Lets discuss the difference between cultures about guns

[truckinthumper]

I am just really curious as to the societal views on firearms differ from the USA vs anywhere else. 
Not wanting to have a discussion on what YOU think should be done, but how actual people view them. 

That said, I am just a gun nut. Real, airsoft and any other firearms. I pretty much grew up fascinated with them and have always enjoyed shooting. 
I am probably the average gun nut here in the USA. I have competed in real steel matches of all sorts, all the way down to back yard can and BB competition with friends. 
Like most, we view them as tools, toys and conversation pieces. Things to tinker with and make better. 
Also, and most importantly, safety is the #1 thing. It ranks high and is always priority, even though we may call them toys. 

Funny thing is, most gun nuts I know understand the use for weapons in war and gives us a sobering understanding of the impact of projectiles (no pun intended). 
We view the violent use of firearms as the last option. 
We see no issue with them in every room, in cars, bikes, backpacks etc.. You could say it is the same thing as socks and shoes, just something we wear. 

I guess you could say it is similar to how a person would build hot rods, ride motorbikes, and other things that folks do for a hobby. 

No matter what  garbage you see on TV, I would hazard to say a majority of Americans think like this. 

So, ask me a question and I will give an answer, and a question back.  

[Shamal]

Hi fella.🙂

I think you are asking this question on a site that is almost exclusively populated with gun loving people so maybe a bit biased lol.

Or are you asking how we in the UK or other countries look upon gun ownership? 

I think the percentage of UK citizens in favour of banning guns here is quite high. I base this on the reactions I get from people when I slip into conversation what my hobby is. Eight times out of ten it's enought to cause an abrupt end to conversation and a hurried departure from my presence.lol.

 

We are building an extension and the customers have kindly given us their wi-fi password however they must have put filters on because I cannot get afuk or any gun related sites. 

 

Guns are a big part of American culture but not part of ours as a people.☹️

 

Regards 

 

 

 

[Pseudotectonic]

I think it is due to the American constitution literally have gun rights baked in (2A), so it is not just a big part of their culture, it is part of their primary definition as a people, which is supposedly a body of freedom loving warriors who defy oppression or whatever. Which I can see why Americans are proud of it and practice it religiously.

But most other countries have guns banned. Including the UK. So we don't have a similar warrior or militant mindset or culture. We have a richer history and civilisation to draw our cultural prides and identities from. This is not meant to be a jab towards Americans, simply to say we are very different cultures built on different foundations despite sharing the same language. In the UK, guns is a very taboo subject/object. We mostly associate it with high criminality rather than any sort of pride.

[Rogerborg]

I'd hazard a guess that over 90% of Brits, particularly urbanites and women, wouldn't own a gun even if we could buy one over the counter in the corner shop, no questions asked. There's no real passion for increasing gun rights, it's more of a rearguard action to preserve the few that are left.

 

The UK still has some amount of hunting, but it's a niche activity, split between seasonal bird shoots by the land-owning upper classes, managed culling of deer and some wild sheep, pest control (a lot done with airguns rather than bang-guns) and a bit of poaching.  There are a few target shooting clubs, and recreational clay pigeon shooting centres.

 

That said, shotgun licensing remains "shall issue" in the UK.  You have to apply and pay for a licence, provide references, and have secure gun storage, but otherwise it's up to the local police force to find a reason to refuse.  Once you have a shotgun certificate you can buy as many smoothbores as you like, up to a 2" cannon, or (I believe) a 3-shell pump action.

 

This means that in practice, anyone who wants a shotgun for pest control, recreational shooting, or any other reason (just don't say home or self defence) can get one, yet only about 1% of adults do.  I'm actually surprised it's that high.  If you were to use a firearm for self or home defence in the UK, you should expect to find yourself facing murder or manslaughter charges, irrespective of the circumstances.  Conversely, I'm not aware of any UK police constable who has been convicted over shooting someone while on duty, even when they give their evidence in the form of song titles.

