TM Mk46 Mod.0

[Immortal]

I think it looks awesome but pricey for an AEG with a rumblepack. I'd consider one but I have a G&P Ranger M249. Whilst it doesn't have recoil, which is a bummer, I love it. One day it'll be the donor for an HPA build when I finally take that step. Be interesting to see how people field it but it'll be a rare RIF to see on a skirmish fa sure.

[Davegolf]

🤣 rumblepack! I'm sure you have to be a certain age to know what one of those is these days!!!

[RossF]

13 hours ago, Immortal said:

I think it looks awesome but pricey for an AEG with a rumblepack. I'd consider one but I have a G&P Ranger M249. Whilst it doesn't have recoil, which is a bummer, I love it. One day it'll be the donor for an HPA build when I finally take that step. Be interesting to see how people field it but it'll be a rare RIF to see on a skirmish fa sure.

haha, rumblepack! Don't forget how much shit Sony got when they launched the PS3 dualshock with no rumbling anywhere to be felt. People love the rumble... but £600 extra for it on an M249... 🤔

[BibbsOnTour]

2 hours ago, RossF said:

haha, rumblepack! Don't forget how much shit Sony got when they launched the PS3 dualshock with no rumbling anywhere to be felt. People love the rumble... but £600 extra for it on an M249... 🤔

pre-teen me loved the rumble

[Cr0-Magnon]

19 hours ago, Wo1f said:

I just wish that when I picked it up I had that same faith I do with the MWS that if I drop it, it’s not going to break. 

 

My NGRS SCAR L jumped off the roof of my car when I slammed the door and other than the stock button breaking, it seems fine. 

[Wo1f]

34 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

 

My NGRS SCAR L jumped off the roof of my car when I slammed the door and other than the stock button breaking, it seems fine. 

As i said, it’s the M4/416 that has receiver issues. The scar is solid but it’s plastics aren’t the nicest. 

[PureSilver]

37 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

As i said, it’s the M4/416 that has receiver issues. The scar is solid but it’s plastics aren’t the nicest. 

 

I think it would be more accurate to describe TM's plastics as "inadequate for a £500+ gun". It's crazy that they still think ABS is acceptable on guns this expensive, especially when an $80 WE is all GFP. It's particularly bad on the SCARs and G36 NGRSs because those are almost entirely plastic on the outside and it is extremely difficult or completely impossible to replace it.

 

This is kind of the issue I'll have with the Mk.46, too. I know they spent a ton of money on it and I don't think the price is unreasonable, but I'm not paying £1,100+ for an aluminium gun when it should be made of steel. Especially not when G&P can make a steel one for literally half the price, and very especially not when it should be possible to hack together some kind of recoil for the G&P with the £550 left over. It's the same issue with the NGRS AKs: I don't think the price is unreasonable, but I'm not paying £500+ for an aluminium gun when I will shortly be able to get a steel LCT with similar recoil for 75% of the price.

[Skara]

10 hours ago, PureSilver said:

 

I think it would be more accurate to describe TM's plastics as "inadequate for a £500+ gun". It's crazy that they still think ABS is acceptable on guns this expensive, especially when an $80 WE is all GFP. It's particularly bad on the SCARs and G36 NGRSs because those are almost entirely plastic on the outside and it is extremely difficult or completely impossible to replace it.

 

This is kind of the issue I'll have with the Mk.46, too. I know they spent a ton of money on it and I don't think the price is unreasonable, but I'm not paying £1,100+ for an aluminium gun when it should be made of steel. Especially not when G&P can make a steel one for literally half the price, and very especially not when it should be possible to hack together some kind of recoil for the G&P with the £550 left over. It's the same issue with the NGRS AKs: I don't think the price is unreasonable, but I'm not paying £500+ for an aluminium gun when I will shortly be able to get a steel LCT with similar recoil for 75% of the price.

I am pretty sure it's because of Japan's regulation on firearms.

 

Btw with those £550 you could buy a whole NGRS gearbox and fit it in a G&P steel body best of both worlds I guess 

[jcheeseright]

"Systema is just an ICS"

 

Err, no. Completely different design. 

[clumpyedge]

Not going to lie, I'll probably get one.....

[RossF]

2 hours ago, clumpyedge said:

Not going to lie, I'll probably get one.....

 

If I touch one and I tingle, I will do the same.

 

Pre-requisites for tingling: solid, good quality metal body, decent kick, doesn’t sound like a sewing machine. So let’s see!

[clumpyedge]

37 minutes ago, RossF said:

 

If I touch one and I tingle, I will do the same.

