed for killing rats, surely it doesn't add anything to the tactical gameplay more than a level and normal bridge, and surely it should have been removed during risk assessment?

 

 

I’d agree with you there, we were hired for someone else’s event and that fallen tree shouldn’t have been used as a bridge - ideally it should be cut away at the water if left in situ 

1 hour ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Re walking nonchalantly, I would say depends on how nonchalantly you are walking you are effectively "pretending to be not in-game" therefore cheating. That is similar to sparring in any sort of fights, you drop your stance, make your mate think you are not playing, and then making a cheap shot, surely this "false signalling" is a form of cheating. Marshal discretion should apply here, if you see a wandering seemingly dead guy walking towards the wrong spawn, you might want to at least turn him around?

 

 

I would prefer marshals to err on their discretion side, drawing minimal attention, giving light direction to a potential lost respawnee without giving away a sneaky player

 

It would be similar to a hi vis dressed marshal walking up to a player crawling through the long grass

 

 

There are rules about how to walk when eliminated, the general minimum is to raise your arm, which we all drop on a long walk but we know that we should raise/announce our status if we encounter players, call out when approaching corners or doorways inside etc 

[Tommikka]

I sacrificed a great photo sequence when I spotted a dead man walking in a tournament

 

There was only one exit out of the field, behind him.  Tournament rules alone specify taking the shortest route to the side then out so he was clearly in breach if he had been eliminated 

 

His gun failed, so he kept ducked down trying to fix it and the opposing team forgot about him.

He stood up, stepped to the edge* ( still in the boundary ) walked towards the oppositions rear and then across to the central scoring bunker for the buzzer
 

* note that this site was very old in the tournament world with the netting & posts at exactly regulation size, so there was no out of bounds on the edge -  he could have hugged the net line remaining in game being more deceptive, but clearly and openly walked on

One of the referees did challenge him for going the wrong way, and he quietly said that he’s not out.

I desperately wanted the photos but I would have drawn attention so waited until he sped across for the buzzer

 

There were complaints, but it was a valid winning move - to official rules

[Rogerborg]

19 hours ago, DaktariT said:

 

 

Surely that should be V.A.T.S. included?

 

[Badgerlicious]

Well, Worthing went through with the new limitations to ghillies. Nothing below a viper hood (shoulders) with 1.14j full auto. DMR and bolt actions only for anything longer or a full ghillie. However they have upped their DMR limits to 1.88j so we're in line with most other sites now, which is nice. 

 

At least I now have an excuse to finish my viper hood and buy some better combats. 

[Colin Allen]

1 hour ago, Badgerlicious said:

Well, Worthing went through with the new limitations to ghillies. Nothing below a viper hood (shoulders) with 1.14j full auto. DMR and bolt actions only for anything longer or a full ghillie. However they have upped their DMR limits to 1.88j so we're in line with most other sites now, which is nice. 

 

At least I now have an excuse to finish my viper hood and buy some better combats. 

That is a step in the right direction.

[Impulse]

1 hour ago, Badgerlicious said:

Well, Worthing went through with the new limitations to ghillies. Nothing below a viper hood (shoulders) with 1.14j full auto. DMR and bolt actions only for anything longer or a full ghillie. However they have upped their DMR limits to 1.88j so we're in line with most other sites now, which is nice. 

 

At least I now have an excuse to finish my viper hood and buy some better combats. 

 

I was very happy to see it. I was already going to move towards primarily using guns with MEDs even with the old DMR limit of 1.64J, so I'll be happy to keep my m14 and MWS tuned up to 1.88J instead.

[mirinjawbro]

counter strike camp o metre mod.

 

make them carry around some sort of beeping device. once 5 mins or so passes it starts beeping faster and or louder unless they move