 

Licensing figures: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/statistics-on-firearm-and-shotgun-certificates-england-and-wales-april-2020-to-march-2021/statistics-on-firearm-and-shotgun-certificates-england-and-wales-april-2020-to-march-2021

 

As at 31 March 2021, there were:

156,033 firearm certificates on issue, a 2% decrease

548,521 shotgun certificates on issue, a 3% decrease

565,929 people held a firearm and/or a shotgun certificate, a 3% decrease of 20,422 since last year

 

In the year ending 31 March 2021, there were:

4,988 new applications for firearm certificates, of which 98% were granted and 2% were refused

10,901 new applications for shotgun certificates, of which 97% were granted and 3% were refused

2,566 new coterminous applications, of which 97% were granted and 3% were refused

306 firearms certificates were revoked – a decrease of 18% (-65) compared with the previous year and 0.2% of the total firearm certificates on issue

982 shotgun certificates were revoked – a decrease of 14% (-159) compared with the previous year and 0.2% of the total shotgun certificates on issue

Experimental statistics: 365 firearms and shotguns were reported as lost or stolen; of which, 126 were lost and 239 were stolen

 

 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

The right to bear arms is enshrined in the 1689 Bill of Rights, and is the legislation that the second amendment is based on.  This bill was passed after a series of, revolutions, civil wars, and a regicide, by one would guess a pretty militant citizenry...    Whilst the right exists, how it is applied and administered has changed.  In the early 20's licenses were introduced for firearms.  These maintained the right but restricted (further) those who could access that right.  

 

Until 1968(ish) you could buy a shotgun license from a post office, just like a TV or dog license.  

 

Both licenses are administered now by the police.  If your grant of a license is withheld, you can argue that your rights have been infringed in court, and ask the infringement overturned.  

 

For numerous items in case law have a read of Bill Harriman's work.  Most of what I found online on the subject is bilge tbh.  

 

If you want a really fascinating look at English rural working class firearms and weapons culture have a look at The Long Affray by Harry Hopkins that covers the 400 year long civil unrest/civil war/rebellion that enclosure brought.   You'll learn that nunchucks are not just from Bruce Lee flicks for one.  

 

For modern UK gun stuff look up Fieldsports TV online.  

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Tactical Pith Helmet

[truckinthumper]

First, I am glad this is being civil so far. 

I have had the pleasure of meeting many folks from all over the globe, and whenever I can I take them shooting, I do. 
I dont really know how many, but I have a hard time recalling any that did not have fun. I think one gal, but she also pissed herself over a spider, so that may not count. LOL 

I know there are many "its not legal here" attitudes, and I get it. What I do see quickly fade is the whole "taboo" thing goes away in a hurry and replaced with giggles and smiles. 
This is just a sample of what I have seen, so... take it for what it is worth. 

I just like to hear others views on many subjects, but this is one I am always curious about. 
I also believe that most people would enjoy owning multiple guns and would shoot them happily. 
My favorite people are the Asians, mainly the Japanese and Chinese. Boy, they REALLY get exciting after a few shots. Moreso than any other foreigner that comes to the USA. 

If we just set aside any laws, I will agree with all the post. There are some people just dont like guns. I understand that. It is neat how society can drill into a persons psych how guns are bad and a taboo. Why I always offer to take people shooting. 

I also see a correlation between people who live in bigger cities, have a major fear of guns, where folks from the country or more rural areas are way less skittish. No matter what part of the world they are from. THAT is the amazing part and speaks volumes.  

Edited September 23, 2022 by truckinthumper

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

6 minutes ago, truckinthumper said:

I also see a correlation between people who live in bigger cities, have a major fear of guns, where folks from the country or more rural areas are way less skittish. No matter what part of the world they are from. THAT is the amazing part and speaks volumes.  

Remember that the UK is several nations with different but interconnecting histories/legal systems etc on several small islands.  

 

I live in the (highly rural) area with the highest gun ownership and a rich working class shooting tradition even with driven bird shooting.   Roger lives in the hilly bit somewhere with a tradition that I wouldn't know any more than he mine.  

 

One of the reasons for arguments is the difference in local experienced cultures I imagine.  In the village I grew up in, everyone's dad shot.  It won't be the same in a city, or an area with less rough shooting, local syndicate shoots etc.

