Supporters Adolf Hamster Posted March 17, 2019 Supporters Share Posted March 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Tiercel said: As an example, in my ignorance I added a nice new tightbore extended barrel to my WE G19 running through a suppresor. The site I used to play at didnt chrono pistols so no big deal I thought. Then I went to the Mall, where they did chrono it. And it was running at 390fps on 0.2s with green gas. Whoops. 😦 Its now been sitting on my gun rack for months gathering dust as I havent got round to buying a new/original sized barrel for it and misplaced the original. yep, this is a case in point- you didn't even realise you were running hot. i made the same mistake although luckily i did think to chrono it before chucking the old barrel so i now have a long pistol barrel sitting around that i can't use. would have been worse if you'd been running heavier ammo as a longer barrel is more time for joule creep to take effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiercel Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said: yep, this is a case in point- you didn't even realise you were running hot. i made the same mistake although luckily i did think to chrono it before chucking the old barrel so i now have a long pistol barrel sitting around that i can't use. would have been worse if you'd been running heavier ammo as a longer barrel is more time for joule creep to take effect. I normally use .25s or .28s in my pistol depending on what I have available at the time 😅 the 390 is just what it chronod with the .2s the mall put in for you. Never played at a site that measures in joules yet so I have no idea what it would actually be doing in energy terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters ImTriggerHappy Posted March 17, 2019 Supporters Share Posted March 17, 2019 48 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said: you check the suppressor, if it's got a barrel extension in it/under it it'll almost certainly be hot. better than not checking at all...... Again how much time do you think chrono marshals have? There is no guarantee that players won't just remove them before chrono as I have said before. Honestly there is a reason why it is done that way. Try working chrono and then talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musica Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 my site doesn't allow anything over a 0.25g bb guess thats how they deal with creep. Indoor site so not like it's a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Adolf Hamster Posted March 17, 2019 Supporters Share Posted March 17, 2019 19 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said: Again how much time do you think chrono marshals have? There is no guarantee that players won't just remove them before chrono as I have said before. Honestly there is a reason why it is done that way. Try working chrono and then talk. There's never any guarantee, but as pointed out at least if your using player weights and keeping an eye out for certain types of guns then you'll catch out the honest folk who genuinely dont understand what they've done. If you dont have enough time to do it for a large group then the obvious follow up question is how many marshalls are there and how the hell do you hope to police any other aspect of airsoft cheating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiercel Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 32 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said: There is no guarantee that players won't just remove them before chrono as I have said before. Heading back to the safe zone and changing the inner barrel on a pistol post chrono would be a bit suspect though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Adolf Hamster Posted March 17, 2019 Supporters Share Posted March 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Tiercel said: Heading back to the safe zone and changing the inner barrel on a pistol post chrono would be a bit suspect though He's referring to the type that has the extension mounted to the suppressor. Easy to check if it's mounted and sure folk could put them on post chrono but that's no more difficult than switching guns midday, switching bolts in a sniper rifle or twiddling the regulator on an hpa, which is why the follow up of keeping the chrono on you and random spot checks in the field is also important. Sure cheaters gonna cheat, but the whole .2's chrono'ing thing can accidentally let even honest folk end up running hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters ImTriggerHappy Posted March 17, 2019 Supporters Share Posted March 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tiercel said: Heading back to the safe zone and changing the inner barrel on a pistol post chrono would be a bit suspect though It is more the suppressors with an internal barrel that are the issue. Do know of a guy who did try and swap out his pistol innards after chrono and run power up gas. 15 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said: There's never any guarantee, but as pointed out at least if your using player weights and keeping an eye out for certain types of guns then you'll catch out the honest folk who genuinely dont understand what they've done. If you dont have enough time to do it for a large group then the