Competitive But Not Speedsoft

[Seth_Erebor]

13 hours ago, Tommikka said:

That would actually bring the skills of speedsoft to the fore.  Instead of domination purely due to finger/trigger speed and/or running around like a demented idiot it would bring the need to understand the angles, time moves to the optimum moment etc

 

Is a speedsoft player just a bling player and is a ‘tactical’ player just someone dressed up in combats?   Some of them are, others are players with abilities and skills

 

Fair enough. Let's see the best rise to the top.

 

13 hours ago, Callum Hornsby said:

Hmm okay, so you want tactics and realism in small 5v5 games. The first issue is that it’s 5v5, minimal players results in intense, fast and over in two seconds kinda engagements regardless of playing tactical or not.

 

As for game modes you cannot have both teams on the offensive, one team needs to be the clear defenders (or objective holders eg. Flag holders or hostage takers) and the other the attackers (this could be swapped so each team gets a turn). This promotes slower gameplay and teamwork allowing attack and defence plans can be conversed over and executed.

 

Maps would have to follow closely to the ones of the games you mentioned, they need a main building or compound with a small amount of “street” or woodland surrounding to allow the attackers to make a dynamic entry (tactical af I know) having an alleyway approach like in cod soon gets stale and very speedsoft like.

 

I don’t see the need for the hit detectors or the load out rules, just a good marshalling team and a sort of milsim style of load out rules eg real cap mags and so on.

 

 

 

Small cap mags will probably be a large enough factor to get it to where I want.

 

Good point about attack/defend.

 

And how many marshal do I need to watch 10 players in intense CQB? 

I'm sorry but I'm sick of hearing people talk about non-hit takers. Problem solved, no need to bring it up in the safe zone again and again.

 

Loadout rule is really just the belt because of the system, everything else is fluid.

 

2 hours ago, Musica said:

Are you going to ban sliding to deter those speedsoft scum from ruining everyone else's fun? They will slowly walk through my line of fire and get shot then. 

 

Slide away! And it give all you've got

 

2 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

real cap isn't a bad shout, will put a dampener on unnecessary trigger spamming.

 

I'll edit that in.

 

44 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

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I was hoping for an actual picture.

 

39 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

But will it know the difference between a hit and a ricochet 

 

No, the margin of error would be too small to be certain.

 

24 minutes ago, Musica said:

Ricochets count IRL. 

 

True.

[AK47frizzle]

If ricochets count, we will have a game of trick shotters.

 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

11 minutes ago, AK47frizzle said:

If ricochets count, we will have a game of trick shotters.

 

 

Yep I use door frames to irriate door campers all the time.

 

Simple fact is ricochets cant count and that IRL bullshit is plain daft because bbs ricochet off anything bullets dont.

[Seth_Erebor]

I'm sure I can figure out a resolution.

 

The thought of someone blasting a wall and it spraying all over the place doesn't sound very sportsman-like.

Not in an organised match anyway, a skirmish is different.

[ImTriggerHappy]

19 minutes ago, Seth_Erebor said:

I'm sure I can figure out a resolution.

 

The thought of someone blasting a wall and it spraying all over the place doesn't sound very sportsman-like.

Not in an organised match anyway, a skirmish is different.

 

Short of covering every surface with play doh there is nothing to make it work.

[Callum Hornsby]

52 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Not in airsoft though and you can't say one is like the other as bb ricochet is nothing at all like bullet ricochet.

Very true bbs bounce off 99% of surfaces bullets bounce off 1% however the bullets would penetrate nearly all walls in a cqb environment so having ricochets count may not be the worst thing. Makes it easier to Marshall as well, as a hit is just a hit no questions asked.

 

Adding too my earlier comment I want to touch on grenades. Grenades are going to have to be exactly what they are bang grenades are just that, distraction devices. Pea grenades or bb grenades would be “kill grenades” but that presents another problem. In an competitive environment where the only objective is to win grenades become very overpowered. Chuck one in a window for a 100% kill rate in that room... not very fun or interesting gameplay is it 😂 it would be abused and you’d just end up playing grenade wars. Why would anyone risk exposing themselves to enemy fire when u could just lob a nade? Now there are two ways to get around this inevitable outcome, ban “kill” grenades or make it so they are not always a viable option. For example in a hostage rescue mission when the hostage is in an undisclosed location on the map you can’t just lob a grenade into every building because if you kill the hostage you’ve automatically lost. This would require players too atleast get a visual on the room to verify what subjects are inside it and wether it’s cleared hot for a “kill” nade. As well as this in a bomb refusal game the grenade could detonate the bomb resulting in a loss.

