Bullpups and no brains :D

[Iceni]

Hey!

I'm very new to airsoft. I've had 2 registered skirmishes and plan on having a 3rd very soon so I can get my UKARA. Like all things that are fun I've started to look at equipment. And It's led me on a strange path down what can only be described as a spiral of confusion!

I'll start with what I am. I'm a middle aged 30+ working person with some available funds but still opperating in a budget.

I got introduced to airsoft by a friend who I'd done a few computer favors for, He took me to a skirmish, Dressed me (in oversized camo), And slapped an M416 in my hands.

His expirience is quite vast. He's worked as an airsoft tech, Has good knowelege of gearboxes and rebuilds, And when he was working as a tech he was well known for knowing his stuff. I don't however want to leech from him, or get him to do the work in getting anything I get working well. I'm a hands on person with a technical mind, I'll learn as I go and watch countless video's and read strip down guides on the system I pick until I can do the work myself.

From my fist games with the M416 I noticed off the bat it wasn't the firearm for me. It is nose heavy, Hard to keep on point for extended periods without support, And most anoying to me it was difficult to get a confortable sling position with a single point. It was however very accurate and great at range with the sights been almost perfect (akog 1.5x red dot).So I started to look into other designs and built myself a set of criteria based on a fair bit of forum reading.

The criteria I came up with is as follows.

Longer than average barrel length.
Mid cap magazines.
2-3 point sling options.
Under £200 with modifications.
Scope and as many options included.


This led me to look at bullpups. And I've looked into L85's and AUG's so far. Both systems have merits and flaws. So I've decided to make a post regarding bullpups in general. I don't know enough about the systems to go any further, and what I have looked at is all begining to blur into company hype rather than in the field expirience. What is the difference in a Kryptek typhoon and the lesser model other than the paint and £50!

I have no set system, And what I want is something I can pick off targets with at decent range and good accuracy. I'm not a spray and pray kind of person, I'd rather dig in and wait. I don't want a sniper rifle, AEG snipers are limited at my local site (370fps) to the gas and spring's (500 fps). So I'd rather stick to 350fps and have the middle ground. Better than average range, no 20M restiction, fire rate isn't as important on full auto. Whist still having mobility, ease of use, and a weight that can be held on point in a kneel without needing support. (I'm asking for the world I think).


Anyway I've waffled on a lot. What I want to know is what bullpups would be a good place to start searching. I'm not going to mention what I have picked out at this point because It's not going to be the gun I end up with. All I ask is when you post you make an effort to explain the merits of the system and it's flaws. It's important to me to be able to evaluate things from an actual users perspective. Reviews other than 1min you tube video's would also be very welcome!

[Josh95]

Hey!

 

I'm very new to airsoft. I've had 2 registered skirmishes and plan on having a 3rd very soon so I can get my UKARA. Like all things that are fun I've started to look at equipment. And It's led me on a strange path down what can only be described as a spiral of confusion!

 

I'll start with what I am. I'm a middle aged 30+ working person with some available funds but still opperating in a budget.

 

I got introduced to airsoft by a friend who I'd done a few computer favors for, He took me to a skirmish, Dressed me (in oversized camo), And slapped an M416 in my hands.

 

His expirience is quite vast. He's worked as an airsoft tech, Has good knowelege of gearboxes and rebuilds, And when he was working as a tech he was well known for knowing his stuff. I don't however want to leech from him, or get him to do the work in getting anything I get working well. I'm a hands on person with a technical mind, I'll learn as I go and watch countless video's and read strip down guides on the system I pick until I can do the work myself.

 

From my fist games with the M416 I noticed off the bat it wasn't the firearm for me. It is nose heavy, Hard to keep on point for extended periods without support, And most anoying to me it was difficult to get a confortable sling position with a single point. It was however very accurate and great at range with the sights been almost perfect (akog 1.5x red dot).So I started to look into other designs and built myself a set of criteria based on a fair bit of forum reading.

 

The criteria I came up with is as follows.

 

Longer than average barrel length.

Mid cap magazines.

2-3 point sling options.

Under £200 with modifications.

Scope and as many options included.

 

 

This led me to look at bullpups. And I've looked into L85's and AUG's so far. Both systems have merits and flaws. So I've decided to make a post regarding bullpups in general. I don't know enough about the systems to go any further, and what I have looked at is all begining to blur into company hype rather than in the field expirience. What is the difference in a Kryptek typhoon and the lesser model other than the paint and £50!

 

I have no set system, And what I want is something I can pick off targets with at decent range and good accuracy. I'm not a spray and pray kind of person, I'd rather dig in and wait. I don't want a sniper rifle, AEG snipers are limited at my local site (370fps) to the gas and spring's (500 fps). So I'd rather stick to 350fps and have the middle ground. Better than average range, no 20M restiction, fire rate isn't as important on full auto. Whist still having mobility, ease of use, and a weight that can be held on point in a kneel without needing support. (I'm asking for the world I think).

