Opinions on UKAPU

[typefish]

1 hour ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Then the question becomes, should it rather be a business who get sponsorships from sporting or tactical clothing companies or things of that nature and produce entertainment content about airsoft, like famous guntubers like Matt from Evike? (That was a joke)

 

I wouldn't joke about that, as when shit has hit the fan, it's the brand ambassadors and content creators (which does include journalists) with actual reach that can help throw something important into the public eye that on the face of it, most people would not care about, even if to those in the know it is scary.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

1 hour ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Then the question becomes, what does a player union even do? Lobbying group? Lobbying for what? What bargaining power does it have? What is there to lobby that the free market is not able to invent? Maybe acting as market research agency working with UKARA and field owners and players and sponsors and insurance brokers? Or is it merely a symbol for the fragmented nature of the airsoft hobby?

 

 

 

[Pseudotectonic]

Indeed the recent Bill C-21 from Canada and the CPSC-2023-0021 from the US are both excellent case studies.

Both did not have any existing airsoft association or things of that nature, but both "communities" organised and mobilised themselves to do the lobbying. The retailers and field owners and players got together to achieve one goal, and they were effective at it and they succeeded.

Youtube undoubtedly played a key role in both cases (especially for the US) because of how easy it is to have someone clearly explain a cause, and to have the link easily copy pastable, so words can spread quickly.

Both are precisely the sort of threats we think about when we say airsoft needs protection. If something very similar were to happen in the UK, say some sort of bill being proposed affecting airsoft in some way, do we as a community have the resources for ad hoc organisation? In fact, isn't UKARA already doing all the behind-the-scene stuff? Heck, UKARA itself appears to be a very product of past lobbying that became quasi-official regulatory body if there is one.

Which again brings the question of why would we need a "peacetime" airsoft association in the first place. It would seem evident that its entire raison d'être can be better served by a bunch of youtubers. What is it different about UK airsoft that we need something the Canadians and Americans don't?

[typefish]

4 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Both are precisely the sort of threats we think about when we say airsoft needs protection. If something very similar were to happen in the UK, say some sort of bill being proposed affecting airsoft in some way, do we as a community have the resources for ad hoc organisation? In fact, isn't UKARA already doing all the behind-the-scene stuff? Heck, UKARA itself appears to be a very product of past lobbying that became quasi-official regulatory body if there is one.

 

Both UKARA and UKAPU do the behind the scenes stuff.

[TacticalWaifu]

10 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

One can argue any more regulation than that is not really necessary and is just going to limit the open-ended nature of the hobby.

One can even argue airsoft is not a sport because it is too open-ended.

[more whataboutism and hypotheticals]

Then the question becomes, what does a player union even do? Lobbying group? Lobbying for what? What bargaining power does it have? What is there to lobby that the free market is not able to invent? Maybe acting as market research agency working with UKARA and field owners and players and sponsors and insurance brokers? Or is it merely a symbol for the fragmented nature of the airsoft hobby?

 

"One can argue" the sky is white and the sea is blaze orange, doesn't make it true, or relevant to this thread.

 

Nobody proposed "any more regulation" than what is actually required, if you took the time to read the thread properly. The idea of an SGB was raised specifically with the concern that it not needlessly encumber players or operators.

 

As for the "one can even argue one is airsoft is not a sport" ... you're just trolling for trolling's sake. The ESC definition of "sport" is:

 

Quote

"Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical fitness and mental well-being, forming social relationships or obtaining results in competition at all levels

 

Let's see how that related to airsoft, shall we?

 

• Casual participation: yes, walk onto any skirmish site and just play.
• Organized participation: yes, there are pre-arranged game days and game modes available, as well as the likes of milsim events.
• A lot of players have said improving their health happened to be an aim, and probably a greater number say it tends to be a good thing for their mental well-being - in the same way riding a motorcycle can improve well-being for bikers.
• Forming social relationships? Absolutely.
• Obtaining results in competition at all levels: an option, not a requirement, but yes -- UK has held qualifiers for the G&G World Cup, the UK Action Shooting Association was a thing (UK association for ActionAirgun), and was later associated with IAPS (International Airsoft Practical Shooting), never mind sites having ranges with electronic targets where competitions have been held... so yes, absolutely has and can be competitive in the formal definition.

