Joules or FPS?

[shadowfacex]

I’m working through a problem with which method of measuring weapon limits on PlayAirsoft. Some sites use FPS, some Joules, some both, and it’s a mess. I’m wondering what is the preference of the community? What do you find most informative for your purposes?

 

If you have any comments as to the practicality of each method, please do chime in below.

[concretesnail]

Joules is more informative however I do understand the logistics of sites wanting to chrono with .2s

 

As far as publishing a sites rule set I'd publish it as the site does as that is how it would be tested on site.

 

[Impulse]

Joules. Hands down, no contest. I'm pretty sure I could chrono my HPA guns on .2s, then watch the joule creep as I use the proper weights I like. I imagine my VSR would probably be closer to 3J if I chronoed to 500fps on .2s and then swapped out to .48s that it needs to perform to its best. I might try this and chrono at some point, just to see what the results would be.

 

At the end of the day, the energy is what impacts and hurts. FPS by itself is meaningless.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Impulse

[Stratton Oakmont]

I’m sure rogerborg will have your answer along soon.

[Rogerborg]

Joules, every time. It's not the 1990s, and nobody (apart from indoor CQB) is using 0.2g any more.

 

I've heard the argument that fps is easier to understand because it's one big round number, but that's self-delusional reactionary geezerism.

 

Sure, saying "350fps" is simple, but it's not helpful when it's not going to apply to the majority of players, and they need to translate into Joules, then back to fps for their BB weight.

 

Even worse is sites saying "Oh, everybody knows what we mean", when that's demonstrably not the case.  I've seen multiple people on Failbook saying "Yeah, I'm shooting .32g at 330, that's fine, right?  Under 350, yeah?"

 

Anyone who has a chrono at home can set it to Joules and their BB weight, end of argument.  Anyone who doesn't, well, they don't matter to the argument, because what are they going to do with the information?

 

Look at retailer clamed fps?  Those are (at best) results for one example, not the one that you'll receive, and when sites start to specify in Joules, and chrono with site 0.3g+ BBs, then retailers will eventually follow along.

 

</rant>

[Groot]

It really doesn't matter to me.

The gun is either site legal or it's not. People are honest, or they are not.

The easiest way is for a site owner is force the person to use site BBs to chrono and measure the output. To get a rough idea of hot guns and potential players to mark.

Or do what most do and have an fps chart based on the weight of bbs they are "told" are in the mag.
A morning chrono needs to be quick and with as little faffing as possible. In "yeah ok" taggem and send them down the line. 

If a sniper is running 500fps on .2s. You know its going to be over, when they put anything else in it and no one runs snipers on .2s

AEG's are a little harder to predict as some people for unexplained reasons still run lite ammo. 

Joules are nice for nerds. In the grand scheme of running a site; People can cheat the chrono every day of the week, if they want to. Lying about ammo weights, running a cold gas mag, turning the hop right up or changing out a spring. 
 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Groot

[Adolf Hamster]

they're both the same thing, well sort of....

 

feet per second on its own is a velocity measurement, no different to meters per second, miles per hour, furlongs per week, parsecs per year etc

 

however when applied to airsoft it's not on it's own, it's always feet per second using a 0.2g bb, that second part turns it into a unit of energy, same as joules, kilowatt hours, foot pounds etc

 

the reason we describe it this way is because that's how it's measured (a chronograph doesn't know what size/weight the projectile is, only how fast it's moving), or at least how it used to be measured, and it's a convenient number to remember in the same weird way using km/h seems odd to us because we're used to mph when the reality is both are telling the same thing. we're just used to the speed limit being 60mph and can easily visualize how fast that is.

 

i don't know why feet per second is the velocity unit that ended up becoming standard, seems to be it's even used in notionally metric countries (i may be wrong on that admittedly they might use m/s), i'd guess it's a case of resolution. discerning between 328 and 329fps is easier said than between 99.97m/s (0.99948800156877J) and 100.28m/s (1.0055917309061J)

 

these days with folks using a plethora of ammo weights, and chronographs able to calculate joules on the fly it makes sense to be using joules. if a site can't be bothered reprogramming their chronograph for every player you can still just jot down the fps limit for the common ammo weights and tape it to the chrono, then you can still use the velocity measurement the chrono spits out (which will always be the raw measurement) and match it to the limit for whatever weight the player is using.

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Groot said:

A morning chrono needs to be quick and with as little faffing as possible. In "yeah ok" taggem and send them down the line.

 

If you're not going to do it thoroughly, with an assumption that everybody is trying to avoid or cheat the chrono, then why bother at all?

 

I really mean this. If you assume that everybody is honest, then a chrono is only there so that we can self-check.

 

If you assume that there's even one problem person out there, then finding and catching them requires more than a cursory, easily skipped, and half hearted process.

 

I'd far, far rather that sites did a lot more in-game chronoing with their own 0.3g+ BBs, punted guns back to the safe zone if they're a little over, and players off the site if they're well over.  Anything else is just theatre.

 

</rant number two>

[Adolf Hamster]

33 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

If you're not going to do it thoroughly, with an assumption that everybody is trying to avoid or cheat the chrono, then why bother at all?