 

Pre-requisites for tingling: solid, good quality metal body, decent kick, doesn’t sound like a sewing machine. So let’s see!

 

I'm obviously more easily pleased than yourself. Having used and loved the g&p mk46 for years it'll be nice to use another reliable platform with a mag that doesn't resemble a tombstone 

[Wo1f]

8 hours ago, jcheeseright said:

"Systema is just an ICS"

 

Err, no. Completely different design. 

You’re right. ICS is is a far more reliable design. What I mean is that it’s ‘feature’ is a split gearbox. There’s no recoil or anything fancy about it. People just delude themselves because they have to justify the cost. 

[jcheeseright]

Cycle completion, instant trigger response through precocking, stop on empty, 1:1 dimensions, completely different hop design, planetary gearbox....

 

If you've got the money, they're very much worth it.  If you don't, they're not. 

[Lozart]

9 hours ago, jcheeseright said:

If you've got the money, they're very much worth it.  If you don't, they're not. 

 

This. For everything in life, ever.

[PureSilver]

On 03/10/2019 at 01:31, Skara said:

I am pretty sure it's because of Japan's regulation on firearms.

 

Btw with those £550 you could buy a whole NGRS gearbox and fit it in a G&P steel body best of both worlds I guess

 

From what I can recall, the ferrous metals rules only apply to handguns - Recoil Shocks have metal bodies and there's apparently a roaring trade in WE handguns in Japan. Japanese manufacturers in general have been appallingly slow to update their materials, although we're starting to see things like factory-applied CeraKote finishes on TM GBBRs.

 

I reckon a custom EBB gearbox of some sort with a heavy recoil weight (maybe based around the LCT steel piston) in a DX G&P M249 would definitely be the best of both worlds.

 

On 04/10/2019 at 00:23, jcheeseright said:

Cycle completion, instant trigger response through precocking, stop on empty, 1:1 dimensions, completely different hop design, planetary gearbox....

 

Recoil Shocks with a £100 FCU (that is light years ahead of the PTW's) have all of those features, except 1:1 construction, that are unambiguously advantageous. Plus they have recoil, and are available in a variety of shapes at half the cost or less. An ASG Scorpion EVO has cycle completion, 1:1 construction (far more realistic materials than the PTW's, too), stop-on-empty and bolt lock/release and a different hop-up and those are £300. The £1k plus you spend on a PTW also gets you a design that hasn't advanced noticeably since the early 2000s, questionable factory electronics, unexceptional materials and eye-wateringly expensive upgrades, the latter exacerbated by it being seemingly common to spend hundreds of pounds more immediately after purchase getting the gun set up by a professional.

 

PTWs were leagues ahead when they were the only ones with those features, but the beginning of the end for that dominance was the release of the SOPMOD more than 10 years ago now. The intervening 10 years gave us a further 26 (soon to be 27) NGRSs, ERGs, other more realistic AEGs (e.g. the equally flawed DAS), and a wide range of far more reliable and realistic GBBRs. I'm far from an expert, but I believe in the last decade Systema's only major innovation was a PTW with much worse recoil than an NGRS and battery magazines. For this you were expected to cough up $2,400 for the gun and $145 per magazine...

 

I'm not begrudging anybody their choice of gun and nobody has to justify their choices to anybody else. That doesn't mean that in the age of the Recoil Shock and modern GBBR the PTW isn't an increasingly obsolete platform.

[jcheeseright]

10 hours ago, PureSilver said:

 

From what I can recall, the ferrous metals rules only apply to handguns - Recoil Shocks have metal bodies and there's apparently a roaring trade in WE handguns in Japan. Japanese manufacturers in general have been appallingly slow to update their materials, although we're starting to see things like factory-applied CeraKote finishes on TM GBBRs.

 

I reckon a custom EBB gearbox of some sort with a heavy recoil weight (maybe based around the LCT steel piston) in a DX G&P M249 would definitely be the best of both worlds.

 

 

Recoil Shocks with a £100 FCU (that is light years ahead of the PTW's) have all of those features, except 1:1 construction, that are unambiguously advantageous. Plus they have recoil, and are available in a variety of shapes at half the cost or less. An ASG Scorpion EVO has cycle completion, 1:1 construction (far more realistic materials than the PTW's, too), stop-on-empty and bolt lock/release and a different hop-up and those are £300. The £1k plus you spend on a PTW also gets you a design that hasn't advanced noticeably since the early 2000s, questionable factory electronics, unexceptional materials and eye-wateringly expensive upgrades, the latter exacerbated by it being seemingly common to spend hundreds of pounds more immediately after purchase getting the gun set up by a professional.