As such, you can try and argue it's not a sport all you want (although I don't see why you'd feel the need to try and thrust yourself upon that particular sword), but the European Sports Charter would disagree with you... as would the OED:

 

Quote

An activity involving physical exertion and skill, esp. (particularly in modern use) one regulated by set rules or customs in which an individual or team competes against another or others.

 

Definitely involves physical exertion, and skill -- you can't just run around spamming full auto and "win the game" - there are additionally rules and customs adopted, so yeah - whether you see it as just a hobby or not is up to you, but it's absolutely a sport.

 

Returning to the UKAPU question, "what do they even do" is a very valid question, especially given their total silence in recent years. "Bargaining power" would generally apply to the likes of unions, or large organisations like the NHS having large quotas to fill, when seeking preferential pricing with manufactures -- an association with free membership and a couple of thousand members doesn't have bargaining power.

 

The "free market" is irrelevant if manufacture specs, usage, etc. are curtailed by legislation -- so that point doesn't apply, either.

 

UKAPU absolutely aren't (and shouldn't be) market research 😂

 

The idea of a national "sport governing body," working to the aim of formal recognition within the UK, is the *opposite* of your "fragmented nature" analogy, but it would seem apparent with the long list of hypotheticals, that you just want to say your piece. You seem to have had the very knee-jerk reaction to the word governing that I addressed in my very first mention of it - and that it need not have much more than existing agreed-upon standards, and some formal organisation - but with a much greater cause and end result.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Hands up everyone who has seen a BB end up inside the eye area of airsof glasses

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by TacticalWaifu

[Rogerborg]

6 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

What is it different about UK airsoft

 

Well, we've already had our Shadrach in the furnace moment in the VCRA, and our regulatory reprieve by the grace of God (and the Association of British Airsoft, as-was).  Now we're actually in a pretty strong position, as airsoft guns have been well defined in primary national legislation since 2017.  Contrast with (e.g.) New York City which raged out and criminalised gel-blasters on a whim, with a definition so broad that it would also seem to cover all piston airsoft guns and many Nerfs as well (and had about as much effectiveness as you'd imagine).

 

While it's true that we could lose RIFs at the stroke of some future Home Secretary's pen, I don't think it's actually likely.  If there's one thing I'm sure of it's that Parliament hates to admit that legislation has failed, just that it needs more of the same.  For example, constantly adding new and ever more specific types of weapon to the list of prohibited ones.  We might see tweaks to the definition of our defence, but I'd be very surprised if it were removed entirely.

 

In terms of the activity itself, nah, we'll be fine.  Slinging small, low energy things at each on private land other isn't going anywhere any time soon.  We might end up doing it with day-glo gel-blasters eventually, but the core of the activity (dressing up, yelling at each other, and taking it all far too seriously) is safe enough.

[djben9]

On 15/06/2023 at 11:10, Jacob Wright said:

It's taken me a while to decide whether to reply to this, and if so, what I should say. As Shamal has rightly stated, I am the East of England UKAPU representative. I initially joined as a member, but decided that I would like to further support the community as a regional representative.

 

During my interview for the position I too expressed reservations with regard to what the union provide - as others have pointed out, the social media pages are not frequently updated and there is little 'evidence'. All representatives are volunteers, and in any case, I believe that the Press Officer position is vacant.

 

There is often assistance offered to player-members which unfortunately goes unreported due to this. This has involved helping with customs and import of RIFs, where players experienced issues - and similarly assisted players in Northern Ireland where I believe there have been further issues with customs.

 

Following the COVID-19 pandemic, the Union were approached by a number of game organisers/site owners to gauge the legality of running games during the lift of restriction levels. The Union provided this guidance, but it was highlighted that if Airsoft was registered as a sport (like paintball is), then we potentially could have returned sooner. However, in order to register as a sport we would require a national governing body.

