Why we chrono

[TheFull9]

Certainly nobody here is saying ignorance is an excuse, far from it.  Ignorance is just the fact of the matter, there's no basic training for airsoft.  The bar for entry is having a bit of money (comparatively small amount in comparison to some hobbies) and the ability to get to a skirmish site and shoot a rif.

[ImTriggerHappy]

1 hour ago, gasman said:

What is it the police would say ignorance is no excuse. Druid spoke about people asking questions which are basic and covered here on this forum in so many places I do not find I don,t understand an excuse

Except the fact some players don't ever look on forums and facebook and just go play.

 

I played for about a year and a half before I ever looked at anything.

[Tiercel]

I also think that most people dont understand/care about joule creep... its the current "in" buzzword that some people like to kick up a stink about and get all holier than thou about it. Id certainly never heard of it til recently. Site wants < 350/500 on 0.2 then thats what people aim to abide by. Mostly.

[ImTriggerHappy]

42 minutes ago, Tiercel said:

I also think that most people dont understand/care about joule creep... its the current "in" buzzword that some people like to kick up a stink about and get all holier than thou about it. Id certainly never heard of it til recently. Site wants < 350/500 on 0.2 then thats what people aim to abide by. Mostly.

 

^^^THIS^^^

 

Joule creep does occur but those extra fps are such a small difference that you have to wonder if it is really worth the fuss people make about it.

[Rogerborg]

10 hours ago, EDcase said:

I think its your duty to mention where this was...

 

I'd suggest that the first thing to be done is to approach the site owner.  If they don't know that it's going on, how can they stop it?

 

I should note that my local CQB site is rock solid on ensuring that nobody can plead ignorance of the requirement to get chronoed and tagged.

 

I'd just like them to do more in-game testing, and to be a bit less trusting of regulars, including the marshals and myself.  I like getting chronoed in-game: it takes a few seconds and its visible evidence that they're on the hunt for rogues.

[Musica]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

I should note that my local CQB site is rock solid on ensuring that nobody can plead ignorance of the requirement to get chronoed and tagged.

 

I'd just like them to do more in-game testing, and to be a bit less trusting of regulars, including the marshals and myself.  I like getting chronoed in-game: it takes a few seconds and its visible evidence that they're on the hunt for rogues.

 

 

They never chrono'd my TM pistol just asked the gas seems abusable maybe they just know a TM isn't likely to fire over 350?

 

I  wish they would chrono in game more. I've liturally never seen any site do it but to be fair to FWG it was 1 marshal so he would struggle. He chronod 20-25 guys in the time the depot do about 10 and he writes the chrono result on your arm band.

[Adolf Hamster]

33 minutes ago, Musica said:

They never chrono'd my TM pistol just asked the gas seems abusable maybe they just know a TM isn't likely to fire over 350?

 

ahh yes the old "co2 pistol loud therefore is hot" fallacy

[Prisce]

Again, this is where I see AP(Airsoft Plantation) as a step ahead. 

 

They operate a trust system. It’s your responsibility to get your gun chronoed. No tags, no Marshall to check.

 

But what they do do is have a marshal with a chrono out every single game spot checking people, if your caught .01J over(yea they measure In joules), or can’t name the weight BB your using, your off to the safe zone. Then your not allowed back in game until the Marshall comes back and chronos your gun on a bb weight they know, if it’s safe(this is usually a different gun) they will allow you 1 more chance, if it’s not, good luck getting back into a game.

 

I was caught once with a dodgy mag(literally 1 mag same bbs was producing , I think, a 20fps difference on .25s(was a brand new recoil mag)- the thread with the facts is on this forum somewhere. I proved this to them, they thought it was strange too, and let me straight back out, as long as I kept that mag in the safe zone. 

 

I feel safer at this site than others because I know they are vigilant.

[Rogerborg]

^^^^^^

 

[ProPain87]

The gaol are pretty good. You have to chrono on the weight you are using and they have some small digital scales to check. You get tagged and your not allowed in the game zone without the tag and last time I was there 90% of the players got chronoed again entering the game zone. They also chrono every pistol now.

In my opinion every site should chrono on joules because joule creep is a thing, especially with snipers and hpa. Some snipers can joule creep more than a joule if set up to do so.

me personally would rather have a gun that I could use everywhere without being a dick and cheating the chrono using .2s 

Also from what I’ve heard if you have an air rifle confiscated by the old bill they use a variety of weight pellets to check the power before you can have it back. “If” they ever did chrono an Airsoft gun I’d assume they would do the same 🤷‍♂️

[ImTriggerHappy]

23 minutes ago, ProPain87 said:

 Some snipers can joule creep more than a joule if set up to do so.

Highly doubt that joule creep is usually pretty low figures.

[Prisce]

42 minutes ago, ProPain87 said:

The gaol are pretty good. You have to chrono on the weight you are using and they have some small digital scales to check. You get tagged and your not allowed in the game zone without the tag and last time I was there 90% of the players got chronoed again entering the game zone. They also chrono every pistol now.

In my opinion every site should chrono on joules because joule creep is a thing, especially with snipers and hpa. Some snipers can joule creep more than a joule if set up to do so.

me personally would rather have a gun that I could use everywhere without being a dick and cheating the chrono using .2s 

Also from what I’ve heard if you have an air rifle confiscated by the old bill they use a variety of weight pellets to check the power before you can have it back. “If” they ever did chrono an Airsoft gun I’d assume they would do the same 🤷‍♂️

Because someone (really was accidental) arrived on site with an ASG Mk23 firing 435fps with the barrel extension on....he like the rest of us didn’t think it would be possible for a pistol to shoot that!

