Decent starter gun with potential for DMR

[ParHunter]

Hi,

 

I am starting out at Airsoft and I am looking for a decent starter gun that I could upgrade to a DMR at some point.

 

A little background, I am not the youngest player on the field (my son got me into airsoft) so I won’t be running around all day long. I trained as a sniper in my youth but at that time we weren’t as equipped as modern day snipers. We basically just had a slightly modified H&K G3 with a scope.

 

So while I don’t want to start out as a sniper straight away I would like to have a gun that shoots accurately on longer distances.

I don’t want to spend too much initially as I don’t know how serious I am going to take this hobby (I’ve got other hobbies that take up time). But I don’t want to buy something that isn’t good enough to continue.

 

I normally don’t buy bottom of the range but it seems with Airsoft you have to upgrade your gun anyway to get a decent setup (tight bore barrel 6.03, new hop up, mosfet etc).

So I am wondering whether I should get a cheap gun like the Double Bell MK12 SPR MOD0 or 1 for about £170 and then upgrade, pay £100 more for a Specna Arms MK12 (not great features compared to similar priced Specna M4s) or pay around £350 for a CYMA C097 platinum (M4) or C098 platinum (AR10 based).

Could I save myself the upgrade when I go with a slightly better model like the CYMA platinum or am I better off starting with a cheap model and upgrading it?

 

What do you think? What would a basic upgrade cost (barrel, hop up and mosfet)? £100 or more?

 

I could do the barrel, hop up myself however I wouldn’t want to touch the gear box to install a mosfet.

 

Can you suggest any other models that might suit a DMR starter?

 

 Regarding later upgrading the spring and locking it to semi auto. Is a programmable mosfet the way to go for locking it? 

 

So on my wish list would be:

• Quick change spring (deal breaker)
• Rotary hop up (could be upgraded)
• Tight bore barrel (can be upgraded)
• Mosfet (that could be set to semi auto only)

 

 

Thanks for your suggestions. 

[Tackle]

Easy peasy lemon squeezy , get a CYMA M14 Socom, great out of the box, wee bit shorter than the standard m14 so still adept at urban sites, hi caps have big mag capacity so no need to festoon yourself in tactical nylon with a gazillion pouches, in fact a small grab bag & 3 mags would probably cover most skirmish day needs & make being a sneaky mofo a piece of piss. 

Works for me lol. 

 

Edit. Just see your "deal breaker", don't think quick change spring is an option (I could be wrong though ?), but still a great rifle for getting in the dmr/sniper mindset for not a lot of money. 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You'd be better forgetting any ideas of range/accuracy and just buying a decent beginner sub-£150 rifle or SMG (read: AR15/AK/MP5 etc) and learning how to play and getting into the sport before getting into more advanced play styles such as DMRs and Sniping.

 

Many start out with big ambitions wanting to be a sniper/marksman having watched the movies or worse the YooChoob fannies like ThickingMudStain or NovitBitch with their heavily edited (read: false/embellished) videos. Reality is somewhat different. Firstly, "accuracy" is a misnomer in airsoft, if you can hit an A4-sized target at 25m you're doing pretty well. Secondly, sniping or DMRing is a very different play style, can be difficult and frustrating for beginners. Me, I find hiding in bushes dressed like a wookiee with a stonking great lance of a gun boring, but that's just me.

[Adolf Hamster]

Above is solid advice.

 

"Quick change" springs in airsoft often arent actually that quick to change, sure it's a handy thing that makes working on a gearbox easier but often not much more than that. I wouldnt let that put you off buying a gun you actually want.

 

Same with rotary hops, nominally capable of finer adjustment than conventional hops but once you're at the level to leverage that advantage changing the unit will be a formality.

 

Same again with barrels, the effect of nominal bore diameter on accuracy is very much secondary to overall manufacturing quality (consistency of bore along the length, straightness, interior finish etc) and pales in comparison to the requirement for the rest of the gun to be good enough to even notice the difference a "better" barrel can provide.

 

Mosfets aren't the worst if you have basic soldering skills, even if you don't there are options to get around it, although learning to solder remains a useful skill in this hobby.

 

Chasing accuracy is an entertaining pursuit, but no matter what you buy going in it'll be an expensive and difficult route filled with regret, pride and rage in equal measures.

