Poacher Turned Gamekeeper

[Enid_Puceflange]

Having only played Airsoft for 3 years now, I have slipped back into Marshalling and quite enjoy it, I am doing this at my local site, which I started playing Paintball at almost exactly 30 years ago!!
Do any of you Marshall and find it difficult to get a Sunday to just play? We have a core of refs, which means we are relied upon every Sunday to run the day. My only option is to play at a site over an hours drive away that runs games on a Sat (my site is 10 mins from home)

interested to hear how other Player/Marshall’s tear themselves between the two sides of the game 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Enid_Puceflange

[alxndrhll]

Marshalling is ultimately taking your hobby and turning it into a job (though it's rarely treated like that, more on that later), that's a pretty hard thing to reverse. Many of the, what I'd consider, good marshalls I've known across the years are of the opinion that it's very much a case of you're a marshall or you're a player when it comes to a site. Trying to juggle the two just never really works out. The point at which they've transitioned to becoming a marshall rather than a player was when they've felt the games at said site started to grow stale, but they still wanted to be involved with the social side. Whenever they've decided they want to play they'd go to a different site, often turning into a bit of an 'away day' for the regulars.

 

(This paragraph is a tangent) I personally loathe the whole player marshall thing, where you're not actually an employee of the company/individuals running a site, you're just a pal/regular that gets a handful of benefits for helping out. I couldn't give you any specifics as to why, outside of niche things like players whipping a hi-vis out of a dump pouch the moment things get spicy, granted that's the person not 'the role'. I just think marshalls should be a more official thing where they have applied for a vacancy, been interviewed, given the position because they were the right fit for the job and paid accordingly for their services.

 

I don't have any first hand experience of marshalling, this hobby is one of the few things in my life where I don't carry responsibility for others (outside of abiding rules for others safety) and I'd like to keep it that way, but my thoughts align with the sentiments of folks with experience as stated above. Depends on how you think you can juggle it, but I dare say you've got some commutes in your future if you want to keep the game as more of a hobby than a job.

[ImTriggerHappy]

57 minutes ago, alxndrhll said:

Marshalling is ultimately taking your hobby and turning it into a job (though it's rarely treated like that, more on that later), that's a pretty hard thing to reverse. Many of the, what I'd consider, good marshalls I've known across the years are of the opinion that it's very much a case of you're a marshall or you're a player when it comes to a site. Trying to juggle the two just never really works out. The point at which they've transitioned to becoming a marshall rather than a player was when they've felt the games at said site started to grow stale, but they still wanted to be involved with the social side. Whenever they've decided they want to play they'd go to a different site, often turning into a bit of an 'away day' for the regulars.

 

(This paragraph is a tangent) I personally loathe the whole player marshall thing, where you're not actually an employee of the company/individuals running a site, you're just a pal/regular that gets a handful of benefits for helping out. I couldn't give you any specifics as to why, outside of niche things like players whipping a hi-vis out of a dump pouch the moment things get spicy, granted that's the person not 'the role'. I just think marshalls should be a more official thing where they have applied for a vacancy, been interviewed, given the position because they were the right fit for the job and paid accordingly for their services.

 

I don't have any first hand experience of marshalling, this hobby is one of the few things in my life where I don't carry responsibility for others (outside of abiding rules for others safety) and I'd like to keep it that way, but my thoughts align with the sentiments of folks with experience as stated above. Depends on how you think you can juggle it, but I dare say you've got some commutes in your future if you want to keep the game as more of a hobby than a job.

 

Player marshals can be a good thing but finding good ones isn't easy. They can't just be a mate they have to an employee and held to the standard of marshal first.

 

A strict set of rules regarding how to deal with things to prevent people trying to abuse the role and the understanding you are in game to help propel things and keep them fair for others not for yourself is a must.

 

 

[Tackle]

I often used to be a player/marshall for one of my teammates chain of sites, as did most of my teammates (but not all)

why ?, as a team we were generally known for high levels of fair play, so it kinda made sense that we were asked to "quietly" police gameplay to ensure harmony.

