Cunning or Cheating?

[Enid_Puceflange]

So.....

The “Dead Mans Walk”

witnessed it last weekend to great effect, circa 8 players taken out In one game 

player walking nonchalant style towards the opposing team

head down, rifle down, pistol out of holster and pointed towards the ground

when eventually close enough to guarantee some hits, up comes the pistol and pewpewpew 

wasn’t long before an opponent opened up fire 😂

Eliminated players complain of cheating to marshals

 

whats your opinion?

(Sneaky bastard was me by the way)

[strykerles]

I'd say he was being cheeky and seeing if he could get away with it

[alxndrhll]

I'm not sure I'd necessarily class it as either, for the most part I'd personally say it goes against the spirit of the game. But there's an arguement to be made for people in general just not making it clear if they're 'dead' or not. Tends to be a hand in the air for the 3 seconds that they're moving from their position to start to the walk back to a dead zone these days, and that's the point at which whether they're 'dead' or not become immediately unclear. Which is exacerbated by the fact dead folks sure do like to moan when you shoot them, despite them showing no signs they're 'out' for the time being. The easiest way to tell nowadays is 'are the shooting back at me', so I can see why those involved would question what was going on.

[Jedi_Master]

Cheating cunt.  If his pistol is out of the holster he is fair target. Dead man walking has hand raised (or red flag) and weapons out of hands/holstered.

[Enid_Puceflange]

3 minutes ago, Jedi_Master said:

Cheating cunt.  If his pistol is out of the holster he is fair target. Dead man walking has hand raised (or red flag) and weapons out of hands/holstered.

Lol

Interesting, pistol was out

No hand in the air, as that would show as a dead player & out of the game

If the hand was up, and then “dead” player Would indeed be cheating 

We were even taped up with arm bands, so no mistaking the opposition

Funny thing was

the eliminated disgruntled players said “where’d he come from” 😂

[Cyberlawyer]

Personally I totally agree with the players that complained to the Marshals and believe this should be dealt with in the strongest possible terms.

 

Why do I feel so strongly on this issue, Two reasons:

 

First it’s a matter of player safety. If a player is allowed to get away with this behaviour then the only realistic way for the enemy team to react is to treat everyone doing the ‘dead mans walk’ as a live player and open fire. This is going to lead to massive over shooting/over killing on the poor sods who are genuinely ‘dead’ and actually making the slog back to the safe zone/respawn. Yes there is an argument that dead players should have pistols holstered and hand/rifle in the air, but the reality is this only happens until they have withdrawn from the firefight that killed them and is impractical if the terrain is even moderately uneven and the respawn is more than about 50 yards away, particularly on larger sites where there can be multiple engagements between where a player ‘died’ and the respawn.

 

Secondly, it is completely unrealistic and against the spirit of the game in an honesty based system that is intended to mimic engagements with firearms. It is not being clever or sneaky it is just as dishonest as players who don’t take their hits, in fact more so as there is no possible argument that the offending player may not have felt a BB at the end of its range that hits a bit of gear. It is straight out gaming the mechanics of the system.

[Shamal]

Hi @Enid_Puceflange

I have to say I think you committed airsoft suicide there fella. Left your flanks wide open to attack.😕

[Enid_Puceflange]

@Cyberlawyer

Nicely put across, and you didn’t even need to drop the “C” bomb

[Tackle]

This is a 50/50, in some circumstances it's ok, but in some it's shady as fuck.

I've done it, BUT it was a night game, I'd gotten in to the large enemy encampment & casually strolling around in the darkness as if I was meant to be there was the only way to access the HQ building (& blow it up lol), game over & everyone laughed at my audacity, no complaints.

 

But to do that in broad daylight, I think I'd get the hump too, & let's be honest, we've all got the hump when being repeatedly shot when doing the "dead man's walk", if people started pulling that shit regularly, it'd soon descend in to chaos, dead players being hosed just because they didn't look "dead enough" lol

Edit ps just seen that cyberlawyer has made the same point regarding dead players, soz🤪

[Arwen]

If you don't have your hand in the air, your not dead to me, so you get shot at. 

 

It's sneaky tactics, but if noone on the opposing team even challenge/called out to them to ask or remind them to put their hand up if they were hit, then they were not being observant. 