[ParHunter]

1 hour ago, Ebeneezer Goode said:

You'd be better forgetting any ideas of range/accuracy and just buying a decent beginner sub-£150 rifle or SMG (read: AR15/AK/MP5 etc) and learning how to play and getting into the sport before getting into more advanced play styles such as DMRs and Sniping.

 

Many start out with big ambitions wanting to be a sniper/marksman having watched the movies or worse the YooChoob fannies like ThickingMudStain or NovitBitch with their heavily edited (read: false/embellished) videos. Reality is somewhat different. Firstly, "accuracy" is a misnomer in airsoft, if you can hit an A4-sized target at 25m you're doing pretty well. Secondly, sniping or DMRing is a very different play style, can be difficult and frustrating for beginners. Me, I find hiding in bushes dressed like a wookiee with a stonking great lance of a gun boring, but that's just me.

Hi,

 

If you read my post again you will see that I was a sniper in my army days (long time ago). So this is not YouTube driven 😉 

51 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

Above is solid advice.

 

"Quick change" springs in airsoft often arent actually that quick to change, sure it's a handy thing that makes working on a gearbox easier but often not much more than that. I wouldnt let that put you off buying a gun you actually want.

 

Same with rotary hops, nominally capable of finer adjustment than conventional hops but once you're at the level to leverage that advantage changing the unit will be a formality.

 

Same again with barrels, the effect of nominal bore diameter on accuracy is very much secondary to overall manufacturing quality (consistency of bore along the length, straightness, interior finish etc) and pales in comparison to the requirement for the rest of the gun to be good enough to even notice the difference a "better" barrel can provide.

 

Mosfets aren't the worst if you have basic soldering skills, even if you don't there are options to get around it, although learning to solder remains a useful skill in this hobby.

 

Chasing accuracy is an entertaining pursuit, but no matter what you buy going in it'll be an expensive and difficult route filled with regret, pride and rage in equal measures.

Thanks for the advice. Soldering won’t be the problem, I am more worried about not putting small mechanical things back together (e.g. in case I have to take the gears out etc). If you can just open up a gearbox and solder a mosfet in without having to take the whole thing apart then that might be an option.

[Tackle]

18 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

Hi,

 

If you read my post again you will see that I was a sniper in my army days (long time ago). So this is not YouTube driven 😉 

Thanks for the advice. Soldering won’t be the problem, I am more worried about not putting small mechanical things back together (e.g. in case I have to take the gears out etc). If you can just open up a gearbox and solder a mosfet in without having to take the whole thing apart then that might be an option.

To the best of my knowledge, in 21+ years of playing, I've never owned a gnu fitted with a mosfet, & I've had (& still have) a shitload of them, with no detrimental effect on my ability to play. 

If your reason for wanting a mosfet is to lock something to single shot, be aware that most sites that have dmr specs insist on mechanical disablement of full auto rather than mosfet, such as modified selector plate etc. 

[Tiercel]

Buy cheap, buy twice  

 

Internally between all those brands there probably isnt much difference and theyre all much of a muchness... where you will notice a difference is the overall build quality and material of the RIF. 

 

I highly rate the Specna Arms ones, as Ive found they tend to be rock solid and dont suffer from the usual creaks and wobbles of long replicas. Cyma are also good value for money. I dont know anything about Double Bell but Id be apprehensive about them, thats the sort of brand Id take a gamble on buying one second hand cheap with the intention of it being utterly crap and replacing everything in it anyway.

 

Quick change springs as already said arent really that useful. Unless youre playing at multiple sites, some of which allow you to run a 400-450fps DMR and others that dont, but in that case Id probably just buy two guns and have one for each, rather than faffing around changing a spring for each game weekend. Most require you to strip the gun down to the gearbox anyway by which point you may as well just open the gearbox up anyway, the biggest advantage is being able to remove the spring from the gearbox before opening it so it doesnt explode everywhere.

 

Opening up a gearbox isnt as bad as it sounds, they only have like 3 moving parts and theres millions of good youtube tutorials on an M4/version 2 gearbox. You can get in line plug in Mosfets that dont require any soldering and just connect into your wiring between the battery and gearbox battery connectors but Ive no idea if theyre any good compared to those you solder new trigger contact wires on etc which would require opening the box up.

[Shamal]

Yes that's true.

Mechanically locked.