 

 

Anyway I've waffled on a lot. What I want to know is what bullpups would be a good place to start searching. I'm not going to mention what I have picked out at this point because It's not going to be the gun I end up with. All I ask is when you post you make an effort to explain the merits of the system and it's flaws. It's important to me to be able to evaluate things from an actual users perspective. Reviews other than 1min you tube video's would also be very welcome!

 

 

If you onyl have £200. your best bet would probably be trying to find a secondhand ICS or G&G L85.theyre around £200 with some mags

[Baz JJ]

A sensible set of questions and you obviously have an analytical mind.

 

Unfortunately, I cant stand the Bullpup design and dont own any, so can't give you a review.

 

I do have a 416 though and am a little mystified by your weight/balance comment. Mine is quite well balanced and was quite manageable until I loaded it up with furniture. If you find a metal rifle like a 416/M4 heavy, have you looked at polymer based rifles ? either the plastic versions of real steel rifles like the M4 or replicas that are polymer in real life i.e. UMP

 

Unfortunately, there aren't that many bullpup designs to choose from in airsoft and your budget will make it even more restrictive.

 

The L85 is probably the most common and there have been a number of posts on here about the merits of the different models.

 

The Steyr is another and the Real Sword 97B is probably one of the best (and most expensive).

 

Good luck in your search.

[Adam3088]

There's someone selling a G&G F2000 on the zeroone forums for around that much, they can run midcaps but do require a slight modification to the magazine.

+Solidly built

+Long Barrel

+Good internally

+Can use 2 point sling, but will require you to fabricate the rear attachment (not difficult)

+Very easy to take apart

+Good battery space (can fit 2200mah 7.4 lipo)

+Excellent balance, center sits right above the trigger

 

-Quite a lot of proprietary internals

-Weird trigger system, really needs a mosfet - but simple to install on v6 gearbox

-Fairly weighty compared to an m4

-Not much you can do to it externally

-It's fat, like really chunky. Takes a bit of getting used to.

 

Think you'll struggle to get a good bullpup for £200 new, they tend to be relatively expensive.

[GingerBreadMan]

Bull pups seem to be reasonably expensive and at£200 you probably won't be able to get many mags with one. Have a look at jg. I believe they make a p90 and aug and are reasonably priced

[Bottledtorment]

APS UAR from using it a couple games and such is good and can take longer barrels if needed

[Baz JJ]

Tavor is another to look at.

[AK47frizzle]

There's still the TM famas lurking around if you don't mind the creaky plastic - oldest aeg to date but still performs well.

 

The tavor is another one but the ares ones have plastic gearboxes.

 

Jg aug is a decent option.

 

The P90 is another great light weight and short option.

 

There's also the APS UAR but honestly they thing is ugly as fuk.

 

And there are 2 more you might wanna consider but the're out of your reach atm (£300+)

 

G&G F2000 amd TM High Cycle AUG

 

The high cycle aug has a fine tuned gearbox which fires 25 rps with an 8.4v battery which is insane. You pretty much don't need to upgrade this gun if you get it.

[Iceni]

 

I do have a 416 though and am a little mystified by your weight/balance comment. Mine is quite well balanced and was quite manageable until I loaded it up with furniture.

 

Extras may well have been the problem with the M416. It's a full metal body, with the 4 sided rail system, Front grip, Flash light, long barrel (16" I think). And on the stock side it only had the plastic 5 position stock, with a 1600mAh NiMh. So I think it was suffering from what I can only describe as exessive pendulum momentum on the front end, With no weight in the back to counter it. Had the gun been balanced a bit better so I could have shouldered some weight when sighting it I think I would have been happier. The guy who owns the gun is 8" taller than me and also has arms like other peoples legs. So for him the balance was probably pretty good. He also spent the first day skirmish we went on with his full metal L85, He didn't put it down once, the man's a beast.

 

The actual physical weight on the strap wasn't bad but the single point harness dropped a lot of weight onto a single neck point, rather than spreading it over my shoulders. The gun shoots great, better than any of the others I've tested it's just not the right gun for me. Again a simple 2 point strap system and some careful kit conciderations to spread load would have improved the gun for myself.

 

 

I've got more systems to look into now.

 

L85, F2000, P90, UAR. I'll do some digging on all of them.

[Deek]

I have the F2000 'Hunter' version, i.e. the one with the built in scope.

 

As previously pointed out it is a huuuuuuge slab of plastic, but I quite like it, but it does have issues, such as problems on single shot (which makes it almost useless for the CQB sites I play at). One the plus side the scope is pretty accurate, it takes M16 mags and you don't see that many of them knocking around.