[Enid_Puceflange]

2 minutes ago, Arwen said:

If you don't have your hand in the air, your not dead to me, so you get shot at. 

 

It's sneaky tactics, but if noone on the opposing team even challenge/called out to them to ask or remind them to put their hand up if they were hit, then they were not being observant. 

And that was my opinion 👍

[MiK]

@Enid_Puceflange playing Devils advocate here........

If you was actually dead and was indeed walking back to spawn and someone hosed you down would you be pissed off/kick off/moan to marshalls  ??

 

You would only pull that one once with me as I would “trip-tap” you any time I saw you in the game zone

[Tackle]

It's not unlike that other occasional occurrence, you've got the drop on someone, he doesn't see you but you can't see his armband etc, so you ask for a team ID, only for him to try some matrix shit, is it wrong & worthy of some cross words ?

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

Not the spirit of the game.  

 

Do it once, raise a laugh perhaps.  More than once is a bit naughty.  Do it regularly and game days are spoiled. 

 

  

[EDcase]

I've heard of this kind of thing before and I agree with Cyberlawyer.

 

Not in the spirit of the game and if done too often it endangers the true walking dead.

 

It can be hard enough telling friend from foe with walking dead from both teams going back and forth. (Many don't have their hand up for more than a few metres)

 

Imagine if it became a trend by certain people, the games would descend into chaos and practically unplayable.

[Tommikka]

Dead mans walk depends on some circumstances of games.

When I write game rules the dead mans walk is permitted unless I explicitly state otherwise.

 

Cheating to supplement dead mans walk is clearly cheating. (Eg hand up through an area, then hand down later on and shooting when behind enemy lines etc)

 

Eliminated players do raise their hands for a short while, and then drop them 

You should then raise your hand again if you come across the opposition

 

There is no need to light up dead players, if they are casually walking with hands down then a couple of shots or brief burst is easy.

When people know they are going to be shot again every time they soon lift their hand.  Airsoft is a game where you go in expecting to be shot at, and there is no way to see that someone has been shot unless they have their hand up, are waving a rag or have a disposable arm band system etc

 

The game layout and scale are factors as to whether I would allow or rule against dead mans walking.  In a small game I may disallow it, in a large game I would tend to allow it

The observers of a possible dead man walking should think about why that opposition player is walking towards or around them.

 

Eliminated players should be avoiding concentrated areas & gun fights. Unless they have just been shot in this gun fight.

See a few of the opposition or hear shooting then lift your hand up

 

Are they walking towards spawn or the safe zone?

Are they walking into your territory which is an objective of the opposition?

When someone complains that they have been tricked by dead mans walk at one of my events it shows a number of things:

They didn’t read my full rule set & scenario theme

They didn’t read my short summary key rules

They didn’t listen to the game & safety brief

They had a sad on because they weren’t paying attention and got tricked

[Sitting Duck]

It isn't cunning nor cheating...

 

it is SNIDEY imho

 

But if half a dozen players, not one is tracking you ADS

and perhaps firing a few shots your way at range

then allow you continue to close in without challenging you

 

well ultimately they deserve it to some degree

though do not be surprised if next round that player is still shot as he walks to respawn

 

I'M DEAD, GOT MY HAND UP - I SAID DEAD MAN WALKING FSS

 

Oh sorry m8, didn't see ya hand and I got these ear defenders on

 

YEAH - you can see this shit getting out of hand if you're not careful

But honestly, nobody tracked or challenged the guy ???

 

I know sometimes we drop the arm, but but tend to announce Dead Man Walking say every 30 secs

 

 

[AlphaBear]

Oh come on that's just too 'Carry On', you got to give it to him he had balls or maybe was using an invisibility spell and none of the opposing team saw him walking towards them..... If you don't have your hand up when walking through a live arena you're a target... it's simple. Goodness it's happened to me when I've been shot and I've not had my hand up coz it's get too tiring sometimes....

 

Why didn't someone from the opposing team just shoot him once?  Coz maybe they didn't see him?  Ergo, they wouldn't have known if he was alive or dead...? So he took his chances... 

 

Is it going against the spirit of the game.....? Was he dishonest? Dunno...  

 

Come to think of it.... it's too funny..... buy him a beer! lol

[Cr0-Magnon]

4 minutes ago, AlphaBear said:

Why didn't someone from the opposing team just shoot him once?  Coz maybe they didn't see him?  Ergo, they wouldn't have known if he was alive or dead...