 

The membership was 'sold' to me as more of an insurance scheme; in case I should ever need assistance, but also to support the ongoing efforts of the Union to provide some kind of national governing body - which was well supported by representatives, members, non-members and site owners when discussed with them.

 

Whilst it was before my time, I believe the references to 'proposed bans' etc relate to the VCRA 2007 bill. @Cannonfodder if you would like I will try to find more information relating to this.

 

Unfortunately, our Chairman has suffered from issues with his personal circumstances lately, and this has led to our AGM not happening as early in the year as perhaps would be expected. Rest assured, I am actively pursuing this and hope it will be able to go ahead soon. With this in mind, I cannot comment on the plans going forward for the annual members skirmish or attendance at NAE.

 

In the past I have attempted to arrange a members only game, but then struggled to find a site to host it at. It is on my list of things to arrange, and as soon as I have news I will share it.

 

I do recognise that perhaps the communications from the Union have not been as good as would be expected, and for that please accept my apology.

 

@Rogerborg - are you referring to the Operation Stigma II post on Facebook from May 2022 as this is all I can find?

 

@RebelScum if you would like, please send me a message and I will do my best to chase up your patch - as it is of course not right that you have yet to receive it.

 

Finally, I would like to address suggestions that members of the Union are in it to 'make a name' for themselves, or as an 'ego boost'. I appreciate this is personal opinion, but when engaging with other representatives I have not experienced this. I see the other representatives as individuals with only the interests of the players and the sport at heart.

 

My inbox is always open, and I am always more than happy to engage with any player, whether they are a member or not. I've done my best to address what people have said, and am happy to discuss anything.

 

- Jacob

I didn’t known I had a EofE rep!!. 😬

Are you still looking for local games, can gunman not help out at Tuddenham?

[Jacob Wright]

10 hours ago, djben9 said:

I didn’t known I had a EofE rep!!. 😬

Are you still looking for local games, can gunman not help out at Tuddenham?

Yes you do!

Initially when I took up the role I was mostly playing at Reforger and a site near Royston, but now I'm leaning more toward Combat at Thetford and Gunman Tuddenham. Drop me a message and we'll sort something out - as you say, I'm sure Gunman would be happy to facilitate.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Jacob Wright
Spelling 🙄

[hunter511]

So erm....

 

Did UKAPU actually get their act together or is it back to "please gib us monies, we totes do stuff behind the scenes that you won't hear of" as a business model again?

[UKAPU Press Office]

13 hours ago, hunter511 said:

So erm....

 

Did UKAPU actually get their act together or is it back to "please gib us monies, we totes do stuff behind the scenes that you won't hear of" as a business model again?

 

Press releases will be out shortly  

[TacticalWaifu]

1 hour ago, UKAPU Press Office said:

 

Press releases will be out shortly  

 

Can you define "shortly," please? -- as it's coming up to 1.5 weeks since you claimed "Initial drafts of press releases concerning both the AGM and present structure of the committee have been written, and will shortly be reviewed prior to release" ...

Edited July 5, 2023 by TacticalWaifu

[UKAPU Press Office]

Thanks, as long as everything goes to plan then the press releases will be emailed out today. Once confirmed that they have gone out I'll put a link up here, and will be circulated to other outlets also.

Edited July 6, 2023 by UKAPU Press Office
Technical Issues

[Skullchewer]

[TacticalWaifu]

Oh dear... You said it would be out by midday, then changed it to "today" without any notification or explanation, not the best transparency and "press" communication...

 

The email that's just arrived says there's an AGM set for August 3, which is technically 28 days from today (as per Clause 8.4 of the Constitution) ... but Clause 8.3 says,

 

Quote

Nomination of candidates for election to executive committee positions shall be made in writing to the Secretary at least 45 days in advance of the AGM date.

 

(emphasis mine).

 

As you're proposing having an AGM 28 days from today, which should be electing new Officers for UKAPU, you've completely failed to allow sufficient time for any "full members' to nominate themselves as candidates for election to the executive committee.