obvious follow up question is how many marshalls are there and how the hell do you hope to police any other aspect of airsoft cheating? Jesus christ buddy you don't a clue. Been in on more discussions with people who actually know what it is like to run a chrono than I care to remember and guess what everyone agrees current method is best. A site like the mall used to run 10+ marshals and you would have 4 or 5 on chrono for a 100 players and no way on earth would that be feasible. Players would just lie about weight remove suppressors and run low power gas if they wanted to cheat. The best method is as it is done single weight so standard test. Let it go and get the fact your idea while well meaning is not really workable for any site that has a large-ish group of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiercel Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 Theyre quite uncommon arent they? Ive only seen that kind as the Angry gun powerup type for the MP9/MP7. Never seen one for a pistol. That being said, having a suppressor on a pistol looks really cool, but every time Ive used one (inner barrel or not) its been totally impractical and the extra weight on the outer barrel causes cycling issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Adolf Hamster Posted March 17, 2019 Supporters Share Posted March 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said: Jesus christ buddy you don't a clue. Been in on more discussions with people who actually know what it is like to run a chrono than I care to remember and guess what everyone agrees current method is best. A site like the mall used to run 10+ marshals and you would have 4 or 5 on chrono for a 100 players and no way on earth would that be feasible. Players would just lie about weight remove suppressors and run low power gas if they wanted to cheat. The best method is as it is done single weight so standard test. Let it go and get the fact your idea while well meaning is not really workable for any site that has a large-ish group of players. Like i said originally- cant be arsed doing it properly. Asking for bb weights and chrono'ing on energy will catch the honest folk who dont understand physics, as you say cheaters gonna cheat so at least use the method that requires people to be dishonest and follow up by catching people in the field. Like i said in my original point- i'd rather get smacked by a gun running 329fps on .2's than one that runs 320fps on .2's but 290 on .4's. 4 minutes ago, Tiercel said: Theyre quite uncommon arent they? Ive only seen that kind as the Angry gun powerup type for the MP9/MP7. Never seen one for a pistol. That being said, having a suppressor on a pistol looks really cool, but every time Ive used one (inner barrel or not) its been totally impractical and the extra weight on the outer barrel causes cycling issues. Some versions of the mk23 and the we makarov comes with one, the makarov one is a seperate barrel extension though so it's pretty visible when you pull it off. In any of the cases of a barrel extension they tend to push them way over any reasonable limit although accuracy tends to go out the window. Not saying they're all bad, on an aeg or without a barrel extension they can look cool and for some gun types even make a big difference to noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 @Adolf Hamster @Immortal Cheers guys I’ve seen wide variations (in Paintball), and would much prefer to check a pistol then assume it’s under the limit, particularly if 99% of them are expected to be under the limit - that’s the fastest way through chrono with instant passes .... and as sites ought to have insurance in place, I very much doubt that risk assessments state that sites will assume green gas pistols are under powered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters ImTriggerHappy Posted March 17, 2019 Supporters Share Posted March 17, 2019 50 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said: Like i said originally- cant be arsed doing it properly. Asking for bb weights and chrono'ing on energy will catch the honest folk who dont understand physics, as you say cheaters gonna cheat so at least use the method that requires people to be dishonest and follow up by catching people in the field. Er nope no one sound anything about can't be arsed said not feasible, don't take what is said and try and twist it. Sites have tried it and have found it takes too long and didn't do fuck all to make anything better. This is why the few who tried reverted back to doing it the tried and tested way. All this shit went on a few years back so your opinions are nothing new but then I suppose you know more than all the site managers and marshals? 49 minutes ago, Tommikka said: @Adolf Hamster @Immortal Cheers guys I’ve seen wide variations (in Paintball), and would much prefer to check a pistol then assume it’s under the limit, particularly if 99% of them are expected to be under the limit - that’s the fastest way through chrono with instant passes .... and as sites ought to have insurance in place, I very much doubt that risk assessments state that sites will assume green gas pistols are under powered All guns should be checked and site insurances would state that. Any site not doing it is just negligent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Druid799 Posted March 18, 2019 Supporters Share Posted March 18, 2019 Hard as it is 😁 totally agree with trigger on this one , chrono should only use the simplest system possible , once you start introducing any deviation from this it’ll all go to rat shit ! The big spanner in the works if you try anything different is the players plain and simple , you’ll have smart arse ones gobbing off about all the variants mentioned, you’ll have noobs asking boneheaded questions because they’ve heard some gobshite trying to be clever about ‘Joule creep’ or god knows what else and before you know it the warm up game is taking place at bloody midday ! 