Overpowered Ghillies ? Your Thoughts

[Hami]

Played Saturday afternoon and the armbands used for the teams were either neon orange or neon green, everyone can agree these'll give away your position  regardless of what color you are.

Now the ghillie on the other team had decided to put his on his ankle where it's barely visible due to his trousers covering it, even when marshals told him to put it on his arm... he didnt.

 

Is it fair to allow this? i get your going for utmost stealth but surely this is taking the piss a bit 

 

what are your thoughts on all these walking bushes that are gaining popularity exponentially these last few years? thanks to the youtube sensations no doubt. 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

tbh if they're not doing something to make it obvious they're on my team they're getting shot, and if they complain they've only got themselves to blame.

 

kind of ironic really considering a lot of the ghillies you see are either totally mis-matched for the terrain and stick out like a sore thumb, or the wearer is trying to speed-soft with a bolt action to the point they plainly don't care about stealth to begin with.

[alxndrhll]

As touched on by @Adolf Hamster movement/understanding of your environment is far more ‘overpowered’ (fuck me do I hate that term) than any form of camouflage.

 

As for the armbands thing, they don’t exist to give people’s position away they exist as a means of distinguishing which team your on. If you choose to make that information less obvious, then you can’t complain if the lack of it gets you nailed by someone on your team.

 

TLDR - Ghillie/leaf suits are just another variant of costume, if they’re working for the user then it’s because the user knows what they’re doing... and they could get much the same result without wearing one.

 

Edit: This is a reply from someone that uses ghillie/leaf suits and is absolutely not someone that knows how to use them.

[Tommikka]

21 minutes ago, Hamisakim said:

 the ghillie on the other team had decided to put his on his ankle where it's barely visible due to his trousers covering it, even when marshals told him to put it on his arm... he didnt.

 

Is it fair to allow this? i get your going for utmost stealth but surely this is taking the piss a bit 

 

 

He was cheating - and deliberately continuing to cheat once told to wear his armband properly.

 

If he had any sniper ability he would have been able to wear a visible armband on his arm and minimise it’s sight to the opposition - by angle of view etc

 

Any player who wants to wear their colour in a particular way (for example on the back of their goggle strap ‘to avoid friendly fire from behind’ is welcome to wear an extra one

 

 

[Hatchet]

They can give your position away (if nothing on the rest of your kit has), but that's just part and parcel of it. Gaming the system by putting them on your ankle/chest/belt in order to gain an advantage is against the spirit of it, because you're essentially trying to either hide your position, or buy some more time when someone spots you and tries to work out which team you're on.

 

Having it on your ankle when the marshal has told you not to is just breaking the rules rather than bending them.

[Tommikka]

I used to often wear a particular pair of desert DPM trousers, and they could be accompanied by a woodland DPM shirt, woodland DPM wife beater  or random T shirt etc

 

I was told many times that I’m going to be easily spotted with desert legs due to bad camouflage  - I’m just wearing them because they are comfortable 

Then on occasion I’d be told that I was right with my mixed camouflage as my

legs would disappear in dry grass, or on dusty soil and my torso disappeared against background tree lines - No, still just comfortable in my favourite desert trousers and pasty white arms.

I was ‘camouflaged’ by slow movement, using barriers, grass, trees up ahead to obstruct views and letting other people run around attracting attention. 

 

 

[Shamal]

At National Airsoft Event colours had to be displayed on both arms. Many players pulled up for putting them on legs or wrapped around vest/ rigs. Armbands also displayed your player number.

Regards 

[Impulse]

If it's the site rules to put the band on your arm, you put it on your arm. It's not even hard to stay hidden and if you can't remain undetected with a small band around your arm, you're doing the whole ghillie suit sniper thing wrong. Most airsofters won't see you as long as you stay still, don't silhouette yourself and aren't dressed in some sort of flourescent onesie; managed it with a solid black fleece last weekend.

 

You're totally right though. My local site has started balancing out the snipers at the start of the day to stop one team having too many and getting absolutely stomped as they're becoming more and more common. However, good ghillies are still fairly uncommon; as has already been said, most people use leaf suits that just don't blend into their environment and have no idea how to actually stay hidden, silouetting themselves against trees or barricades and moving all the time.

 

So I don't think it's OP, but I do think it makes the game a lot harder as most games require you to take objectives and doing that with a boltie is... hard.

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, alxndrhll said:

As touched on by @Adolf Hamster movement/understanding of your environment is far more ‘overpowered’ (fuck me do I hate that term) than any form of camouflage.

 

 

Absolutely this.

 

I make no claim to be any kind of master of stealth. But i've seen (or more correctly not seen) what someone with a few skill points in the sneak tree can acheive wearing plain olive.

 

Camo is unnessecary if you're not where the other guy is looking.