 

Another bullpup I absolutely love is the P90 - I owned 3 TM variants at one point, and they are very solid and reliable. Sadly I have no experience of the P90s made by other manufacturers, so can't really give feedback on them.

 

The TM FAMAS used to be the weapon of choice for new starters, and they were virtually indestructible. Because of this most sites offered them as their hire guns. The only down sides to the TM FAMAS would be actually finding one and the price.

 

If you have the spare time and the means available it might be worth visiting one of the larger physical retailers and handling some of their weapons as this might give you a better idea of what would be suitable for you.

[Avionyx]

As Deek has said I think it would be very beneficial if you could get to handle some of the options you are looking at.

 

For me the L85a2 is my preferred choice because I find the weight distribution and firing position suits my style of play. I think really you've already answered your own question after you said the M416 (a popular weapon indeed) didn't suit.

 

Where about's are you based? I'm sure some members would let you see how you like the positioning of different options.

Really whatever you do you will need to handle it first, because some people are happy to play with whatever they can, but others like me and you can find some guns just darn uncomfortable.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Every bullpup gun I can think of has a fixed stock (one can't adjust) and they're all different length guns. therefore you definitely need to try before you buy as the gun may not fit you. I have a P90, but lots of people have said it's an uncomfortable gun, either due to them having arms too long or moobs too big.

 

I'd suggest refining the options to a couple you like the look of and if you can't find someone with one to let you have a go, at least travel to an airsoft store and try them in person.

 

Have you tried using something M4ish with a foregrip and a 3 point sling? I wouldn't say a single-point sling provides any comfortable support for a rifle sized gun, just the ability to leave the gun hanging off your kit.

[BBrotherwood]

I own two AUGs (F88s to be pedantic ) and until recently an L85. Like you I cant get on with the AR/M4 platforms as I find them all too short in the stock. If you want a rifle and dont want to add anything to it then a A1 AUG is a good choice. Very pointable and easy to get along with although finding places with Mid Caps in stock is awkward at times. The A2 is a good choice if you want to just add a site to a rifle but it does not really replicate any real rifles. The A3 is the third choice if you want to go ballistic adding accessories to it. Like the A2 though they are a very poor representation of the real A3 but there are some inserts available on shapeways (3d printed) to fix this. You would likely find that this is quite a front heavy rifle as well but because of the motor being right at the back I would imagine it would still be fairly well balanced.

The L85 I also found decent to work with even with the added complexities of the GBB system on mine. For me though I found it was slightly awkward to use with the standard handgaurd until I used the sling to help support the front of the rifle. No idea if this is how the forces are trained but it was something I learned shooting the N08 in cadets and it helped massively. My friend now has the rifle though and fitted a DD rail and it is very nice to handle.

I'm seeing more F2000s about but unfortunetly have never had the chance to handle one along with the Tavor :/

Probably the biggest deciding factor between and L85 and an AUG is weather or not you need to be able to shoot single shot for the purposes of a sites rules. There is a modification you can do to the AUG trigger to create a semi position but it is a bit of work. Otherwise you are stuck with the two stage trigger and it is very hard to be able to consistently fire single shots with it. If you sites have no restrains on full auto then its not a problem otherwise you will need to start modifying it from the off.

[Samurai]

You don't need long barrel for accuracy.

[Iceni]

So what does improve accuracy then? Tighter bore, Better inner barrel spacing, better air regulation without internal system leakage. Higher quality BB and more weight if windy.

I'm working through a load of websites now, Looking at several options.

I'm concirened about a few things and am getting sidetracked pretty quickly having to look into gearboxes and switchgear. I've done some reading on how the mosfets work and why arc suppression is needed with a higher C rating.

There is a lot to take in.


There are several guns appearing that are certainly within budget.

The JG's Civilian Aug A1. It would need some tweaking, A seperate selector switch for single auto. Tigher barrel. The magazine quality appears to be an issue.

The Famas seems like it might be a contender as well.

I'm still working reviews atm so everything is still in speculation. I will look through everything and every design internally and externally before I start to look for shops with stock to visit.

My location is Coventry. We have The Grange locally (350fps auto 0% tollerance on fps) and I belive fireball is pretty close as well.

[sp00n]

Word of warning, getting genuine replacement parts for a TM famas can be a pain. As I found out when I restored one (still need a few bits)

[Russe11]

If you want something under £200, that is accurate, then bullpups may not be the way to go. Consider an M14 or AK.

Barrel length only affects range if the barrel is too short for the bb to achieve stability. This is unlikely to be an issue.

[Samurai]

M14 is very front heavy. Famas is way too old. Don't go bullpup because of the barrel length, so you have much more choices.

AK is not an M4 and is a good choice. You can go full tactical or oldschool too.

