Told to leave site (Anzio)...

[Alimcd]

8 minutes ago, Steveocee said:

I'd have been shocked if it was any other site. Anzio are notorious for this. A friend of mine went to chrono with his MTW, turned all the way down, using 25's, was running about 300-305, marshall dried his teeth when chrono'ing and said he can play but if he gets pulled in game for random chrono then it's "his risk" - So it was under but still a chance of it not?

 

Great site for buildings, cover, layout.

Crap site for marshalls.

Was that Kyle? He’d mentioned they were stand offish about his mtw

[concretesnail]

Just as to add some balance to hat has been said.

 

I appreciate that what has happened with the OP and his friend is never going to feel good but it is a policy that is try to prevent what has happened in the past reoccurring. Which is challenging with such a big site and potential high player count.

 

What I have found at anzio is that chrono stations are available as are a range of weights to test and check that rifs are within limits.

The briefing, although some have moaned that it's too long, does cover the fact that they run spot check and random chrono throughout the day and what failing that results in. Its harsh but like I mentioned before, it's in response to previous incidents.

While joule creep is something that is possible with all the systems we use to play it is much more open to abuse within hpa setups.

It. would be nice to see a clarification on the sites rules as to how they intend to test in the play area for spot checks, that way responsible players can check their setups and tune accordingly, especially if they are genuinely honest and decent hpa users.

 

On a personal note i know I've been there with a freshly built rif post modding and it's been on the bleeding edge of limits and despite passing chrono, I've put it away, knowing that a fail of a spot check means. I also tested a brand new bolt action build which was over limits and staff were fine with me putting it away and using something else, although this is all done before the start of the day at the chrono station rather than post briefing in the game area.

In the end I feel that the OPs friend has unfortunately fallen foul of a system put in place as a blanket cover to a broad issue that not all players understand the physics of, and the potential insurance issue which could ensue.

 

Sorry for the long post folks.

 

 

[Kls77]

5 minutes ago, concretesnail said:

Just as to add some balance to hat has been said.

 

I appreciate that what has happened with the OP and his friend is never going to feel good but it is a policy that is try to prevent what has happened in the past reoccurring. Which is challenging with such a big site and potential high player count.

 

What I have found at anzio is that chrono stations are available as are a range of weights to test and check that rifs are within limits.

The briefing, although some have moaned that it's too long, does cover the fact that they run spot check and random chrono throughout the day and what failing that results in. Its harsh but like I mentioned before, it's in response to previous incidents.

While joule creep is something that is possible with all the systems we use to play it is much more open to abuse within hpa setups.

It. would be nice to see a clarification on the sites rules as to how they intend to test in the play area for spot checks, that way responsible players can check their setups and tune accordingly, especially if they are genuinely honest and decent hpa users.

 

On a personal note i know I've been there with a freshly built rif post modding and it's been on the bleeding edge of limits and despite passing chrono, I've put it away, knowing that a fail of a spot check means. I also tested a brand new bolt action build which was over limits and staff were fine with me putting it away and using something else, although this is all done before the start of the day at the chrono station rather than post briefing in the game area.

In the end I feel that the OPs friend has unfortunately fallen foul of a system put in place as a blanket cover to a broad issue that not all players understand the physics of, and the potential insurance issue which could ensue.

 

Sorry for the long post folks.

 

 

As mentioned thou we my mate was in limits and passed both times with his chosen BB weight . It was the weight that the marshel/owner had put in that took it over ? 

[concretesnail]

4 minutes ago, Kls77 said:

As mentioned thou we my mate was in limits and passed both times with his chosen BB weight . It was the weight that the marshel/owner had put in that took it over ? 

Its unfortunate that was the case but the joule creep effect can be abused.

If it was me I'd try to tune the system to reduce the effect to mitigate the chances of it happening.

Playing devil's advocate the site owner is trying to find a workable solution that follows the rules set out by the insurers policy, there maybe additional conditions following previous incidents, and something that is reasonably practicable for a site so large.

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

32 minutes ago, concretesnail said:

would be nice to see a clarification on the sites rules as to how they intend to test in the play area for spot checks, that way responsible players can check their setups and tune accordingly, especially if they are genuinely honest and decent hpa users.

 

this is the key thing.

 

if it's not made clear that the standard of chrono that will kick you off site is different to the posted limit, then it's an unfair test.