[Greg147]

Unless it's done exceptionally well, I haven't really experienced ghillie suits having a positive impact on players I'm facing. If anything I've noticed they seem to give the wearer a false sense of confidence in their sneaking abilities. Last game day I placed, I had a chap who just kept coming back to the same spot, over and over, in his ghillie suit, as over and over I would immediately shoot him out. I'm not sure if he thought I wouldn't spot him each time, but when most of the terrain is brown due to tree bark and mud, a bit of mishmashed foliage isn't going to stop the movement of a human sized figure from standing out 😆

 

As for the armband issue; I look for my teams armband on the arm it's supposed to be on. If there's not a red one on their left arm, I'll assume they've got a blue one on their right. It's happened before to me with a guy who hid his armband under a layer of ghillie camouflage, and then lay in a bush facing our team. He was unhappy when I shot him. 

[alxndrhll]

It’s entirely possible I’m just awful at implementing the suit for it to be beneficial, but using a bolt action combined with some form of ghillie/leaf suit felt really counter intuitive to me after a few days playing with it.

 

Bolt actions inherently cause an increase in movement, and even when you have a range advantage it’s not often many of your engagements fall outside of the usual 50/60m range. At which point that repeated movement you have to make to rack the bolt is very much noticeable. Though I imagine it’s much less of ‘a thing’ if you’re running a light spring with a weighted piston, or have HPA’d your bolt action.

 

My most successful days out dressed up as a bush (with regard to ‘effective concealment’) have been when running HPA’d AR with a suppressor. All the benefits of a well tuned/quietened bolt action with none of the draw backs. Granted, playing with an MED is something that definitely started to grate on me and is the primary reason I found myself returning to old HPA habits.

 

Obviously entirely depends on what you’re going for, if you want that full immersion of being a ‘sniper’ then more power to you. Just noting my anecdotes having gone from HPA plus a viper hood, through to full suit with a bolt action, and eventually looping back round to where I started.

[Impulse]

15 minutes ago, alxndrhll said:

My most successful days out dressed up as a bush have been when running HPA’d AR with a suppressor. All the benefits of a well tuned/quietened bolt action with none of the draw backs. Granted, playing with an MED is something that definitely started to grate on me and is the primary reason I found myself returning to old HPA habits.

 

Honestly, with hop ups how they are now, bolt actions are really not as good as they used to be in relative terms. Well tuned AEGs are reaching out to the same sort of ranges as a well-tuned bolt action.

 

You can still pull the bolt without people noticing, but you do need a lighter pull or a gas/HPA rifle. I've converted my VSR to HPA and I love it as I can do the bolt pull with a single finger if needed, and it's a lot quieter than the already quiet spring powered bolties, so you can make shots when enemies are closer to your position without getting detected. I don't think sound or me pulling the bolt back has ever been the reason I've been seen since I moved to HPA, but I don't think me pulling the bolt has ever caused me to be detected even when using a spring VSR. When I can afford it, I'm shoving a Polarstar engine in my spare m14 and using that as my primary "sniper" rifle. No MED (as I'll be keeping it at 1.1J), similar range, semi-automatic fire rate? All combined with the near silence of a HPA rifle and the sleek look of an m21? Sign me up!

[Hami]

The guys in question were using quiet HPA set ups. I only played afternoon and around 3/4pm the low light definitely gave them advantage. next time I'll make sure they don't hide armbands 

[alxndrhll]

17 minutes ago, Impulse said:

 

Honestly, with hop ups how they are now, bolt actions are really not as good as they used to be in relative terms. Well tuned AEGs are reaching out to the same sort of ranges as a well-tuned bolt action.

 

You can still pull the bolt without people noticing, but you do need a lighter pull or a gas/HPA rifle. I've converted my VSR to HPA and I love it as I can do the bolt pull with a single finger if needed, and it's a lot quieter than the already quiet spring powered bolties, so you can make shots when enemies are closer to your position without getting detected. I don't think sound or me pulling the bolt back has ever been the reason I've been seen since I moved to HPA, but I don't think me pulling the bolt has ever caused me to be detected even when using a spring VSR. When I can afford it, I'm shoving a Polarstar engine in my spare m14 and using that as my primary "sniper" rifle. No MED (as I'll be keeping it at 1.1J), similar range, semi-automatic fire rate? All combined with the near silence of a HPA rifle and the sleek look of an m21? Sign me up!

 

Truthfully I think the sites you’re playing at can ultimately dictate how ‘worthwhile’ using a bolt action is. Most of my bolt action builds have had an effective range of somewhere between 75/85m which is definitely an advantage over ‘normal RIFs’. But I am yet to find a site where I could consistently take advantage of it. You don’t truly realise how irritating nature being in the way can get until you’re only firing one shot at a time with an interval between 😅.

 

I still love using a bolt action, but have definitely come around to it being something I switch to for a few games rather than running for a whole day.

 

3 minutes ago, Hamisakim said:

The guys in question were using quiet HPA set ups. I only played afternoon and around 3/4pm the low light definitely gave them advantage. next time I'll make sure they don't hide armbands 

 

The plot thickens. Truthfully I'm not sure how much of a difference the suit is making here, just sounds like they knew what they were doing in terms of a good spot to be and used the lighting (or lack thereof) to their advantage. You really don't need to be dressed up like a bush to take advantage of poor lighting conditions. Though I do concur with others that if there were explicit instructions that armbands were indeed supposed to go on arms, then that's where they should have been.