[beastmode]

I have a g&g l85. Head over to the sa80 page on Facebook, always people selling them second hand on there. If you decide against bulpup in the end I personally like the g36 for weight and balance and they are fairly easy to mod.

 

What improves accuracy is a combination of things. Better barrel 6.03 or 6.05 should work well but buy a decent make. New hop up chamber. G&g green bucking and nub works well. And if your looking for more range you can look into flat hops and r hops.

[Iceni]

You guys are all stars!

Granted you have changed what I'm looking at a fair bit, but that is good.

I'm still working through gear, I found a page on one website with exploded diagrams of the guns. And that has been helping a lot. And I have acess to a setup L85a2 so I think my next port of call is a cup of cofee and a good chat with the owner. Then perhaps a few hours shooting with it to evaluate it.

Barrel wise I did a fairly extensive module in material science at university. I've looked into the barels available and provided the tollerances listed are correct I think I can work with a stainless steel uncoated model I have a vernier guage and some micrometers and know what to do with them. I have a range of sharpening hones for my other big hobby (cut throat razors). And stones that rate from 1K grit to 20K grit (naniwa chosera/suherio), + graded Chromeoxide powder (60K) and diamond lapping fluids (decimal micron grades). With those I can polish stainless up to mirror finished internally using slurries and wadding. And with that I should be able to make a cheaper barrel perform a bit better by removing all machining marks. Stainless is horrible to work with tool steel would be better but it's still workable provided I go at it correctly (stainless will pull and slough rather than grind in a lot of cases the solution is less speed and more time).

I'm looking into second hand as well. I'm have no problem with a faulty gun. I'm capable of rewinding motors, soldering cleanly, and re-wirewing. As well as rebuilding a gearbox with a diagram. Provided I can see it I can do it, It can't be any harder than an engine or vehicle gearbox and I've done plenty of those.

[Samurai]

Don't reinvent the wheel. Even airsoft mechanics with tremendous experience don't make inner barrels. Those should be very straight lengthwise. If you turn it and work on it that way, it can be precise in diameter but it still can be wavy.

There is a lapping tool someone makes that polishes the barrel lengthwise, but it doesn't make much difference.

The high end inner barrels are very good and I don't think they can be improved in a workshop.

 

Also bear in mind that inner barrels don't contribute much to the accuracy. Even if you have a normal chinese gun, and change only the inner barrel, there won't be much improvement. If the original wasn't faulty (scratches or bent) then the difference is not noticeable. Precision barrels are one of the worst price/value upgrades.

 

When you get the gun, check the inner barrel if it's straight, and polish it maybe.

[Iceni]

Don't worry about me making it wavy, I've seen the regular cleaning guide with T-cut. It's one of those fluids that I see as been agressive and not much use other than for paint. The grits I have acess to are graded and much finer, And the method would be much the same as the T-cut method. The only difference is you don't pour onto your wadding. You wet the stones, then build a paste on them with a diamond lapping plate, then take that paste to the wadding. The actual material this method will remove is less than the T-cut method, and will take longer. I have the stones and I have the correct rotation of stones to get to a mirror finish, I'd be an idiot not to use them. Provided I start at about 5-8K rather than 1K then it's a pure polish rather than a cut and polish. Same as refreshing a straight razor edge, Your not cutting a bevel just polishing what is already there. I'm also the sort of person who will happily sit for a day doing this. I never rush.

this is the sort of polish 12K would get you.

[ImTriggerHappy]

Lapping a cheap barrel will not get the same results as buying a decent barrel. Its not about the polish more about the straightness and consistency of bore. Companies like Pdi, prommy and orga have specialist tooling and machinery to get their barrels as perfect as possible the cheap manufacturers dont even come close to the same level of accuracy. I will have a go at making anything but would leave a barrel well alone.

[Iceni]

O.k I've had time to browse the gun selections.

I've looked into most of the models and it's come to a choice between the ICS L85. I would have to go second hand. Or I can get a new JG AUG. I just can't seem to find as many parts for the guns that don't use standard gearboxes. And that for me is a big problem as I play with things, And like tweaking.


The AUG I'm looking at would be this setup.

http://en.safarasoftair.com/golden-bow-aug-military-tan
http://en.safarasoftair.com/element-silent-head-set-ver-3
http://en.safarasoftair.com/golden-bow-magazine-for-aug-330
http://en.safarasoftair.com/weapons/battery-charger/lipo-battery/ep-2800-7-4-30c-lipo-battery
http://en.safarasoftair.com/weapons/battery-charger/battery-charger/we-nuprol-lipo-battery-charger-with-balancer
http://en.safarasoftair.com/weapons/sling-and-adapter/sling/multipurpose/pantac-tactical-sling-ver-ii-tan

With postage that comes in at about £180

[Samurai]

The silent piston head set does nothing.

That charger is overpriced. You can get an imax b3 (same inside) from ebay cheap.