[EvilMonkee]

And I grew up in the occupied 6 Counties of 'Northern Ireland' where gun ownership is an entirely different topic!! 

[Rogerborg]

I reckon I'm probably closer to representative of the Modal UK Male than @Tactical Pith Helmet but still a little more pro-boomstick than most.  It's hard to judge mass prevailing attitudes as any survey is likely to be highly biased towards producing a pro/anti-gun result, depending on who's commissioning it, and which demographic they canvas.  It'll be a very sharp divide between country and town, and region by region - as @EvilMonkeenotes.

 

I'm suburbanite, had airguns and easy access to countryside to shoot them in as a teen, have tried clay pigeon shooting and had a go with black powder musketry, which is when I looked into shotgun certificates and found that they were shall-issue and a very low bar.  That would be in the 1990s, I have a vague recollection that the security requirements then weren't even a gun cabinet, just a plan for securing them, e.g. chaining to something solid.

 

I'd speculate (and this is just speculation) that most UK men would vaguely like to own some kind of firearm.  But 98% of us find reasons not to.

 

And - this is sheer projection at this point - I'd venture to guess that the main reason more men don't have any boomsticks is that most women are very much against them.  Of all licensees, only 6% are women.  Mrs Borg doesn't even like the sight of my toy guns. I have to do my teching when she's out or asleep, and keep a pornhub tab open so that I don't get caught browsing airsoft sites.

 

It's also remarkable that 2/3rd of licensees are over 50.  Some of that will be due to a tailing off of younger people getting into shooting, but do I wonder how many are divorcees or widowers taking advantage of a new found freedom to indulge themselves.

[Impulse]

I'm a resident young'n here and I'm honestly planning on moving to the US in a few years through work and I'd be lying if I said 2A wasn't at least part of the reason (you could probably guess the states I'm looking at from that sentence alone). I grew up in the suburbs of Brighton (which is a very anti-gun place), but my father shot handguns a lot when he was younger and it was still legal. I got my first air rifle from my father, as well as a firm education on firearm safety, when I was about 10 and would go into the countryside to shoot at targets we'd hang from trees and also plink in the garden at empty beer cans, though when we moved into a new place we'd always clear it with neighbours and they were largely fine with it. My air rifle wasn't locked away or anything and I kept it in one of my cupboards in my room; I was just raised to not do anything dumb with it. I also always came back from Spain with various spring BB guns when we'd visit family out there during winter and spring because they were a lot cheaper over there.

 

I then joined army cadets as a teenager and I shot a lot there with both the cadet single shot L85 5.56 rifles and the semi-auto .22 conversions and even the L86 in all its full auto glory while out on army bases for exercises or summer camp, as well as the single shot .22s we had for the range on the school grounds (it was a CCF unit that was part of my school because I was a private schooler). I also shot the AUG when I went to Australia with cadets (I genuinely love that rifle) and fired a bunch of other guns that may or may not have been off the record . I also did clay pigeon shooting through cadets a handful of times, which was good fun!

 

I love shooting and I'm an advocate of responsible gun ownership for sport shooting, hunting, pest control and self-defense. Guns were all-but outlawed here and we're still murdering each other in the streets, just now we do it with handheld sharp objects instead.

[Tackle]

1 hour ago, Impulse said:

I'm a resident young'n here and I'm honestly planning on moving to the US in a few years through work and I'd be lying if I said 2A wasn't at least part of the reason (you could probably guess the states I'm looking at from that sentence alone). I grew up in the suburbs of Brighton (which is a very anti-gun place), but my father shot handguns a lot when he was younger and it was still legal. I got my first air rifle from my father, as well as a firm education on firearm safety, when I was about 10 and would go into the countryside to shoot at targets we'd hang from trees and also plink in the garden at empty beer cans, though when we moved into a new place we'd always clear it with neighbours and they were largely fine with it. My air rifle wasn't locked away or anything and I kept it in one of my cupboards in my room; I was just raised to not do anything dumb with it. I also always came back from Spain with various spring BB guns when we'd visit family out there during winter and spring because they were a lot cheaper over there.