 

i guess the main thing is not to catch the cheaters, as there's a plethora of ways for them to get around a morning spot check, but to catch the honest accidents.

 

it's why i don't see a problem with merely asking folk what ammo weight they're running, better to make the cheaters have to straight up lie so that when the follow up spot checks catch them you can go straight to gulag, do not pass go, do not collect 200 youtube views.

 

of course this is reliant on sites actually following up on vaguely mumbled threats of in-game chrono'ing, and actually kicking players off the field for rule violations. which is something i'll believe when i see it.......

[Groot]

18 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

If you're not going to do it thoroughly, with an assumption that everybody is trying to avoid or cheat the chrono, then why bother at all?

 

I really mean this. If you assume that everybody is honest, then a chrono is only there so that we can self-check.

 

If you assume that there's even one problem person out there, then finding and catching them requires more than a cursory, easily skipped, and half hearted process.

 

I'd far, far rather that sites did a lot more in-game chronoing with their own 0.3g+ BBs, punted guns back to the safe zone if they're a little over, and players off the site if they're well over.  Anything else is just theatre.

 

</rant number two>

 

The whole thing comes down to honesty though doesn't it.

The best a site can do is sniff out any really hot guns that the owner is not aware of by throwing them through a chrono with FPS or Joules set, forcing them to use the 0.2's provided is cheap and its a historically understood measurement for noobs. Less arguments and ticks the insurance requirements. Done

Having to reset the chrono each time for a new weight, to get an accurate joule reading, is pointless. 

In game chronoing is fine but thats a little different to the morning base line chrono. The in game is to make sure that people are honest and to put the fear of being caught into cheats. 

[Adolf Hamster]

 

2 minutes ago, Groot said:

Having to reset the chrono each time for a new weight, to get an accurate joule reading, is pointless. 

 

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

if a site can't be bothered reprogramming their chronograph for every player you can still just jot down the fps limit for the common ammo weights and tape it to the chrono, then you can still use the velocity measurement the chrono spits out (which will always be the raw measurement) and match it to the limit for whatever weight the player is using.

 

[Impulse]

51 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

If you're not going to do it thoroughly, with an assumption that everybody is trying to avoid or cheat the chrono, then why bother at all?

 

I really mean this. If you assume that everybody is honest, then a chrono is only there so that we can self-check.

 

When I first started, this is actually how it was. Chrono was just to self-check and there was a level of trust. However, that was also when an absolutely packed game day at my local site was 30 people. I agree, especially with the social media and content culture of today, that you should do it thoroughly. Owning a chrono myself, I can say it's super easy to change the weight on the fly and takes seconds. The issue is that people could rock up and say "oh, I'm using .32s" when they're actually using .48s, but this is a risk that has to be taken, as if we all chrono'd on one weight, then people who do actually use heavier ammo would be over, like me and my .48s.

 

I don't think there's a way to completely get rid of people cheating chrono outside of nobody owning their own guns or silly levels of regulation, which I'm pretty sure none of us want. Airsoft is, at the end of the day, a game of honour.

[Rogerborg]

Site BBs in your mag, 0.3g or higher - I'd actually say 0.4g+ these days.  If a site can't afford that, they've got bigger problems.

 

And to veer dangerously close to getting back on topic, using a single weight of site BBs also allows dinosaurs to keep thinking in fps, as they'll only have three numbers to deal with: AEG, DMR, sniper.

 

It just shouldn't be 0.2g BBs, and 350 / 400-something / 500, for the obvious reason that these numbers and energy levels won't represent what will actually be produced on the field when everyone switches to 0.28g - 0.46g BBs.

 

There are exceptions, like CQB sites which only allow up to (e.g.) 0.25g, when the Joule creep over 0.2g isn't likely to be massive.  But for woodland, in general, quoting in 0.2g fps figures is risibly old fashioned.

 

Because at the end of the day (well, at the start of it), they don't really mean (e.g.) 350fps, they mean (e.g.) 1.13J, and all of their numbers for other BB masses are derived by converting 350fps x 0.2g to Joules, and then back again.  So why not skip the pointless first step, and just specify and think in terms of Joules in the first place?

[Stratton Oakmont]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

Site BBs in your mag, 0.3g or higher - I'd actually say 0.4g+ these days.  If a site can't afford that, they've got bigger problems.

 

And to veer dangerously close to getting back on topic, using a single weight of site BBs also allows dinosaurs to keep thinking in fps, as they'll only have three numbers to deal with: AEG, DMR, sniper.

 

It just shouldn't be 0.2g BBs, and 350 / 400-something / 500, for the obvious reason that these numbers and energy levels won't represent what will actually be produced on the field when everyone switches to 0.28g - 0.46g BBs.

 

There are exceptions, like CQB sites which only allow up to (e.g.) 0.25g, when the Joule creep over 0.2g isn't likely to be massive.  But for woodland, in general, quoting in 0.2g fps figures is risibly old fashioned.