 

i have no doubt had the op's freind known that they would need to pass on 0.3's rather than the 0.25's they were using then it would have been trivial to set their system up accordingly.

 

37 minutes ago, concretesnail said:

In the end I feel that the OPs friend has unfortunately fallen foul of a system put in place as a blanket cover to a broad issue that not all players understand the physics of, and the potential insurance issue which could ensue.

 

the argument could (and imo should) be made that whilst players might have no need of understanding how different pews work, the marshalling staff absolutely should know.

 

it's not like the information is massively complicated either, you just need to be sure you're chrono'ing on the players weight when looking at gbb's, hpa's and basr's as using heavier they can creep up and if using lower they'll creep down. that's it written in one line....

[Kls77]

But the marshel / owner gave a ruling then changed it to suite his bb? 

The farest way would have he had problem with my mates gun was to chrono all his mags to see that he was running the same weight and FPS ?  Not chuck a heavier BB in to say it's over ? 

I am not arguing about site rules etc . It was all explained in briefing etc . But my mate did it all according to them rules .. 

Tbh it's a lesson learned . I have been to a site where they chrono my DMr on .2 and they said I can turn it up as running lo . And I have told them it's set for .45 and is at limit for joules ? Difernet rules for diferent sites ... 

 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

10 hours ago, EvilMonkee said:

This is the bit that annoys me It is the responsibility of the players to chronograph their gun before the airsoft day starts, Chrono Stations are provided on all sites.

 

So chrono isn't compulsory but they fuck you immediately if you fail a random check.

 

And again I find myself in full agreement with that policy.

 

However, they need to be crystal clear what the testing methodology is.

 

 

12 hours ago, Kls77 said:

But mates  hpa was set to no more than 328 ( there rules )on .2

 

Yup, that's what their written policy says.  It clearly doesn't match the reality, and it's daft for them to even mention 0.2g in CURRENT_YEAR, but sadly they've still got that 350 / 400 / 500fps mindset.

 

It's also unnecessarily confusing, as what they actually mean is that there's a hard 1J limit on HPA guns.  Knowing that, and that they might drop in any weight of BB, I'd be setting up to be comfortably under 1J on a 0.4g (with the hop set for 0.25g).  If that makes HPA uncompetitive, then perhaps that's actually the tacit intent of the site policy.

 

 

2 hours ago, concretesnail said:

What I have found at anzio is that chrono stations are available as are a range of weights to test and check that rifs are within limits.

 

Now, that's interesting and sensible, but contradicts their published policy.  OP, was that your experience?  Were heavier site BBs available at chrono?  Was there any hint given that they might test with heavier BBs?

 

I find myself in the peculiar position of actually agreeing with what they do, but sighing and tutting at what they say.  It does rather feel like the site owner enjoys the thrill of catching people out.

 

[concretesnail]

The range of weights at anzio is fairly normal and has been for while but the website rules list could be written to cover all the site they run, as a starting point. As they have quite a few sites I'd expect there to be site specific adjustments, though I couldn't say for sure as the only site run by F&O I've played, within the last few years, is anzio.

[Kls77]

They just asked what BB was running and chrono with that at first chrono test . They then tagged and locked off his regulator saying all ok ? 

Didn't see any other BBS there to chrono with tbh . I took a empty mag and full mag with desired BBS using that day and they just used that one . 

 

[Stratton Oakmont]

As an ex hpa user I’d just ban them for the same reason a lot of sites won’t allow dmr’s, people using them are generally at fault. Either over exited trigger fingers (dmr)  or ridiculous amounts of joule creep (be it known or just ignorance). If your gun joule creeps above the limit with any of the bbs used on the field then your dwell/reg is to high for the lower bb weight you are using anyway and you are over voluming unnecessarily (or not and your intention is to actually joule creep).

in your friends case whilst I can’t say it was a fair one on Anzio I would be suspicious of all hpa users as it’s the easiest system to abuse.

if your gbb is fine in the cold morning but needs  red gas to reach an acceptable power limit, guess what happens when the weather warms up. 

Anzio tried this with my green gas powered mws, afternoon warmed up and my .28 joule creep was around equivalent of 343 on .2 on their mobile chrono so they warned me i would be kicked off there and then

They made me chrono with .2 and it was 290 

Neither was going to get me into trouble as any heavier bbs just dropped in joules as it’s a standard set up but it gave me a start that my stock Tm on green gas might fail

[Rogerborg]

35 minutes ago, concretesnail said:

The range of weights at anzio is fairly normal and has been for while

 

I don't know what this statement means.  Is that referring to the BBs that are made available at the chrono?  I ask...