Essentially the site organiser would ask us to discretely support his paid hi-viz clad staff, during the safety briefing he would inform the punters that there were player marshals undercover within the teams who would only identify themselves if absolutely necessary, & generally this worked very well, players who may have been tempted to bend the rules because there was no hi-viz in sight had to consider who else was watching.

how did we approach it ?, mostly it was the occasional honesty shot in the butt for anyone pointed out to us, sometimes people mildly kicking off were told to head back to the safe zone for 15 mins to hydrate & calm down, on the understanding that another episode would result in a half or full day break, or lifetime ban for the extreme cases (obviously this would be confirmed by the paid staff & was a rare occurrence).

we had one teammate who at times was at times unpredictable in his playing style & attitude, partly due to issues in his home life, needless to say he was never asked to fill the role.

 

in return, we got free game days, & they were usually very enjoyable, if you expect fair & honest gameplay, how better than to be quietly ensuring it's happening 👍

 

[Druid799]

I was a player-marshal on Sunday just gone , the way my home site does it the P-M’s are either site staff who aren’t working that day , or if there’s still not enough then they’ll ask any marshals from other sites who’ve come to play that day or older more well known regulars who the bosses have some faith in (yes Tackle I know in that case how’d I get the gig !🤣) and any thing thats flagged has to go through one of the game marshals to be escalated to what ever’s needed for the infraction .

[Tommikka]

I dislike the principle of player marshals - sites should be fielding the appropriate number of marshals

(which generally means having staff on zero hour contracts called in for the number of bookings)

 

 

There are a few duties of the marshal, only one of which is veering to the referee:

1) Safety

2) Customer enjoyment 

3) Game management

4) Rule enforcement 

2 & 3 are the functions that ‘marshals’ should lead on with 1 being the overriding factor when required 

4 is a minor element for marshals after the other 3

 

I can’t remember the ratios, but there are defined numbers in paintball recommended by the UKPSF (and therefore also by insurers) for the number of marshals vs number of players .  This ratio varies by type of player (rental, experienced regular own gunner, etc) and needs to be adjusted for site & zone specifics on how they can oversee the players.

 

For roles 2 & 3 the marshal number could be as low as 2 per group (one per side)

For role 1 it depends on the type of site/zone, the risks, what oversight they have and how quickly they can intervene and act on a safety need

 

Role 4 on rule enforcement is an entirely different matter.  In paintball it can be low due to the marking of the splat and mostly done at a distance with oversight.  In a competition it becomes the matter that you get up to a 1:1 ratio with eyes on every player.

In airsoft it’s a different matter - if just a rental group then you can let things slide a little for the ‘good day out’ fun factor and happy customers. It’s not critical that a gentle hit didn’t get noticed or a player is ignoring hits - then focus on the problems

If a regular crowd then it should become the norm that people play fairly - or alternatively play equally unfairly and create a toxic site 

If mixed between rentals, regulars, occasionals then it’s difficult - getting the right balance of marshals to players with a fair level of refereeing in their duty.

 

Player marshals might be a compromise, but if there’s a problem that can be toxic, even if done well the toxic cheat will push the issue back as favouritism

 

Ive put in site staff and team members as a ‘playing’ role, or marshals also acting as a playing character. A couple

of times using them in an undercover manner - they appear to be normal paying customers in the safe zone and at the start, but then during the game slip into their role.

(Not a player that marshals / referees)

But these shouldn’t be a player in the normal sense, they should be ‘playing’ to push the game storyline, and keeping marshalling and their game role separate.

 

If someone on your side isn’t taking their hits etc then you should say something, but not assume authority.

[Tackle]

Marshals in general can be a very mixed bag, over the years I've definitely had more bad experiences than good (as a player), for example, csw was an awesome site in almost every aspect, BUT there was a group of marshals that would clump together chatting shit for the morning session, which obviously meant they were virtually ineffective for that time.

 

I've seen paid marshals that are lazy & cant be arsed, some that are scared to confront problem players, corrupt marshals that change the scenario rules mid game to benefit their mates or the teflon home team, "nazi" marshals on a power trip that get so involved unnecessarily that it screws up play, the list just goes on & on, unfortunately when it comes to players who knowingly cheat etc, they will exploit these obvious weaknesses, it's a vicious circle, the customers who have a shit experience usually vow to not go back, & the site gets a bad reputation so the "owners" lose a shitload of revenue, sometimes unfairly if they're unaware of the issues.