[Ebeneezer Goode]

36 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

Hi,

 

If you read my post again you will see that I was a sniper in my army days (long time ago). So this is not YouTube driven 😉 

Thanks for the advice. Soldering won’t be the problem, I am more worried about not putting small mechanical things back together (e.g. in case I have to take the gears out etc). If you can just open up a gearbox and solder a mosfet in without having to take the whole thing apart then that might be an option.

Hi ParHunter,

 

Looking back at my post I think I came across as a bit condescending - my apologies! Been a long week and head nipping from being nagged by kids etc.

 

Respect for your service. There's lots of ex and even serving personnel in airsoft, quite a few at my site. Airsoft is pretty different from real steel in that in comparison accuracy is completely crap - we're dealing with 1/5th-1/2 gram plastic pellets shot from a smooth bore pneumatic device with an energy of only 1-2.5j, you could probably fart pellets harder.

 

Mechanically airsoft guns aren't that complex, there's a lot of fear around the inner workings but they are really pretty simple. Honestly, best advice I could give is go and have fun

 

Eezer G

[Leo Greer]

Arcturus Sport or NY06.

 

All you need is a hop rubber, some stabilization mods, and maybe a stronger spring (comes with a QC spring guide, so no gearbox work required), and you're pretty much good to go. PDI W-hold and Modify rubbers work very well in the Arcturus hop unit when paired with any kind of flat nub mod, which can be performed in minutes.

 

Depending on your DMR rules you may have to do something permanent, in which case the mod is relatively simple and shouldn't require any gearbox work. You just file the selector plate so the selector chip can't push it enough to turn to full auto. Either that or a simple washer blocking the selector plate from turning.

[Impulse]

Cyma SR-25 is great. Out of the box it will perform fantastically and it hits all of the stuff you want from it: quick change spring, rotary hop unit and tightbore out of the box and a mosfet (however, you'd probably want to replace it at some point with a Perun or something because it's very simple, can't be programmed and will likely burn itself out eventually)

 

And if you do want to DMR it, you basically only need to replace the spring as the internals are built for 460fps out of the box, they're just downgraded when they come into the UK.

[Speedbird_666]

1 minute ago, Leo Greer said:

Arcturus Sport or NY06.

 

Nearly bought an NY03 Lite because they looked cool and were a decent price on Patrolbase. Then I remembered those microwave oven door microswitch triggers and the inability to equip a decent ETU without modifications then thought better of it.

 

I was in the market for a DMR - I would be looking at the Cyma M14 as per @Tackle's recommendation. I've seen a few in the 'real' on game days and they seem to be really solid performers.

[Fatboy40]

To throw a spanner in the works my DMR started as a Double Eagle M908A.

 

I picked this for a few reasons...

 

# The "Falcon" controller, which has cycle control, so zero gearbox lock-ups on semi.

# A longer handguard so I knew it would support the inner barrel I wanted.

# A solid metal receiver so that I could drill it and mount a bolt to lock it to semi only.

# It has long wiring at rear so no issues with whatever stock and batteries I chose.

 

... and I'll happily admit that I've spent £200+ getting it to be almost all the way to what I want it to be.

 

Edit: And here's a photo of it... https://i.imgur.com/z0AVJpA.jpg

Edited May 12, 2023 by Fatboy40
Spelling

[ParHunter]

Thank you guys! Really good suggestions and information. 

[RostokMcSpoons]

My usual vote of confidence in the Double Eagle.  (I'm still waiting on those royalty checks, you bastards!)

I've got a Cyma M14 (the full length 'Nam version, rather than the compact SOCOM variety).   It does seem a pretty decent gun but I haven't gone as far as skirmishing it yet.  From what I saw in the short time I've fired it at range (rather than just the 15-18m in my garden), it's a steady rather than stellar out-of-the-box performer, but it gets a lot of love here.    It's a undeniably cool gun though (especially as Full Metal Jacket remains one of my favourite films)

Disassembling it, even just to replace the hop-up rubber, seems a bit scarier than with other rifles.   And the large quantity of plastic involved in the making a full rifle stock makes it a bit creaky.
If you do choose one, I'd send it off to Luke at Negative Airsoft to do the work for you - he'll sprinkle some pixie dust in there to make it a real good 'un (by all accounts)

Long-ish story short, the DE 908 would be a simpler thing to 'tech' yourself, and you'll be able to ask Fatboy for all the advice you could need. I'm sure he'll be more than happy to help!