 

 

28 minutes ago, Kls77 said:

Didn't see any other BBS there to chrono with tbh

 

... because of that.

 

If they're going to have a zero-tolerance policy towards guns (something I actually agree with, especially for HPA), they should apply a similar high standard to their own communication and pre-game testing.  That's if the goal is to actually keep everything below their limits, rather than to have the thrill of shouting "Hah, gotchya!" and punting punters.

[Kls77]

32 minutes ago, Stratton Oakmont said:

As an ex hpa user I’d just ban them for the same reason a lot of sites won’t allow dmr’s, people using them are generally at fault. Either over exited trigger fingers (dmr)  or ridiculous amounts of joule creep (be it known or just ignorance). If your gun joule creeps above the limit with any of the bbs used on the field then your dwell/reg is to high for the lower bb weight you are using anyway and you are over voluming unnecessarily (or not and your intention is to actually joule creep).

in your friends case whilst I can’t say it was a fair one on Anzio I would be suspicious of all hpa users as it’s the easiest system to abuse.

if your gbb is fine in the cold morning but needs  red gas to reach an acceptable power limit, guess what happens when the weather warms up. 

Anzio tried this with my green gas powered mws, afternoon warmed up and my .28 joule creep was around equivalent of 343 on .2 on their mobile chrono so they warned me i would be kicked off there and then

They made me chrono with .2 and it was 290 

Neither was going to get me into trouble as any heavier bbs just dropped in joules as it’s a standard set up but it gave me a start that my stock Tm on green gas might fail

Yes point is there on alot of things . But I am not getting at the joule creep malarky 

I am getting at that was in there limits for .25 which he was using both times he was tested. So why be kicked off for joule creep on the heavy bb which he want using ??

 

If ur mws had gone over by that 1fps then u would have be kicked .. and u would have felt the same . 

 

 

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

25 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

If they're going to have a zero-tolerance policy towards guns (something I actually agree with, especially for HPA), they should apply a similar high standard to their own communication and pre-game testing.  That's if the goal is to actually keep everything below their limits, rather than to have the thrill of shouting "Hah, gotchya!" and punting punters.

 

absolutely this, if it was made crystal clear that the field-standard was on .3's and ammo was provided at morning chrono then i absolutely agree, and would have recommended the op's friend set their gun accordingly using the heavier of either the test weight or their intended play weight. wether or not that's a fair ruleset in general is a matter for debate but if that's the rules of the site then that's what you have to work to.

 

like you, i applaud having a zero tolerance policy when it comes to chrono, however if you're going to enforce a rule then you'd better have it well founded in knowledge of how different systems operate and well communicated to the players.

[Stratton Oakmont]

27 minutes ago, Kls77 said:

Yes point is there on alot of things . But I am not getting at the joule creep malarky 

I am getting at that was in there limits for .25 which he was using both times he was tested. So why be kicked off for joule creep on the heavy bb which he want using ??

 

If ur mws had gone over by that 1fps then u would have be kicked .. and u would have felt the same . 

 

 

 

 

In would but it would have been my fault 

[EvilMonkee]

The just punting paying customers off site with no chance to switch to an alternate gun is just shite.

[Adolf Hamster]

8 minutes ago, Stratton Oakmont said:

In would but it would have been my fault 

 

If you'd passed on green gas, then been booted off because the marshall at the spot check put black gas in your gun would you feel it was your fault?

[concretesnail]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I don't know what this statement means.  Is that referring to the BBs that are made available at the chrono? .

Yes, i did mean they have had a range of bb weights at the chrono station. Sorry, i should of been more clear.

[Rogerborg]

33 minutes ago, EvilMonkee said:

The just punting paying customers off site with no chance to switch to an alternate gun is just shite.

 

Is it though?  If the only penalty for running hot is that you might sometimes have to switch to something else, then it's not much of deterrent.

[Tackle]

Unless someone is caught with a ridiculous variance in power differing from the "start of the day chrono", & assuming the tag or tie fitted by the marshals is still intact, players should be given the option to switch to an aeg platform, & if they haven't brought their own, maybe a rental offered for a small additional fee. 