 

Because at the end of the day (well, at the start of it), they don't really mean (e.g.) 350fps, they mean (e.g.) 1.13J, and all of their numbers for other BB masses are derived by converting 350fps x 0.2g to Joules, and then back again.  So why not skip the pointless first step, and just specify and think in terms of Joules in the first place?

[Druid799]

I understand both sides of the argument but I’m still in the ‘old’ FPS camp you can argue up and down as much as you like about which is more accurate but when you get down to it as far as I’m concerned apart from the new players with their snot green what ever from BBGUNZ’S IS BESTEST.COM who’s only knowledge of ‘joules’ Is some chavette called Julie he tried to finger in the bus stop after school then the morning pre-game chrono check is a pointless exercise used simply to test the integrity of the players attending that site , there’s a 100 and 1 ways to cheat the site limits if you feel you need to , it’s just a test for you to ask your self “are you going to be an honest player ? Or are you going to be a c*nt ?” For me it’s simple as that really .

[John_W]

I miss the old days of the "coke can chrono" 😉

[Rogerborg]

22 hours ago, Druid799 said:

which is more accurate 

 

It's not about accuracy, or even about cheating the chrono, it's about it being the most useful number given the vast range of BB weights being used by players.

 

Simply put, if a site says "350fps", then you'll have to convert to Joules and then back to the fps for whatever weirdo weight of BBs that you're using.  Almost nobody (in woodland) will be chronoing with an actual 350fps limit, and no (woodland) site should be using 0.2g BBs at the chrono.

 

So let's just skip that first step, and tell us the Joules number.

[Shamal]

7 hours ago, John_W said:

I miss the old days of the "coke can chrono" 😉

When I was younger and using pellet guns and air rifles,it was measured by how many pages of a telephone ☎️ directory or littlewoods catalogue you could get through lol.

I remember mam wasn't best pleased when the last two numbers of a dressmaker she wanted to call  had a .22 hole through them! Lol

 

Regards 

[AlphaBear]

I get both sides of the argument here and I understand why some sites just use fps and ask the player what BB weight they are using. One of my sites does this and then they just compare the fps speed with the bb weight. If you have 100 players checking in then the last thing you want is the chrono time to take forever. Our sport relies on honesty but let's face it you will get those players who will inevitably tell porkies coz they consider themselves entitled. At least I know I'm being honest and that's what matters.    

[Druid799]

4 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

It's not about accuracy, or even about cheating the chrono, it's about it being the most useful number given the vast range of BB weights being used by players.

 

Simply put, if a site says "350fps", then you'll have to convert to Joules and then back to the fps for whatever weirdo weight of BBs that you're using.  Almost nobody (in woodland) will be chronoing with an actual 350fps limit, and no (woodland) site should be using 0.2g BBs at the chrono.

 

So let's just skip that first step, and tell us the Joules number.

Personally I’ve never played at a site that’s used joules . All the sites I’ve been too have either used their own .2 ammo or asked what weight your using chrono’ed it then looked it up on a conversation chart , so if it’s below XYZ with ABC weight ammo you can use it , if it’s not you can’t . May be a bit arbitrary but I(and most players I’ve spoken too about the subject)think it’s a good benchmark to work from if you don’t want the entire morning spent at the chrono station ? 

[shadowfacex]

I’m trying to stay as objective as possible, so I’ll add context here for reference.

 

I’ve only dealt with FPS when it comes to checking for compliance with airsoft organisers and site limits, however what I’ve noticed is that every RIF that I’ve ever owned (and it’s most likely an industry standard) had its energy output measured and declared solely in Joules, which makes it for a super handy reference.

 

For example, my CO² ASG CZ P-09 came from factory with 1.3J of energy output. You can probably tell at a glance whether it was or it was not hot for most sites.

 

I will experiment with Joules at PlayAirsoft and see how it fares in real life. If you happen to see any info being incorrect for a given site, I have added a “report” link. This should help with correcting any outstanding issues.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by shadowfacex

[Rogerborg]

10 hours ago, Druid799 said:

All the sites I’ve been too have either used their own .2 ammo

 

Then (unless they're CQB with a 0.25g limit or so) they're wasting everybody's time by chronoing at all.  They're really chronoing bolt actions and HPA using 0.2g?

 

There's actually a potential legal issue there, given the possibility for guns to Joule creep over the 1.3J / 2.5J airsoft definitions, and become section 5 firearms, or air guns.

 

 

10 hours ago, Druid799 said:

or asked what weight your using chrono’ed it then looked it up on a conversation chart

 

To be clear, I have no problem with that.  Well, I mean, I have a problem with trusting players - again, that's just chrono theatre - but having a handy-dandy chart with weights and fps limits makes practical sense.

 

My issue is really about how sites specify limits.  When I see a site saying (e.g.) 1.2J AEG / 1.88J DMR / 2.32J bolt action, that's all I need to know to set up for that site by chronoing at home with the ammo weights that I'll be using.

 

When they say 360fps / 450fps / 500fps, I have to go through the pointless step of converting those numbers to Joules, for no good reason at all.

 

Worse, if they're thinking in terms of 0.2g, then it can lead to them using 0.2g for chronoing, with the aforementioned pointlessness and pitfalls.