🤦♂️🤬 chrono is most definitely one occasion were K.I.S.S. Should be applied 100% . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 10 hours ago, Druid799 said: Moral of the story children ? give yourself a good margin for error , you get your gun set up to fireing at 349.99999999fps on your mates chrono your gonna get burned and it’ll end in tears ! I had one of these moments today... My gun chrono'd at 349.6 on a fresh mag. I knew it would before hand because I did my own chrono at home and it never goes above that number but I was too lazy to change it right away. I was a little too exuberant with my piston o-ring so I'm gonna have to change it back to what I had before, which chrono's at around 340. Think the new o-ring was causing me intermittent feeding issues too so it's no big deal. Piston came with 3 different o-rings. 1 is too loose but the other 2 are too tight it appears! Dunno what to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted March 18, 2019 Supporters Share Posted March 18, 2019 Sites should chrono with their own BBs, using the heaviest that they allow on site. And they should have a limit because as noted passim, anything above 0.45g is likely to be more metal or ceramic than plastic. That's simple enough to do, although I'm sure suggesting any changes to the 0.2g default will trigger someone and make them unhappy. If a site can't be bothered doing that, then chronoing is just Safety Theatre and might as well be voluntary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Samurai Posted March 18, 2019 Supporters Share Posted March 18, 2019 Chronoing an AEG with 0.45+ can result negative joule creep, so the ones using 0.2 or even 0.23-25 might be hot. And those are many more than ppl being hot with their heavy BBs when chronoing with light. 0.32 or 0.36 would be the middle ground, that's what I'm campaigning for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musica Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 I think we all know the only way to do it right is the bb weight they use in game with hop set how they play using joules not FPS. Tests need to be done with players bbs and site bbs to confirm readings are within 5-10% of each other. Spot checks should be more common and very random like have the station set up at the end of games and tap 3 or 4 players to report for testing. Punishment needs to be immediate ejection from the site for the day. At the end of the day it's too hard to prevent people cheating but a marshal could carry 3-5 pistol speed loaders marked with .20g .25g .30g .40g bbs ask the player what they are running shoot their bbs at their word take the readings shoot the sites bbs at that weight compare. My site has 0.25g limit but I wonder how they would test for someone using a 0.28g? scales aren't accurate enough so the miss match in FPS readings might be enough of a red flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albiscuit Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 12 hours ago, Druid799 said: Hard as it is 😁 totally agree with trigger on this one , chrono should only use the simplest system possible , once you start introducing any deviation from this it’ll all go to rat shit ! The big spanner in the works if you try anything different is the players plain and simple , you’ll have smart arse ones gobbing off about all the variants mentioned, you’ll have noobs asking boneheaded questions because they’ve heard some gobshite trying to be clever about ‘Joule creep’ or god knows what else and before you know it the warm up game is taking place at bloody midday ! 🤦♂️🤬 chrono is most definitely one occasion were K.I.S.S. Should be applied 100% . Agreed, as a player its a pain in the arse, but a necessity for sure. I get the variables even if I dont understand them, but never had an issue with chrono and except for the sites which dont chrono, or make it voluntary I cant say I have ever witnessed anything too serious or anyone kicking off due to a hot gun. Taking a reading on .2s as supplied by the site does seem the standard way and must be the most effective as thats what most places use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters ImTriggerHappy Posted March 18, 2019 Supporters Share Posted March 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Musica said: I think we all know the only way to do it right is the bb weight they use in game with hop set how they play using joules not FPS. Tests need to be done with players bbs and site bbs to confirm readings are within 5-10% of each other. Spot checks should be more common and very random like have the station set up at the end of games and tap 3 or 4 players to report for testing. Punishment needs to be immediate