 

unfortunately, marshals, paid or otherwise, are just like employees in any other job, some employees can be trusted to do their very best for their employers/clients, & others not, especially when out of sight & with no discernible end product.

 

 

 

[Druid799]

7 hours ago, Tommikka said:

I dislike the principle of player marshals - sites should be fielding the appropriate number of marshals

getting the right balance of marshals to players with a fair level of refereeing in their duty.

 

Player marshals might be a compromise, but if there’s a problem that can be toxic, even if done well the toxic cheat will push the issue back as favouritism

 

Ive put in site staff and team members as a ‘playing’ role, or marshals also acting as a playing character. A couple

of times using them in an undercover manner 

 

If someone on your side isn’t taking their hits etc then you should say something, but not assume authority.

Can’t speak for other sites but my home site the player marshals are in addition to the ‘proper’ marshals and not subsidising there numbers , not there to control or police the game more than anything we work as a visible extra sets of eyes on the field (PM’s all wear a yellow armband for ID)obviously we can step in if the situation needs it (aggressive players , dangerous gameplay , etc) but on the whole we just feed info back to the ‘hi-vis shirts’ of anything we think they need to know . Sort of like the PCSO’s of Airsoft ! 😉
Yes do accept the fact you could get an environment of ‘them and us’ developing but ultimately your dealing with people taking part in a combat themed hobby that’s quite secretive and insular but also frequently has bursts of high adrenaline gameplay as part of it AND it is does have a much higher testosterone fueled atmosphere to it than a lot of other hobbies so you are going to get larger numbers of people working at these sites that have over inflated opinions of them selves so can be prone to going off on a bit of a power trip or just haven’t got very good people skills and do seem to congregate in clumps on the game field ? 
Never been a great fan of the ‘secret marshal’ idea my self , I feel there less of a deterrent to rule breaking than visible player marshals are . 👍
 

[Rogerborg]

I just saw a site on Facebook having recruitment days for marshals.  Full training, "level 3 first aid training", and earn £70 a day plus possible performance related bonuses.

 

It was very tempting to reply with: "Do you want to earn less than a living wage with no guaranteed hours, no job security, no benefits or holidays, all in return for wishing you'd rather be playing while getting earfuls of abuse and moaning off of angry punters for things that other people did?"

 

God bless marshals though, I can't imagine how anyone can stand us. I mean, it.

[Tackle]

21 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

I just saw a site on Facebook having recruitment days for marshals.  Full training, "level 3 fair aid training", and earn £70 a day plus possible performance related bonuses.

 

It was very tempting to reply with: "Do you want to earn less than a living wage with no guaranteed hours, no job security, no benefits or holidays, all in return for wishing you'd rather be playing while getting earfuls of abuse and moaning off of angry punters for things that other people did?"

 

God bless marshals though, I can't imagine how anyone can stand us. I mean, it.

Welcome back mate, we've missed you

23 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

plus possible performance related bonuses.

Id like to see how they're gonna measure that ?

[Rogerborg]

mised u 2 babes

 

(Sorry, too much time on Failbook...)

 

23 minutes ago, Tackle said:

Id like to see how they're gonna measure [performance related bonuses]?

 

Amount of disposable pyro sold on the field?

 

"Yeah, the first smoke is free.  You liked that?  Now it'll cost you..."

[clumpyedge]

I used to Marshal, decided to sack it off. Spend enough of my time during a working week dealing with idiots and spent even more time doing it every other Sunday. Sucked the fun right out of playing and since Covid I think I've played twice in a year and a half. Do I miss it... to an extent yes, do I miss working as a marshal...absolutely not.

[Enid_Puceflange]

Yeah,

the fun is slowly starting to dilute away for me, quite simply as the attitude is…….

”you can’t play next week as you are marshalling next weekend”

A lack of possible candidates to train up to marshal to replace to core team means we have no prospect of playing.

A bit pish and I have 2 new  guns to field 😈

Edited July 7, 2021 by Enid_Puceflange

[Rogerborg]

Sorry to hear that. I've often wondered what the score is with getting out of marshalling once you've been suckered into it.

 

I know some sites pay, and some just offer free game days (if you ever get to use them), but at some point HMRC is going to come sniffing around insisting that everyone who is asked to show up gets paid for it, as they've already done with shoot beaters and pickers.