 

For the best realistic environment you have to give the players the most options too them but you have to subconsciously condition them to play a certain way. Place heavy emphasis on the importance of staying alive this forces a player to work more tactically as they want to survive but also want to win the objective.

50 minutes ago, Seth_Erebor said:

And how many marshal do I need to watch 10 players in intense CQB? 

I'm sorry but I'm sick of hearing people talk about non-hit takers. Problem solved, no need to bring it up in the safe zone again and again.

I would say 5 should be enough place them in important parts of the game zone so they see the most action as well place heavy consequences for any player / team caught cheating to encourage fair play. 

[Musica]

10 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Yep I use door frames to irriate door campers all the time.

 

Simple fact is ricochets cant count and that IRL bullshit is plain daft because bbs ricochet off anything bullets dont.

perhaps it's ok to let ricochets count as IRL if you had  shotgun and knew a guy was behind a door hes dead. I think the reason they don't count on skirmish days is otherwise everyone would be firing at everything all the time and it could easily be considered blind firing. 

 

I had a guy last game day pumping out 6 shots at me from his shotgun trying to get one through tiny gaps in my cover. If it was IRL I would of been hit but since he has 0 penetration against wood I was victorious! 

[ImTriggerHappy]

@Seth_Erebor on a small cqb site like yours one or two in high vis and a player marshal each team.

 

Player marshals are the best weapon against none hit takers.

[Seth_Erebor]

24 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

 

Short of covering every surface with play doh there is nothing to make it work.

 

Sponge Rubber Sheet?

 

A thinner version of this, that doesn't go everywhere and doesn't have any health risks.

 

22 minutes ago, Callum Hornsby said:

Very true bbs bounce off 99% of surfaces bullets bounce off 1% however the bullets would penetrate nearly all walls in a cqb environment so having ricochets count may not be the worst thing. Makes it easier to Marshall as well, as a hit is just a hit no questions asked.

 

Adding too my earlier comment I want to touch on grenades. Grenades are going to have to be exactly what they are bang grenades are just that, distraction devices. Pea grenades or bb grenades would be “kill grenades” but that presents another problem. In an competitive environment where the only objective is to win grenades become very overpowered. Chuck one in a window for a 100% kill rate in that room... not very fun or interesting gameplay is it 😂 it would be abused and you’d just end up playing grenade wars. Why would anyone risk exposing themselves to enemy fire when u could just lob a nade? Now there are two ways to get around this inevitable outcome, ban “kill” grenades or make it so they are not always a viable option. For example in a hostage rescue mission when the hostage is in an undisclosed location on the map you can’t just lob a grenade into every building because if you kill the hostage you’ve automatically lost. This would require players too atleast get a visual on the room to verify what subjects are inside it and wether it’s cleared hit for a “kill” nade. As well as this in a bomb refusal game the grenade could detonate the bomb resulting in a loss.

 

For the best realistic environment you have to give the players the most options too them but you have to subconsciously condition them to play a certain way. Place heavy emphasis on the importance of staying alive this forces a player to work more tactically as they want to survive but also want to win the objective.

I would say 5 should be enough place them in important parts of the game zone so they see the most action as well place heavy consequences for any player / team caught cheating to encourage fair play. 

 

Low mag count/real cap mags might limit that tactic. We'll see.

 

Bangs would be better for distraction, good point. Perhaps a limit on grenades then?

 

 

19 minutes ago, Musica said:

perhaps it's ok to let ricochets count as IRL if you had  shotgun and knew a guy was behind a door hes dead. I think the reason they don't count on skirmish days is otherwise everyone would be firing at everything all the time and it could easily be considered blind firing. 

 

I had a guy last game day pumping out 6 shots at me from his shotgun trying to get one through tiny gaps in my cover. If it was IRL I would of been hit but since he has 0 penetration against wood I was victorious! 

 

It's a tricky one for sure.

9 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

@Seth_Erebor on a small cqb site like yours one or two in high vis and a player marshal each team.

 

Player marshals are the best weapon against none hit takers.