[Impulse]

I have a Cyma m14 as well and it's also great, but it's a lot more intimidating to tech than an SR-25 or m4 style platform. Generally most Cyma guns will perform decently well out of the box, but are also affordable bases for upgrading and making something fancy. My Cyma m14 has had some work done on it to make it a bit quieter (though it's still an AEG so there's noise there) and make it super consistent and snappy and I had people at a private game thinking I was using a sniper rifle when I was using it.

 

Oh, also if you wanted to be a bit different... you could go for a Cyma SVD. I rarely see SVDs these days and I kinda wanna get one now. Damn it 🤣

Edited May 12, 2023 by Impulse

[Leo Greer]

4 hours ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

Nearly bought an NY03 Lite because they looked cool and were a decent price on Patrolbase. Then I remembered those microwave oven door microswitch triggers and the inability to equip a decent ETU without modifications then thought better of it.

 

I was in the market for a DMR - I would be looking at the Cyma M14 as per @Tackle's recommendation. I've seen a few in the 'real' on game days and they seem to be really solid performers.

 

I'll agree with you there--the lack of ability to easily add an ETU is a big consideration. Jefftron does make a unit that goes in place of the microswitch, but I don't remember too much about it, other than that it did add microswitch debouncing and optional AB functions. I think it cost under $40? So not cheap but not nuts either...

 

So far the microswitches in mine have held up... and hopefully will continue to... My NY06 microswitch is nearing 100K cycles with no issue, and I have a second at 20K (CAT Versatile). Of course, this is airsoft, your mileage may vary! If not, the replacement costs about $3 and needs to be soldered to three wires, so it won't be a huge deal, but definitely something to consider. Kinda like how the Cyma Platinum ETUs all burn out and need replacement eventually. 😑

 

My Cyma M14 has been nearly bulletproof so far... but it's heavy as heck and the M14 isn't a great platform to work on, which kept it off my recommendation. The long barrel is also a detriment potentially for any heavy BBs. I can't remember what the exact voluming numbers are, but I think above about .28g you start undervoluming. I may be wrong though. And, to be fair, y'all are in the UK where FPS limits aren't as high and you may not ever want to use BBs heavier than X weight.

[Krisz]

A proper DMR is always built up from the ground. Not saying you can't buy decent base guns but a DMR requires extreme amount of fine tuning when you really want to push it to the limit.

 

Internally perfect air seal, shimming, stronger motor for heavier springs, decent quality inner barrel/hop-up unit/bucking/nub, using quality heavy BB's etc...

 

If you can't outreach your opponent when you're forced to shoot only on semi and follow MED rules then there is no point to struggle with it.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Krisz

[Impulse]

9 hours ago, Krisz said:

A proper DMR is always built up from the ground. Not saying you can't buy decent base guns but a DMR requires extreme amount of fine tuning when you really want to push it to the limit.

 

Internally perfect air seal, shimming, stronger motor for heavier springs, decent quality inner barrel/hop-up unit/bucking/nub, using quality heavy BB's etc...

 

If you can't outreach your opponent when you're forced to shoot only on semi and follow MED rules then there is no point to struggle with it.

 

Pretty much this. It's why I never run anything at DMR power since I find that usually what you gain in a good DMR build over a good 1.1J build is minimal, but you lose that engagement within your MED and are locked to semi (though the latter isn't much of an issue for me since I prefer semi anyway).

 

14 hours ago, Leo Greer said:

My Cyma M14 has been nearly bulletproof so far... but it's heavy as heck and the M14 isn't a great platform to work on, which kept it off my recommendation. The long barrel is also a detriment potentially for any heavy BBs. I can't remember what the exact voluming numbers are, but I think above about .28g you start undervoluming. I may be wrong though. And, to be fair, y'all are in the UK where FPS limits aren't as high and you may not ever want to use BBs heavier than X weight.

 

Yep, this is also another factor for DMRs. Most bigger events will require that your DMR be weapon appropriate (so some sort of long barreled 7.62 or a mk12 or VSS or something), so you're going to run into voluming issues since you definitely want to be using heavier BBs in a DMR. HPA can solve this issue, but that comes with a bunch of its own issues (mostly an airline and strapping a bomb to yourself, along with very high setup costs). Short barreled AEGs are actually more efficient with heavy ammo, but can't be used at larger events as DMRs

[Leo Greer]

@Speedbird_666 Alright, I did some research on the Arcturus microswitch and what should be expected out of it.