 

I then joined army cadets as a teenager and I shot a lot there with both the cadet single shot L85 5.56 rifles and the semi-auto .22 conversions and even the L86 in all its full auto glory while out on army bases for exercises or summer camp, as well as the single shot .22s we had for the range on the school grounds (it was a CCF unit that was part of my school because I was a private schooler). I also shot the AUG when I went to Australia with cadets (I genuinely love that rifle) and fired a bunch of other guns that may or may not have been off the record . I also did clay pigeon shooting through cadets a handful of times, which was good fun!

 

I love shooting and I'm an advocate of responsible gun ownership for sport shooting, hunting, pest control and self-defense. Guns were all-but outlawed here and we're still murdering each other in the streets, just now we do it with handheld sharp objects instead.

Be aware that without citizenship I'm pretty sure you can't own a firearm in most if not all states, I've two sisters out there, both British born but one has dual citizenship & has pistols, the other doesn't & has feck all, but thankfully it's offset by her US born redneck hubby's arsenal lol

(PS, they're in Missouri)

[Impulse]

38 minutes ago, Tackle said:

Be aware that without citizenship I'm pretty sure you can't own a firearm in most if not all states, I've two sisters out there, both British born but one has dual citizenship & has pistols, the other doesn't & has feck all, but thankfully it's offset by her US born redneck hubby's arsenal lol

(PS, they're in Missouri)

 

Looked into it already and where I'm looking I should be good as a legal permanent resident, even as a foreigner; that said, I will be going for citizenship through either naturalisation or marriage, whichever happens first.

[truckinthumper]

1 hour ago, Impulse said:

 

Looked into it already and where I'm looking I should be good as a legal permanent resident, even as a foreigner; that said, I will be going for citizenship through either naturalisation or marriage, whichever happens first.

I have offered marriage services for Liberty loving ladies of other countries in the past, but I may have to draw the line at the males. 
HOWEVER, I know a female or two that may be able to help you out....  

[Tackle]

We've all seen "Love Actually", once they hear his accent, he'll be fighting the hotties off with a shitty stick 🤣

[BigStew]

23 hours ago, Impulse said:

I'm a resident young'n here and I'm honestly planning on moving to the US in a few years through work and I'd be lying if I said 2A wasn't at least part of the reason (you could probably guess the states I'm looking at from that sentence alone). I grew up in the suburbs of Brighton (which is a very anti-gun place), but my father shot handguns a lot when he was younger and it was still legal. I got my first air rifle from my father, as well as a firm education on firearm safety, when I was about 10 and would go into the countryside to shoot at targets we'd hang from trees and also plink in the garden at empty beer cans, though when we moved into a new place we'd always clear it with neighbours and they were largely fine with it. My air rifle wasn't locked away or anything and I kept it in one of my cupboards in my room; I was just raised to not do anything dumb with it. I also always came back from Spain with various spring BB guns when we'd visit family out there during winter and spring because they were a lot cheaper over there.

 

I then joined army cadets as a teenager and I shot a lot there with both the cadet single shot L85 5.56 rifles and the semi-auto .22 conversions and even the L86 in all its full auto glory while out on army bases for exercises or summer camp, as well as the single shot .22s we had for the range on the school grounds (it was a CCF unit that was part of my school because I was a private schooler). I also shot the AUG when I went to Australia with cadets (I genuinely love that rifle) and fired a bunch of other guns that may or may not have been off the record . I also did clay pigeon shooting through cadets a handful of times, which was good fun!

 

I love shooting and I'm an advocate of responsible gun ownership for sport shooting, hunting, pest control and self-defense. Guns were all-but outlawed here and we're still murdering each other in the streets, just now we do it with handheld sharp objects instead.

You really want to move to country primarily to own guns? I thought about moving to USA awhile back because of the money i could earn in my profession and had fallen in love with the side of America I had seen( I am a geek and regular travel to Atlanta for Dragon con basically geek mardi gras). Any way the more I looked into the more I saw the UK is shit the USA is shitter (it ani't getting any better). I have made friends over there most are professional all of them have been laid off multiple times with little warning and no restitution whats so ever in the time i have known them. An English friend who married a local has been there 8 years has had 8 jobs and only got his green card last year (he can still be chucked out the country for any reason). What ever state it's you'll miss the NHS, first year we went a friend had a drunken fall, went to get checked out at the hospital. A sprained ankle cost him 5k up front that he had to claim back on his travel insurance. 