 

But there over a dozen buildings with an upstairs and some with multiple rooms.

We'll see

[ImTriggerHappy]

11 minutes ago, Seth_Erebor said:

 

Sponge Rubber Sheet?

 

A thinner version of this, that doesn't go everywhere and doesn't have any health risks.

 

 

Low mag count/real cap mags might limit that tactic. We'll see.

 

Bangs would be better for distraction, good point. Perhaps a limit on grenades then?

 

 

 

It's a tricky one for sure.

 

But there over a dozen buildings with an upstairs and some with multiple rooms.

We'll see

 

Mall used to run 1 for every 10 players and was a 200,000 sqft maze.

 

Seriously your idea has so many issues that no matter what you suggest or how you spin it anybody who knows the game well will see what I see, a short lived gimmick destined to disappear very quickly.

 

Low cap mags will just piss off 90% of airsofters. All airsofters want is a good well run site that lets them act like children.

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

Think its a great idea in principle. I agree with Callum 100%. Make it a fast paced 'mini milsim'. I personally dont see the point of a hit detection system - the black ops site is small and cheaters would be sniffed out very quickly. If you go with that system i think richochets would have to count - its pretty all or nothing.

 

Edit: im just gonna say it: i have zero interest in the hit detection system. Lasertag exists,dunno where you lot skirmish but i find non-hit taking very rare.

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

Yeah hit detection is a "nice to have, worth exploring" option. I wouldn't be gunning for it this quickly, because it's trying to fix a problem which wouldn't even be that much of an issue in the game format you're describing (imo)

 

With regards to the format itself, I really like the idea. I think you'd be a fool not to market it as a way for a group of friends, teams etc. to prove themselves against other teams. Get some rivalries going, leaderboards, tournaments, all that good stuff. Paves the way for esports-style integration later on.

[Callum Hornsby]

I agree very much with George and DrAlexander, this does sound good and something I’d be willing to travel and maybe even practice for. I think the best way too accomplish this is by replicating the games you originally mentioned. As far as your site goes I’d recommend sectioning small parts off because if you play the whole site it will just be an utter mess.

 

Personally I’m totally against the hit system it’s limiting players to a speedsoft style of belt rig and weird lights on them... doesn’t sound great to me. I like the term George used calling it a “mini milsim” and that’s exactly what it is players are probably naturally gonna gravitate towards special forces / swat loadouts which are more suited to cqb then your standard infantrymen.

 

Study a lot of military cqb training videos as well as real missions and see what sort of environment they was in the objectives they had replicate it as best as you can. Experiment I’m sure you’ll soon find the sweet spot. 

[Smintheus]

You talk about the hit taking system as taking out non hit taking complaints. Unfortunately, these complaints are primarily caused by the fact that airsofters think they're much better shots than they actually are. 

 

The complaints will still be there, but they'll be :

 

'I hit him somewhere the system didn't register' 

 

'I hit him but the system didn't work' 

 

'I hit him before he shot me' 

 

Etc. 

 

These complaints are ubiquitous and part of the sport. I've spent literally years following up on them as a marshal and the number of complaints that proved justified were under 10%. 

 

Even in paintball, hit taking is an issue! 

 

A better suggestion - make tracers compulsory. Suddenly everyone can see where they're shooting. 

 

For the overall format, it has some promise but seems like a niche appeal. It's also literally speedsoft with extra bells, which is fine....

 

Otherwise I think the concept has legs. The hit detection gear is a waste of time and money, but the concept might run. I'd slot it in as a once a month special alongside regular skirmish days. 

 

Also worth thinking - if you're trying to go this way, this concept is probably best marketed at non airsoft players. That way you could provide all the kit and control gear and load outs, and angle it as an experience day. Regular airsofters will resist this hugely because they want to use their own kit. 

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Seth_Erebor said:

I was hoping for an actual picture.

 

Back atchya.

[Prisce]

🤦🏻‍♂️ 

[Tommikka]

When is a ricochet a firm hit or a gentle tap?

 

 

.....

 

may I refer back to Toms trademarked 27mm gelatine BBs .....

[Adolf Hamster]

23 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

When is a ricochet a firm hit or a gentle tap?

 

 

.....

 

may I refer back to Toms trademarked 27mm gelatine BBs .....

 

Ive had instances where ricochets have been genuinely mistaken for hits, the right bb, barrier and angle and they can come back at you with authority.