 

First off, the electrical problem: microswitches aren't meant to handle more than about 15-16 amps, and stock airsoft guns typically pull 15-20, with upgraded guns or more inefficient setups being capable of pulling a lot more. This leads to early failure.

 

Secondly, under vibration the microswitch contacts vibrate very rapidly, causing arcing hundreds of times a second, which causes wear, carbon buildup, and, when connected to an ETU, damaging electrical pulses capable of easily overheating and melting the unit. This is likely the reason why ARES and Cyma ETUs that use microswitches as their trigger burn out so fast.

 

Now, here's the flip side: the Arcturus setup uses an inline 3034 MOSFET, which performs its purpose and reduces the current through the microswitch to basically none. This in turns solves the arcing and wear problems, and there is no ETU to speak of.

 

That leaves only mechanical difficulties, as many microswitches are fragile. This particular unit is rather sturdy, and the microswitch is rated to 1,000,000 cycles, meaning that if this info is correct, the microswitch should actually be one of the longest-lived parts in the gearbox.

 

Sources:

 

https://www.kingdomofairsoft.com/microswitches

 

https://www.grandye-switch.com/product/airsoft-micro-switch/

 

The grammar in the second link made me laugh.

[Krisz]

On 13/05/2023 at 18:42, Impulse said:

 

Pretty much this. It's why I never run anything at DMR power since I find that usually what you gain in a good DMR build over a good 1.1J build is minimal, but you lose that engagement within your MED and are locked to semi (though the latter isn't much of an issue for me since I prefer semi anyway).

 

 

Yep, this is also another factor for DMRs. Most bigger events will require that your DMR be weapon appropriate (so some sort of long barreled 7.62 or a mk12 or VSS or something), so you're going to run into voluming issues since you definitely want to be using heavier BBs in a DMR. HPA can solve this issue, but that comes with a bunch of its own issues (mostly an airline and strapping a bomb to yourself, along with very high setup costs). Short barreled AEGs are actually more efficient with heavy ammo, but can't be used at larger events as DMRs

 

I can hardly imagine that you turn up at a regular skirmish with a 10 inch m4 as a dmr and you're gonna be told it's not a dmr you can't use it reeeeeee...:D You lose customers for no reason. Which airsoft site can afford that nowadays.

 

The once a year milsim event is different everyone has a role and caliber rules are strict.

 

Biggest issue on HPA is the line. A tank can be a ticking time bomb assuming air is contaminated to my knowledge.

 

Best and most expensive solution right now is a wolverine mtw and a wrath aero stock. No line. But it costs a grand. 🙃

[Tackle]

This is what baffles me with some players, while I'm no stitch counter, especially when it comes to loadouts etc, when it comes to the guns almost everything is represented by one or more manufacturer, so all real world roles are easily achievable (assuming you have the £££ lol), so when someone arrives on site with a short barreled rifle & claims it's a dmr, or an M4 with a box mag is a support weapon, organisers should be saying "fudge off", weapon class rules aren't meant open to be open to your own interpretation in order to exploit any perceived advantages.

[Lozart]

On 12/05/2023 at 21:57, RostokMcSpoons said:

I've got a Cyma M14 (the full length 'Nam version, rather than the compact SOCOM variety).   It does seem a pretty decent gun but I haven't gone as far as skirmishing it yet.  From what I saw in the short time I've fired it at range (rather than just the 15-18m in my garden), it's a steady rather than stellar out-of-the-box performer, but it gets a lot of love here.    It's a undeniably cool gun though (especially as Full Metal Jacket remains one of my favourite films)

Disassembling it, even just to replace the hop-up rubber, seems a bit scarier than with other rifles.   And the large quantity of plastic involved in the making a full rifle stock makes it a bit creaky.
If you do choose one, I'd send it off to Luke at Negative Airsoft to do the work for you - he'll sprinkle some pixie dust in there to make it a real good 'un (by all accounts)

 

The Cyma (and of course the TM it's copied from) usually have excellent range and accuracy out of the box, hence the love. They don't NEED loads doing to them as long as you can live with the slow gearbox and slightly poo trigger response. A better motor, tightbore barrel and a decent hop rubber and you're off to the races for long range pewage! Obviously the SOCOM scores by being a little bit easier to manhandle but it's still a big lump compared to the average M4 (that said, my MK12 is long and heavy so....). Of course, if you really want a gun you can justify putting a bipod on just so you don't have to hold the bloody thing, get the EBR!