" love shooting and I'm an advocate of responsible gun ownership for sport shooting, hunting, pest control and self-defense. Guns were all-but outlawed here and we're still murdering each other in the streets, just now we do it with handheld sharp objects instead."  5 times more people were murdered with knives in the USA in 2020 than in the UK. I really don't want to live in a country that i need to be armed to feel safe. 

The Whole self defence thing is a red herring you are more likely to be rob/burgled for your guns and much more like to kill a family member/friend, yourself than a "Bad guy". Restricting gun ownership works. Ever country with gun control laws has significantly less murders even by proportional population. The USA needs to get over the second amendment as  the out dated deliberately woefully misinterpreted legislation it is( it also needs get universal health care, reform education and Employee rights).

 

I know I'll be in the minority in this group with my stance. I would never want Americas gun culture in UK. I don't think guns should be banned but they should be heavily regulated. 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by BigStew

[Rogerborg]

8 hours ago, BigStew said:

I don't think guns should be banned but they should be heavily regulated. 

 

Do you think you should have one?

 

Do you think I should have one?

 

Where would you draw the line?

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

15 hours ago, BigStew said:

What ever state it's you'll miss the NHS

We'll miss the NHS here too before too long.  It's neither been truly national nor a service focused purely on health since 2012, and the latest health and social care act has completely torpedoed any pretence.  

[truckinthumper]

On 24/09/2022 at 14:10, Rogerborg said:

 

Do you think you should have one?

 

Do you think I should have one?

 

Where would you draw the line?

This coming from a Yank. 

Lets assume that guns are a "privilege" . 

I would be OK with mandatory training. I would probably treat the process the same as driving a car. 
I dont think firearms should be treated as if they are some oddity of society. 

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

On 24/09/2022 at 12:02, BigStew said:

<snipped>

 

I know I'll be in the minority in this group with my stance. I would never want Americas gun culture in UK. I don't think guns should be banned but they should be heavily regulated. 

 

Yup I'm with you.    For a bunch of reasons, but mostly because I'd like to feel fairly certain I'm not going to get shot in a robbery or by the police, by accident or design.   
The freedom to have some fun with firearms is something I'm prepared to give up both for 'the big picture' and 'the greater good'.

 

If I ever go to Texas I'll be down the range blasting with away with anything cool I can get my hands on though



 

[Rogerborg]

4 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

I'm not going to get shot in a robbery or by the police

 

Probably not.  We have been making inroads into firearms crime, although it's been essentially static since 2013 or so.

 

 

4 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

the greater good

 

[BigStew]

On 24/09/2022 at 20:10, Rogerborg said:

 

Do you think you should have one?

 

Do you think I should have one?

 

Where would you draw the line?

I have no idea about yourself but for me no. Going to a dark place, but there was a point in my life if I had a firearm in the house I wouldn't be here today and I am not sure I won't get that point again.

Edited September 29, 2022 by BigStew

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

On 26/09/2022 at 16:06, RostokMcSpoons said:

 'the greater good'.

The motivator of every dictator in history.  Human beings were murdered in industrial quantities in the last century for 'the greater good'.   The next centuries information age was ushered in by the death of around four million Congolese, largely over the power to mine/exploit corton reserves.  Of course, 100s of millions were digitally empowered as a result.  It's always the greater good...

 

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

7 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

The motivator of every dictator in history.  Human beings were murdered in industrial quantities in the last century for 'the greater good'.   The next centuries information age was ushered in by the death of around four million Congolese, largely over the power to mine/exploit corton reserves.  Of course, 100s of millions were digitally empowered as a result.  It's always the greater good...

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but I think we all know what it's supposed to mean

[Rogerborg]

59 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Yeah, but I think we all know what it's supposed to mean

 

Of course, real Greater Good has never been tried.

[Skullchewer]

Ironically, for a company based in America, that loves its guns, I just got a 30 day Facebook ban for talking about shooting people.... with an airsoft gun..... in an airsoft group. 🤦🏼