 

Additionally, per Clause 8.5, the secretary requires at least 14 days notice of matters to be raised at the AGM (from full members only) -- which would be July 20, *not* July 24 as the email states.

 

As such, your matters-to-be-raised date is 4 days later than it should be, and your submit-nominations-by date is way off, as they would have to have been received by June 19 as per the constitution.

 

Considering the release was quietly delayed, presumably for last-minute proofreading or editing, it's rather concerning that you're failing to follow some of the most basic parts of the constitution, namely concerning the election of committee members / officers, and how AGMs are held and formed.

 

@UKAPU Press Office any explanation on why it seems that between the interim chairman, interim vice-chairman, and press officer, there is such a substantial discrepancy in this basic organisation, that goes completely against what the Constitution states? Unincorporated associations are bound by the terms of the Constitution, but UKAPU still appears to be throwing it in the trash and making things up?

 

(It's also worth noting that in this notification you've failed to provide a link to the Discord where the proposed AGM would be held, or confirmed when the completed agenda would be circulated to members... the substantial concerns noted above notwithstanding, it's a bit difficult for members to participate if you don't share with members how to attend, or confirm you'll actually provide them with agenda in sufficient time... the latter seeming unlikely, given the lack of regard afforded to the Constitution so far 🫤)

Edited July 6, 2023 by TacticalWaifu

[Adolf Hamster]

39 minutes ago, Skullchewer said:

 

See i'm not the only one who got this.

 

Although i dont rightly remember ever signing up to ukapu so one is wondering where they got their hands on my email?

[typefish]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

Although i dont rightly remember ever signing up to ukapu so one is wondering where they got their hands on my email?

 

The only place where we get the e-mails from is from the UKAPU site. You therefore have an account with us.

 

Send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll be more than happy to pass across to you details as to when you had registered with us.

Edited July 6, 2023 by typefish

[Adolf Hamster]

2 hours ago, typefish said:

 

The only place where we get the e-mails from is from the UKAPU site. You therefore have an account with us.

 

Send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll be more than happy to pass across to you details as to when you had registered with us.

 

For the benefit of the curious we have established via pm that the problem in this case is my atrocious memory.....

[Jedi_Master]

Moderator Comment

 

I have removed posts that were going off-topic. Remember to play nicely, not all posts were being constructive to the discussion, and not everyone has a sense of humour.

[Rogerborg]

11 hours ago, Jedi_Master said:

Remember to play nicely

 

[EDIT FOR NICENESSNESS]

 

[UKAPU Press Office]

For those who haven't seen their emails, or would like to view here are the links. Discord link will follow closer to the time. Weekly reminders will go out on Facebook and Instagram also.

 

https://www.ukapu.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/AGM-Release.pdf

 

https://www.ukapu.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Committee-Release.pdf

[TacticalWaifu]

2 hours ago, UKAPU Press Office said:

For those who haven't seen their emails, or would like to view here are the links. Discord link will follow closer to the time. Weekly reminders will go out on Facebook and Instagram also.

 

https://www.ukapu.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/AGM-Release.pdf

 

https://www.ukapu.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Committee-Release.pdf

 

This still doesn't address that you're violating the Constitutionally-set timeframes for both agenda items and election nominations -- care to explain why that is?

Edited July 7, 2023 by TacticalWaifu

[Tackle]

[TacticalWaifu]

23 minutes ago, Tackle said:

[rule-breaking BS]

 

Yeah, heaven forbid I want the resulting election to actually be valid, so that threads like this don't exist any more... 🙄 Real mature of you.

[Shamal]

6 minutes ago, TacticalWaifu said:

 

Yeah, heaven forbid I want the resulting election to actually be valid, so that threads like this don't exist any more... 🙄 Real mature of you.

Can't you take it up with ukapu directly.

Regards 

[SBoardley]

4 minutes ago, Shamal said:

Can't you take it up with ukapu directly.

Regards 

What a lovely and polite way of saying what everyone else is thinking…

Edited July 7, 2023 by SBoardley
Kindness filter applied