 

Also gelatine bb's? Thats heresy sir and i suggest you cease it

[ImTriggerHappy]

One question does anybody reading this think that the game idea of small teams and trying to play all tactical is some how new?

 

Give you a clue it isn't, similar stuff has been tried before, in paintball years ago I remember places trying it. Never really took off as paintballers tried it, thought yeah that was different and went back to paintball. None paintballers tried it and either didn't like the pain or became paintballers and ended playing speedball as way more fun.

 

Laser tag tried it and lots of people had a go and some even had quite a few goes but it soon petered out it soon became kind of boring.

 

Pretty sure some airsoft places have tried it and it has never really took off. 

 

While some of the more larpy players will enjoy it the small size means scenarios are limited so can become stale very quick. To be honest the larpy types who actually want to take it serious are actually a minority so your client base past people who just have a go to try it and then go back to just having a laugh at skirmishes is pretty small. The idea does have merit but  I honestly reckon it will only work as an occasional thing and the site really needs to concentrate on providing a good cqb experience as that is where the longevity is.

 

The hit detection is just bollocks no matter how you look at it though.

[Prisce]

6 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

One question does anybody reading this think that the game idea of small teams and trying to play all tactical is some how new?

 

Give you a clue it isn't, similar stuff has been tried before, in paintball years ago I remember places trying it. Never really took off as paintballers tried it, thought yeah that was different and went back to paintball. None paintballers tried it and either didn't like the pain or became paintballers and ended playing speedball as way more fun.

 

Laser tag tried it and lots of people had a go and some even had quite a few goes but it soon petered out it soon became kind of boring.

 

Pretty sure some airsoft places have tried it and it has never really took off. 

 

While some of the more larpy players will enjoy it the small size means scenarios are limited so can become stale very quick. To be honest the larpy types who actually want to take it serious are actually a minority so your client base past people who just have a go to try it and then go back to just having a laugh at skirmishes is pretty small. The idea does have merit but  I honestly reckon it will only work as an occasional thing and the site really needs to concentrate on providing a good cqb experience as that is where the longevity is.

 

The hit detection is just bollocks no matter how you look at it though.

I agree. The problem is in today’s day and age everyone wants to turn their hobbies into a way of making money. 

 

Because of this, a lot of ideas like this one have sprung up, people trying to make money out of an idea that was probably first thought of a decade ago, just so they can spend as much time as they want doing something to do with their hobby, trying to become a millionaire in the process. 

 

They started a 5vs5 style tournament this year at a site(I forget what it’s called) and from what I heard it was every bit as bad as you can imagine. 

 

If it aint broke, don’t try to fix it, if you have an idea on how to improve it, your a decade late and no one gives a shit.

[ImTriggerHappy]

3 minutes ago, Prisce said:

I agree. The problem is in today’s day and age everyone wants to turn their hobbies into a way of making money. 

 

Because of this, a lot of ideas like this one have sprung up, people trying to make money out of an idea that was probably first thought of a decade ago, just so they can spend as much time as they want doing something to do with their hobby, trying to become a millionaire in the process. 

 

They started a 5vs5 style tournament this year at a site(I forget what it’s called) and from what I heard it was every bit as bad as you can imagine. 

 

If it aint broke, don’t try to fix it, if you have an idea on how to improve it, your a decade late and no one gives a shit.

 

I reckon I could put together a pretty lethal team though.  Anybody remember the vault game at the mall 5 vs everyone else? 

[Musica]

23 minutes ago, Prisce said:

I agree. The problem is in today’s day and age everyone wants to turn their hobbies into a way of making money. 

 

Because of this, a lot of ideas like this one have sprung up, people trying to make money out of an idea that was probably first thought of a decade ago, just so they can spend as much time as they want doing something to do with their hobby, trying to become a millionaire in the process.

 

I play a lot of video games and I get OK at them but I never enjoy playing "competitive" matches or tournaments. I play for fun and it's just not fun for me when theres more stakes on the line than just playing for the hell of it.  I do think your right everyone dreams of their hobby  making them money similar to how most people wanted to be a footballer but now people want to be a youtuber or twitch streamer. For me hobbys are to relax so I don't enjoy when they get too serious.

[Tiercel]

Sounds like you're taking what is potentially a good idea, then ruining it by massively over complicating it.