 

PTWs were leagues ahead when they were the only ones with those features, but the beginning of the end for that dominance was the release of the SOPMOD more than 10 years ago now. The intervening 10 years gave us a further 26 (soon to be 27) NGRSs, ERGs, other more realistic AEGs (e.g. the equally flawed DAS), and a wide range of far more reliable and realistic GBBRs. I'm far from an expert, but I believe in the last decade Systema's only major innovation was a PTW with much worse recoil than an NGRS and battery magazines. For this you were expected to cough up $2,400 for the gun and $145 per magazine...

 

I'm not begrudging anybody their choice of gun and nobody has to justify their choices to anybody else. That doesn't mean that in the age of the Recoil Shock and modern GBBR the PTW isn't an increasingly obsolete platform.

 

Totally agree, there's a reason I sold my PTW and went back to a recoil shock gun.  

 

What I was disagreeing with was the suggestion that the PTW was basically just an expensive ICS, which really isn't true at all.  So very very far from the truth. 

[joshcowin]

It looks like a lovely bit of kit but I don’t think I could justify spending that much on it £800-900 fair enough but not that much. Especially when you start upgrading it like the rest of the tm NGRS series it’s going to be a £1800 gun

[clumpyedge]

14 hours ago, joshcowin said:

It looks like a lovely bit of kit but I don’t think I could justify spending that much on it £800-900 fair enough but not that much. Especially when you start upgrading it like the rest of the tm NGRS series it’s going to be a £1800 gun

 

How do you know you'll have to "upgrade it" I'd say at most a spring change to bring it up to UK levels (not really an upgrade) and that's about it. Same with all Marui guns, nothing needs "upgrading" until things start to wear and you need to change them. Everything else prior to the need to change is purely out of want and nothing more. Anyone that says you HAVE to upgrade Marui rifles to have them playable is simply wrong.

[Lozart]

[PureSilver]

On 09/10/2019 at 07:21, clumpyedge said:

How do you know you'll have to "upgrade it" I'd say at most a spring change to bring it up to UK levels (not really an upgrade) and that's about it.

 

If this is like other Recoil Shocks it has plastic bushings. Those are totally unacceptable on any AEG, let alone premium ones like NGRSs, but they're even less appropriate on a support gun which will be firing 10,000rds daily rather than annually. Have a look at what support gunners have to do to keep their guns running for a thousand rounds an hour.

 

TM have never made a support gun before. Either a lot of things about this are going to be different from their regular guns, or it's going to need a lot of work to keep it working.

[clumpyedge]

1 hour ago, PureSilver said:

 

If this is like other Recoil Shocks it has plastic bushings. Those are totally unacceptable on any AEG, let alone premium ones like NGRSs, but they're even less appropriate on a support gun which will be firing 10,000rds daily rather than annually. Have a look at what support gunners have to do to keep their guns running for a thousand rounds an hour.

 

TM have never made a support gun before. Either a lot of things about this are going to be different from their regular guns, or it's going to need a lot of work to keep it working.

 

Who the hell fires 10,000 daily? I had a g&p mk46 for years and had to do very little in the way of upkeep.

 

They hadn't made recoils at one point but again you don't have to upgrade/replace anything until it wears or breaks. The one I had before my current one went a good few years before needing anything done.

[jcheeseright]

I have never seen a plastic bushing fail.  I have seen MANY MANY cracked metal bushings. 

[PureSilver]

5 hours ago, clumpyedge said:

Who the hell fires 10,000 daily?

 

Americans, apparently. aardrummer's "Support Gunner's Bible" (if you can find it anywhere, it's been years since I've seen it online) goes into eye-watering detail about what's required to keep up very high volumes of fire for long periods of time. A lot of the things Recoil Shocks have - zinc gears, plastic pistons, plastic bushings - are just not suitable for that kind of abuse. Your G&P likely shipped with steel gears, a part-steel piston and steel bushings or bearings (it varied between production runs), and even with those the V2 gearbox was still considered very inferior to the CA-style M249-specific 'box for heavy-duty use.

 

5 hours ago, clumpyedge said:

you don't have to upgrade/replace anything until it wears or breaks.

 

This just doesn't hold up.