 

I disagree with this as have been on the wrong side of it. It may have even been the first time I went airsofting. Mate and I saw the guy walking casually (even had hand "half" in the air), assumed he'd been shot or just leaving the game. Said player then appears behind us and teamates then opens fire.

 

I just think it leads to players overshooting, which as we all know can sour the day. 

 

"Even though that guy is talking to the Marshall he doesn't have his hand up, he's fair game" "That person appears just to be looking for a lost mag but you never know" "That older fella who's knackered doesn't have his hand up, even though he's walking away".... Light 'em up boys! 

 

You shouldn't have to clearly layout every rule in a honour based game. Much like if there's no bang rule and someone gets the drop on me, I'll take it. 

[Enid_Puceflange]

Thanks for the opinions guys

To be honest, I had just been eliminated from the game and returned to my re spawn point ( which was at the opposite end of the field from the oppositions)
I re entered play and walked past some of my team who were keeping the enemy heads down

I was heading into the firefight, guns down, head down, just casually strolling
A bit sneaky, but clearly not “out” 😂

[AlphaBear]

7 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

I just think it leads to players overshooting, which as we all know can sour the day. 

 

"Even though that guy is talking to the Marshall he doesn't have his hand up, he's fair game" "That person appears just to be looking for a lost mag but you never know" "That older fella who's knackered doesn't have his hand up, even though he's walking away".... Light 'em up boys! 

 

 

This happened to  me last weekend come to think of it other than looking for a lost mag (that was my mate's boy... bless him)....  stop shooting I'm dead... oops sorry mate we didn't see your hand.... no worries... I'm getting too old for this shit...!

 

But yes, over shooting can sour the day... totally agree there...

 

 

[Cr0-Magnon]

Can I ask for an opinion on cnut or not? 

 

Site I was playing doesn't have a bang rule. My teams objective was to defend the village and we had two lives (hit once, move to a safe spot and you're back in, hit again and you're out).

I was shot by a younger player from my own team but friendly fire counts so I take it as my first life. I moved in to the same room as the kid who'd just shot me and notice that someone from the opposing team had entered behind him and was asking him which team he was on. I also noticed the guy asking was on the opposite team (guy asking hadn't noticed/acknowledged me). So shot him once in the plate carrier. At which point he proclaims that we are both out because he could have shot the kid if he wanted to and chose not to.

 

I understand he was trying to be nice to a younger player, which is the correct thing to do. However that exchange didn't include me and my actions kept us both in the game. IMO you shouldn't be able to clear multiple opponents by asking one of them which team they're on. 

[AlphaBear]

5 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

Can I ask for an opinion on cnut or not? 

 

Site I was playing doesn't have a bang rule. My teams objective was to defend the village and we had two lives (hit once, move to a safe spot and you're back in, hit again and you're out).

I was shot by a younger player from my own team but friendly fire counts so I take it as my first life. I moved in to the same room as the kid who'd just shot me and notice that someone from the opposing team had entered behind him and was asking him which team he was on. I also noticed the guy asking was on the opposite team (guy asking hadn't noticed/acknowledged me). So shot him once in the plate carrier. At which point he proclaims that we are both out because he could have shot the kid if he wanted to and chose not to.

 

I understand he was trying to be nice to a younger player, which is the correct thing to do. However that exchange didn't include me and my actions kept us both in the game. IMO you shouldn't be able to clear multiple opponents by asking one of them which team they're on. 

Equally he may have ran out of bbs or he could have had a jam or he could have been a crap shot. All is fair in love and war. Only one bb hit would be needed. He can’t complain. But I get being nice to younger players. I do the same. 

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

Mate and I saw the guy walking casually (even had hand "half" in the air), assumed he'd been shot or just leaving the game. Said player then appears behind us and teamates then opens fire.

 

 

 

That was cheating 

[Cr0-Magnon]

That's the way I see it too. Bang/surrender should only be used when you can tap them on the back with your gun pointed at their head etc.

 

Funnily enough I did also see a guy who I knew was having severe issues trying to get his gun to work properly, run in to a room shouting "bang, bang, bang, bang" and trying to convince the four rentals that were defending it that they were all out.