[Jaylordofwaargh]

This is where we begin to get to the bones of it. How much would you marshal for? If you are marshalling for game days, how many games have you played under this arangement? 

 

Then we hit the financials of the hobby. Rent will be your biggest monthly expense, and staff, should be your next. My thoughts, marshals should be paid, should have 'training' (although what this means i am not sure) and should get a weekend of every month to go play. 

[Rogerborg]

It's a tricky one.  Given the propensity of airsofters to clump around objectives, I'd suggest that the number of marshals needs to scale more with the site topography and objectives, not the number of players.

 

In English, you need fewer marshals-per-player when you have more players.  Which makes getting a site up and running tricky and expensive.

 

This is off the top of my dome, I could be completely wrong about that.

 

What I am sure about is that I'd rather have fewer, better marshals around than a mob of shruggers, phone twiddlers, or gingers.

[BigStew]

7 hours ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

This is where we begin to get to the bones of it. How much would you marshal for? If you are marshalling for game days, how many games have you played under this arangement? 

 

Then we hit the financials of the hobby. Rent will be your biggest monthly expense, and staff, should be your next. My thoughts, marshals should be paid, should have 'training' (although what this means i am not sure) and should get a weekend of every month to go play. 

We basically do it for petrol/ BB money and for the love of the site, wanting everyone to have a good day, pride in seeing happy knackered faces at the end of the day. There very few sites that could actually afford to pay  even a small marshal team minimum wage. If sites had all the things airsofter wanted you would be paying £80 to £100 for a game day. Airsoft sites are a Twilight industry no one in charge wants them around and most of them don't make enough money to be run 100% legit.

 

[Enid_Puceflange]

I agree with what BigStew has said above

The best payment is satisfaction that a day has been run smoothly and we the players have had a great day , chopping and changing games to keep the regulars on their toes is also good fun. 
But pride in the site and making it as best we can satisfies me

We do get free game days etc, but getting to play is a fantasy just now 😂

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

16 minutes ago, Enid_Puceflange said:

I agree with what BigStew has said above

The best payment is satisfaction that a day has been run smoothly and we the players have had a great day , chopping and changing games to keep the regulars on their toes is also good fun. 
But pride in the site and making it as best we can satisfies me

We do get free game days etc, but getting to play is a fantasy just now 😂

 

It sounds like you're being taken for a ride tbh. Volunteering for warm fuzzy feels, but you're not allowed to play when you want? That's called a job, with less paperwork - I'm happy you're happy, but I wouldn't want to _volunteer_ for someone who takes that for granted.

[Enid_Puceflange]

I think I’m just glad to be getting out of the house one day a week for the bants and hanging around with likeminded goons who like to show off their new pewpews 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Enid_Puceflange

[EDcase]

Do you guys take a pew into games to occasionally do hit tests?  

[Enid_Puceflange]

Yes, 

At least one of us will have a rif to test shot anyone we suspect isn’t being gentlemanly with the rules. 
One lad two weeks ago ignored 3 shots I put in at him 🤬

[colinjallen]

After playing for several years, I spent a few years marshalling at a couple of sites, although not concurrently.

The first one was unpaid, not even petrol money, but my two lads got to play for free; I was the pyro marshal (I have a bit of professional history with explosives), so had great fun blowing chunks out of earth mounds, old cars, ponds, the general landscape and, on one occasion, a structure (oops!).  All of the marshals thought nobody was getting paid until we found out that the chief marshal was getting £250 per day.  By then, my eldest son was also marshalling; we resigned at the end of a day which had started badly and got worse after a row with the site owner.  The chief marshal was sacked for supporting me and another marshal resigned in solidarity.

Not long after that, the marshal who had resigned in solidarity and I started playing at another site where, after a year or two, we both got roped into marshalling on the basis that my younger son could play for free (his older brother had given up airsoft as he now had real rifles to play with) as could his son.  However, we soon realised that the guy running the site was a bit of an arse and that most of the other marshals were a waste of space; the best run day was the occasion when the two of us were the only marshals on the site.  We quit and went back to playing at the site.

Since then, two site owners have asked me to marshal; I have learned my lesson so politely turned them down.

Marshals are essential to airsoft; however, too many sites abuse their goodwill.

Edited July 8, 2021 by colinjallen