1. TM make mistakes just like everybody else, and there are guns that come out of the box either already malfunctioning or doomed to do so very shortly. Non-G-Spec VSR-10s were (are?) notorious for hooking right, Mk.23 magazines bleed gas and Five-seveN catches erode every time you put a magazine in. There absolutely are NGRS that arrived fatally flawed: AK-74MNs were so chronically unreliable Marui literally stopped making them for several years.
2. There are a number of TM guns where "just wait until it breaks" is bad advice. Preventative work will significantly extend the life of Glocks (epoxy pot the front frame post, otherwise get ready to buy a new frame), Five-seveNs (secure the hop-up unit or it will destroy the outer barrel, secure the BBU or it will destroy the slide) and other models besides. This absolutely does apply to NGRS: just by way of example, if you don't loctite (or preferably replace) the castle nut on AR-pattern Recoil Shocks they can work free and then eat the buffer tube threads.
3. Saying you don't have to upgrade or replace until something breaks is true but also totally meaningless; on that basis literally anything from anyone that fires out of the box is good to go until it isn't. Yes, a gun will continue to function until one of those things happens, but that doesn't mean it's functioning well. Take the QD battery system which afflicts almost all AR-pattern Recoil Shocks. You would have to be absolutely certifiable to pay £39.00 (or more - Wolf want a scarcely believable £52.99) per battery for obsolete and low-capacity 1,300mAh 8.4V NiMHs. You would also have to endure years of lacklustre performance and semi-auto lockups at low voltages, and wear out numerous costly batteries, while you waited for something in the harness to wear or break to justify "upgrading" to modern batteries.

To bring this back to the Mk.46, my point is that noting that zinc gears, plastic pistons and plastic bushings are not a recipe for long-lived support guns - especially not recoil support guns - isn't hating on TM, it's just simple common sense. If people actually use these as support weapons, we're going to see either TM finally adopting things everybody else adopted decades ago (e.g. steel gears, steel-tooth pistons and steel bushings) or a lot of broken guns.

[clumpyedge]

8 hours ago, PureSilver said:

 

Americans, apparently. aardrummer's "Support Gunner's Bible" (if you can find it anywhere, it's been years since I've seen it online) goes into eye-watering detail about what's required to keep up very high volumes of fire for long periods of time. A lot of the things Recoil Shocks have - zinc gears, plastic pistons, plastic bushings - are just not suitable for that kind of abuse. Your G&P likely shipped with steel gears, a part-steel piston and steel bushings or bearings (it varied between production runs), and even with those the V2 gearbox was still considered very inferior to the CA-style M249-specific 'box for heavy-duty use.

 

 

This just doesn't hold up.

1. TM make mistakes just like everybody else, and there are guns that come out of the box either already malfunctioning or doomed to do so very shortly. Non-G-Spec VSR-10s were (are?) notorious for hooking right, Mk.23 magazines bleed gas and Five-seveN catches erode every time you put a magazine in. There absolutely are NGRS that arrived fatally flawed: AK-74MNs were so chronically unreliable Marui literally stopped making them for several years.
2. There are a number of TM guns where "just wait until it breaks" is bad advice. Preventative work will significantly extend the life of Glocks (epoxy pot the front frame post, otherwise get ready to buy a new frame), Five-seveNs (secure the hop-up unit or it will destroy the outer barrel, secure the BBU or it will destroy the slide) and other models besides. This absolutely does apply to NGRS: just by way of example, if you don't loctite (or preferably replace) the castle nut on AR-pattern Recoil Shocks they can work free and then eat the buffer tube threads.
3. Saying you don't have to upgrade or replace until something breaks is true but also totally meaningless; on that basis literally anything from anyone that fires out of the box is good to go until it isn't. Yes, a gun will continue to function until one of those things happens, but that doesn't mean it's functioning well. Take the QD battery system which afflicts almost all AR-pattern Recoil Shocks. You would have to be absolutely certifiable to pay £39.00 (or more - Wolf want a scarcely believable £52.99) per battery for obsolete and low-capacity 1,300mAh 8.4V NiMHs. You would also have to endure years of lacklustre performance and semi-auto lockups at low voltages, and wear out numerous costly batteries, while you waited for something in the harness to wear or break to justify "upgrading" to modern batteries.

To bring this back to the Mk.46, my point is that noting that zinc gears, plastic pistons and plastic bushings are not a recipe for long-lived support guns - especially not recoil support guns - isn't hating on TM, it's just simple common sense. If people actually use these as support weapons, we're going to see either TM finally adopting things everybody else adopted decades ago (e.g. steel gears, steel-tooth pistons and steel bushings) or a lot of broken guns.

 

Ok mate 🤙