 

Small "mini milsim" 5v5 CQB missions sounds like a potentially awesome idea. Have a day-long tournament, each game lasts 10 minutes or something like that, a dozen teams on the day  working their way up a score board, sounds really fun.

 

I like the idea of belt rigs only for cqb so you don't get Rook and his extra armour turning up ignoring hits because "CQB hurts I need protection!" I'd allow helmets though at people's choice. One because if people are getting their Ash on and pelting around cqb heads twatting into door frames hurt a lot and are an insurance claim nightmare "he told me I couldn't wear head protection and now I've got a big scar on my forehead! I've got Injury lawyers 4 u on speed dial!" And two as a medical professional working with members of the public in my day job it looks bad if I turn up at work with a face full of oozing BB welts so for cqb I do tend to go all out on face/head protection

 

Balaclava with built in mesh... You mean you want me to share re-used grotty face protection that many other sweaty mouth breathers have been rubbing all over themselves? No, thanks. It's bad enough reusing hard face pro at regular rental sites but soft fabric stuff that's gonna be full of sweat and grease, no.

 

Over complicating it with bizzare rules and a strange LED system and RF trigger blocks (this of course now means people can't bring their own guns, forcing people to rent which sucks) and the rest of that sounds massively over complicated and full of problems that will kill it off.  

 

For one. How would your hit detection differentiate between a BB strike and your mate prodding you hard in the chest for a laugh, or bumping against walls?  It sounds like you've seen laser tag kit and thought "that'll work great for Airsoft!" Which... It wont. 

 

Also we all know what it's like when you go to a game day and they're trying a new game with really over complex rules/objectives... Everyone ignores the objectives and it just turns into team death match. If you want to avoid this, remember the age old words of wisdom, keep it simple! I'd also consider as a way of encouraging people to actually play the objective rather than win by eliminating the other team have some kind of points system in place for scoring teams on the day, say 1 point for every player eliminated and 3-5 points per onjecti completed. (assuming there's more than one objective per round, if there's only one then you'd need to balance it so that completing objectives is a decent enough reward in points but not OP )

 

Other suggestions, if you're going for mini milsim level of play, then appropriate loadouts is a nice idea, no speedsoft trackie bottoms and wannabe NFL jerseys. I'd also consider ammo limits to stop it turning into a "IM NOT USING FULL AUTO JUST REALLY FAST SEMI AUTO LOL" spamfest of who can spunk a whole mag down a corridor fastest like every other CQB site. No hicaps/drum mags. Mid/low caps only and to force people to think sensibly about their shots I'd consider making a 30-50BBs per magazine limit and maximum of say 150-200 BBs carried in total for your primary weapon. Secondary like pistol or even shotgun would be unlimited (again no Glock 18s with drum mag to get around this 😛 )

 

I think I see what you're trying to do, and I like it, but don't ruin it by going full rainman over it!

[Tommikka]

17 hours ago, Seth_Erebor said:

 

 

 

But there over a dozen buildings with an upstairs and some with multiple rooms.

 

This is even more reason for enough marshals to safely watch the players.

  

 

..... and if it’s a 5v5 competition then you have 10 players to watch in a focused area of action, which means you can place your marshals to fit the Scenario and follow the action

 

[Davegolf]

I feel all of the hit recog kit is just aiming the games all toward Joe public walk-ons, AKA planet laser etc.

 

I see you thought and reasoning for the recog kit but irritatingly I think it would cause as many new issues as it would resolve.

 

Plus who wants to wear all that!?

 

What is you target customer base?

One time Joes or repeated custom long term Airsofters?

 

Building a good gentlemans agreement through regular players and solid marshalling is going to be way more fun, less complicated and costly I would think.

 

I think with 5v5 in mind specifically Battle Belts only is a great idea as lots of hits are not taken due to the like of tac vests.

 

I don't think the mag capacity is a biggy, I assume the games are all semi only anyway.

That said Realcap or Midcap will keep the site cleaner ha!

 

350FPS will make hits known / players react to hit involuntarily making it obvious.

 

No mesh eyepro is a good call, with lots of hard surface BBs shatter.

 

If you are potentially running 12x 5man teams then 6-8 marshalls would be good, all depends on you budget / what works, but the more the merrier.

Ultimately most airsofters want a good game, 5v5 is going to be active, getting a good rep and honest regulars will do so much for the site.