 

[Impulse]

16 minutes ago, alxndrhll said:

Truthfully I think the sites you’re playing at can ultimately dictate how ‘worthwhile’ using a bolt action is. Most of my bolt action builds have had an effective range of somewhere between 75/85m which is definitely an advantage over ‘normal RIFs’. But I am yet to find a site where I could consistently take advantage of it. You don’t truly realise how irritating nature being in the way can get until you’re only firing one shot at a time with an interval between 😅.

 

I still love using a bolt action, but have definitely come around to it being something I switch to for a few games rather than running for a whole day.

 

Oh 100%. I love my VSR(s) too much to just hang it up and using a bolt action is way more satisfying, but my issue is my HPA VSR does about the same as your bolt actions of around 75 - 85m effective range, but my 1J AEG m14 can also push 65 - 70m effective range and I find myself wondering if the extra 5 - 10m is really worth the hassle 😂

[MiK]

I think the trend of “LEGBANDS” maybe down to a known YouTube sniper 🤔

[alxndrhll]

4 hours ago, Impulse said:

 

Oh 100%. I love my VSR(s) too much to just hang it up and using a bolt action is way more satisfying, but my issue is my HPA VSR does about the same as your bolt actions of around 75 - 85m effective range, but my 1J AEG m14 can also push 65 - 70m effective range and I find myself wondering if the extra 5 - 10m is really worth the hassle 😂

I guess that’s very much a personal play style thing. When I started off the trip down the bolt action route I always thought I was a fairly passive player, generally happy to sit back and plink away from the rear line. It may well be that I was just more ready to ‘get stuck in’ following not being able to play courtesy of lockdowns but I found I was using my pistol much more than I thought I’d be.

 

But ohh boy do I like having that extra distance on those days where the mind is more willing than the body. And that’s before the considerations of accuracy versus distance etc... but that’s a whole other conversation not particularly suited to this thread.

[CrackCommandoUnit1972]

Not that I read this trash, but here you go:

 

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/can-you-find-camouflaged-sniper-23084370

[RMDavis]

One of my favourite things to do against ghillie/bolt action rifle users (only on skirmish days) 

 

Is on the rare occasion I know where the shot has come from or their hiding place isn't as good as they think...

 

Just bloody run at them full tilt, using cover where possible and engage them when you can.

 

You'll never see more panic on a snipers face when you've gone inside their minimum engagement distance and they haven't got a back up! 😂

[Shamal]

6 hours ago, CrackCommandoUnit1972 said:

Not that I read this trash, but here you go:

 

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/can-you-find-camouflaged-sniper-23084370

Yeah found him in 1min lol 👍

Very good though

Regards 

[clumpyedge]

15 hours ago, Hamisakim said:

Played Saturday afternoon and the armbands used for the teams were either neon orange or neon green, everyone can agree these'll give away your position  regardless of what color you are.

Now the ghillie on the other team had decided to put his on his ankle where it's barely visible due to his trousers covering it, even when marshals told him to put it on his arm... he didnt.

 

Is it fair to allow this? i get your going for utmost stealth but surely this is taking the piss a bit 

 

what are your thoughts on all these walking bushes that are gaining popularity exponentially these last few years? thanks to the youtube sensations no doubt. 

 

 

Was this at battlelakes per chance?

[Cannonfodder]

Sounds to me like the problem was the flesh coloured squishy bit, rather than the use of arm bands. 

 

As others have posted, good field craft is far more effective than whatever camo you're wearing 

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, Shamal said:

Yeah found him in 1min lol 👍

Very good though

Regards 

A thing with all of these types of examples are you know that you are looking for someone in that picture, and you get to have a good detailed scan.  Some may actually think they have seen him straight away and later see the real person.

There’s rarely scale or context - for example this one is ‘bloke has a look for a moment’ as opposed to ‘hidden observation post’.   
 

 

[Skara]

Sniping is 95% using your brain, 5% pulling the trigger.

 

Ghillies help but they're not indispensable, there are much more important skills to master first (proper movement and fieldcraft).

With those two skills, having a bright neon pink band on your arm becomes irrelevant because you are aware of it and know how to conceal it from the enemy (without resorting to borderline cheating like wrapping it around the ankle/gear).

[Tommikka]

13 minutes ago, Skara said:

Sniping is 95% using your brain, 5% pulling the trigger.

 

Ghillies help but they're not indispensable, there are much more important skills to master first (proper movement and fieldcraft).

With those two skills, having a bright neon pink band on your arm becomes irrelevant because you are aware of it and know how to conceal it from the enemy (without resorting to borderline cheating like wrapping it around the ankle/gear).

And true sniping is nothing to do with the trigger - it’s the fieldcraft that makes a sniper