ejection from the site for the day. At the end of the day it's too hard to prevent people cheating but a marshal could carry 3-5 pistol speed loaders marked with .20g .25g .30g .40g bbs ask the player what they are running shoot their bbs at their word take the readings shoot the sites bbs at that weight compare. My site has 0.25g limit but I wonder how they would test for someone using a 0.28g? scales aren't accurate enough so the miss match in FPS readings might be enough of a red flag. And when chrono takes 3 hrs and first game is lunch time then players will be really happy🙄. The relatively small issue of joule creep is nothing compared to a queue of a hundred bored airsofters. Most guns the joule creep is a few fps. Never seen anything jump too much except for people who deliberately cheat. You really think players will enjoy getting pulled out of game to be chrono checked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musica Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 51 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said: And when chrono takes 3 hrs and first game is lunch time then players will be really happy🙄. The relatively small issue of joule creep is nothing compared to a queue of a hundred bored airsofters. Most guns the joule creep is a few fps. Never seen anything to jump much except for people who deliberately cheat. You really think players will enjoy getting pulled out of game to be chrono checked? I agree it would take a long time and I don't think it should be taken just like real life the criminals get smarter to outsmart the laws and barriers in the place to stop them. The mandatory crono is the best method to catch the people who don't know and aren't intentionally taking hot guns in but just got them and haven't a clue . The second reason it's useful is to prove the gun passed with known weight bbs so if later on they have no defence that they didn't know it was hot as they have made modifications since chrono. I think sites should say in the rules that any modifications done to the gun after the mandatory chrono means it needs re-tested and it won't be a defence if they are caught running hot. Personally I want tested so that I know the guns shooting me have been tested. I guess what we could think about is a way to find the arses who run hot quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasman Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 On 17/03/2019 at 14:57, ImTriggerHappy said: Unless you want to have a 3hr chrono line and lie detector test for when players declare their ammo then yes it is. Most sites have a maximum of an hour to chrono anywhere from 50 to 150 players so quick and simple works best. Lots of players talk about how easy things are with no clue on what it is really like. You try and herd a 100 airsofters through chrono. It amazes me no marshal has ever thrown in the towel and beat some dumb argumentative little fucker to death with his raider yet. I was trying to chrono players at the weekend and I found a lot of guns were hot so trying to explain why, when they reply well its under 350 that is supposed to be, on a .2 not a .32. You do loos the will to live! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted April 8, 2019 Supporters Share Posted April 8, 2019 On 05/04/2019 at 16:38, gasman said: I was trying to chrono players at the weekend and I found a lot of guns were hot so trying to explain why, when they reply well its under 350 that is supposed to be, on a .2 not a .32 Innocent ignorance, or getting caught at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Tackle Posted April 8, 2019 Moderators Share Posted April 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Rogerborg said: Innocent ignorance, or getting caught at it? my moneys on "getting caught at it", too many players seem to be intent on getting, what they perceive, to be some kind of advantage, however small, which to me is laughable, just get out & play ffs. I suppose it goes hand in hand with non hit taking etc etc, if I could find a site that could eradicate all the aspects of cheating (& give well organised gamedays), id never play anywhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted April 8, 2019 Supporters Share Posted April 8, 2019 Mmm, I don't want to judge unseen, but it's so easy for players to say "Me no understand Joules-per-squared-airsoft-metres-per-second rules," if they do get caught. When I'm King of Airsoft, they'll be lined up against a wall and shot with their own not-technically-airsoft-guns in the voonerables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Adolf Hamster Posted April 8, 2019 Supporters Share Posted April 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Rogerborg said: Mmm, I don't want to judge unseen, but it's so easy for players to say "Me no understand Joules-per-squared-airsoft-metres-per-second rules," if they do get caught. When I'm King of Airsoft, they'll be lined up against a wall and shot with their own not-technically-airsoft-guns in the voonerables. i'm 50/50 purely because so many folk do genuinely seem to have no clue how to physic although granted it's an easy excuse, alongside the "it's a TM it can't be hot", "green gas pistols aren't hot" etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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