Would surely be an option that benefits everyone ? 

36 minutes ago, EvilMonkee said:

The just punting paying customers off site with no chance to switch to an alternate gun is just shite.

Posted before I saw your post, spot on👍

[Rogerborg]

3 minutes ago, Tackle said:

a ridiculous variance

 

How much is too much?

 

My real objection is to this use of the word "variance" at all.  The gun is either over a limit, or it's not.  Once you start saying "yeah, it's over the limit, but it's only 10% over" then you've just upped your  actual limit by 10%.  Now, how much can it be over that new limit before you punt it?

[Tackle]

3 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Is it though?  If the only penalty for running hot is that you might sometimes have to switch to something else, then it's not much of deterrent.

If platforms such as HPA & some gbbr are subject to variable joule creep, I'd much rather save the day with an aeg backup than potentially drive long distances home while spitting feathers & vowing to destroy the site verbally online etc

Just now, Rogerborg said:

 

How much is too much?

 

My real objection is to this use of the word "variance" at all.  The gun is either over a limit, or it's not.  Once you start saying "yeah, it's over the limit, but it's only 10% over" then you've just upped your  actual limit by 10%.  Now, how much can it be over that new limit before you punt it?

Bugger knows, & clearly this site understands it less than me lol, but if an incident doesn't scream wholesale cheating, then surely a stern warning, coupled with an alternative option to continue playing is better than their current set up. 

[Rogerborg]

1 minute ago, Tackle said:

If platforms such as HPA & some gbbr are subject to variable joule creep, I'd much rather save the day with an aeg backup

 

Oh, I'd prefer that too, as a player.  However, as a site, if players can just shrug and say "OK, I'll put it back in the car and get my CYMA" then why would they care what their gas guns are creeping up to?

 

What I'd really want is some clarity and consistency, regarding what I'd be tested with, and what the consequences would be.

 

Hmm, I wonder what Anzio would do if a player voluntarily approached marshals to ask to be re-chronoed in-game, and came out over. 🤔

[Tommikka]

Chrono rules should be clear, and the penalty should be fair

 

Zero tolerance is a problem area, especially in this case where the zero tolerance was for a BB that was not in use by the player, and there is no apparent sneakyness of the player to use the offending BB

Shouldn’t the owner have gone home as they had the offending BBs?

 

 

The end goal is that players fire BBs within a set limit.  If the rules are for any of a number of sizes then the site should be testing at all sizes.

 

In paintball a number of years ago we created a set of rules for the mix of HPA and CO2 use.

The legal energy limit in foot pounds or joules translates to a velocity of a little over 300fps.

As an industry the common limit is 280fps, but at competitive tournaments 300fps is permitted.

 

Under a Scenario common rule set we defined the rules as:

Standard Chrono Limits
280 FPS for markers running on HPA. Minimum of three shots over the chrono with all three shots registering below the limit.
250 FPS for markers running on CO2. Minimum of three shots over the chrono with all three shots registering below the limit.
250 FPS for games run exclusively indoors.

 

The lower CO2 limit was to allow for spiking.  Chrono from a steady state at 250 and a spike may occur within 280

If I spot checked a CO2 player at 260 etc then I would allow that for a spike - but I would still require a pause and rechrono - if the 3 shots were not with 250 then it’s back to the safe zone for sorting out.

Players we’re also advised to keep checking throughout the day, and I’d have my eye out to pick on players as the day warmed.

 

Going to the chrono station has full tolerance - that’s where checking and adjusting should take place.

But if you spot me in game walking towards you with a chrono and you sprint back to the chrono station then I’m not tolerant 

 

 

[Stratton Oakmont]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

If you'd passed on green gas, then been booted off because the marshall at the spot check put black gas in your gun would you feel it was your fault?

So let’s just look at that comment.

if a marshal changes the power of my rif I’m to blame???

I would not expect my hpa settings to be changed by a marshal nor a spring changed in my aeg. The power my rif is capable of is my responsibility. I can set it to any power level on any given bb weight and it’s my fault if it fails.

only excuse is buying an overpowered rif from a retailer.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Just now, Stratton Oakmont said:

So let’s just look at that comment.

if a marshal changes the power of my rif I’m to blame???

 

yes, that was the point....

 

you seemed to be arguing that the op was at fault for having a pew that would read hot when tested under different conditions to those it was being used in-game, unless i've misread your intent?