19 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Highly doubt that joule creep is usually pretty low figures.

I can confirm a buddy with a SRS can creep 0.85J going from .2s to .48s.... we take a chrono with us to every game to make sure we measure in joules, no one wants to be that guy who actually hurts someone.

[ImTriggerHappy]

46 minutes ago, Prisce said:

 

I can confirm a buddy with a SRS can creep 0.85J going from .2s to .48s.... we take a chrono with us to every game to make sure we measure in joules, no one wants to be that guy who actually hurts someone.

 

I should imagine a big part of that is the hop being set for 0.48 which makes a huge difference, bigger than any actual joule creep.

 

That is why snipers running heavy ammo should be tested on what they say and on 0.4s

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, ProPain87 said:

Also from what I’ve heard if you have an air rifle confiscated by the old bill they use a variety of weight pellets to check the power before you can have it back. “If” they ever did chrono an Airsoft gun I’d assume they would do the same

 

Indeed, the power limits on the definition of an airsoft gun explicitly say "any missile". They could drop 6mm of depleted uranium in there.

 

That said, if it's not an airsoft gun, then it's an airgun, so no real worries.

 

I mean, unless you're in Scotland and not licensed to hold an air gun, or you're using green gas, in which case it can't be an airgun and it falls through to being a firearm.

[gasman]

My E&L AK without any hop will chrono at 367FPS with .2BB but with hop set to lift .25bbs will chrono with .2bbs below 350FPS. So does that make me a cheat no because I am using that hop setting in game with .25BBs at 317FPS. So many things that change FPS Hop, good or bad BBs, clean barrel or dirty even the temperature. I am happy to chrono anytime for anyone and a chrono is so cheap I think all air-softers can afford one then they can see what their changes to a gun does.

Air rifles in England tend to be tested by the police using super heavy magnum pellets thus creating the maximum possible joule figure.

[Rogerborg]

10 hours ago, gasman said:

Air rifles in England tend to be tested by the police using super heavy magnum pellets thus creating the maximum possible joule figure.

 

As they should be, since the intent of the law is to deter the ownership of weapons that could be used for nefarious purposes, regardless of whether that's how they're currently being used.

 

Same applies to airsoft guns, although I doubt that the State is going to be that bothered about anything but the HP'est of HPA toys.

[Adolf Hamster]

8 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

As they should be, since the intent of the law is to deter the ownership of weapons that could be used for nefarious purposes, regardless of whether that's how they're currently being used.

 

Same applies to airsoft guns, although I doubt that the State is going to be that bothered about anything but the HP'est of HPA toys.

 

 

it is a worrying notion, the hpa you use at say 75psi with .3g's gets tested at 160psi with .48's and you get told it's not kosher, which of course it wouldn't be, but then that's not how it's actually being used.

 

of course i suppose if they're being that pernickety then you've already done something to attract their attention.

 

i think the problem is we have a distinct lack of case studies in airsoft, we don't know for sure exactly what's going to happen in these kinds of situations, if you interpret it strictly enough then literally anything bar aeg's wouldn't be allowed.

[Rogerborg]

40 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

gets tested at 160psi with .48's

 

Or with 0.86g steel ball bearings.  Again: "any missile".  The question is what it's capable of doing in the hands of someone who doesn't care whether they wreck the hop or barrel.

[Adolf Hamster]

18 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Or with 0.86g steel ball bearings.  Again: "any missile".  The question is what it's capable of doing in the hands of someone who doesn't care whether they wreck the hop or barrel.

 

and herein lies the problem, how far do we take it? if an aeg is capable of pulling an m200 spring does that count even if what's actually in there is an m95?

[Tommikka]

I really don’t understand joule creep

I understand what it means/is ...... (or what I think is meant by those who use it)

 

In Paintball we would look at airweapon legislation which gave us 12ft lbs for air rifles and 6ft lbs for air pistols.  Which immeadiately makes  paintball pistols into firearms.

There is also the fact that a paintball gun does not qualify as a rifle so every single one would be well over 6ft lbs and then a firearm.

12 ftlbs on a ‘standard’ .68” Paintball equates to 300+something FPS

But there is caselaw that set 300fps

(we have a few get our clauses under firearms legislation due to frangibility)

 

In practice in UK Paintball we set at 300fps for tournaments, 280fps for the woods and most games, 250fps for close up/night etc, and if the organiser remembers 250fps for co2 based guns (it will spike up, so chrono at 250 to allow for spiking)

 

With one gun I could just change barrel.  I knew that my preferred optimum barrel would shoot at approx 280fps and that my short 3” barrel was inefficient and lost 30fps

I could keep the normal barrel and chrono down and save air, but as I had enough air to shoot the balls I was carrying I had no need

 

We are therefore within the legal limit (as long as you chrono) and anyone but an idiot will chrono players, no matter how well you trust them 

Everyone trusts me ..... but I’ve turned up and fired over the chrono hot. That could be illegal, but as long as I’m finding that on the range then things are good rather than shooting people 

 (I had 390 out of a pistol on its first use)

 

We have non standard paintballs:

  .43” .50” which could have their velocity increased to remain legal in joules, but the norm is to keep within 280fps. 

 

First strike shaped projectiles caused concerns as its a different beast.  Half paintball at the front, fins at the back .... similar to an airgun pellet

But these have been subject to official testing and remain within the legal impact, frangibility etc 

They can be used at the normal FPS, so just chrono to 280fps.  But they perform differently:

1) they hit harder as they maintain their energy further in flight then drop fast.  So people think you are shooting hot

2) for a given amount of air coming down the barrel they fly faster with regard to muzzle velocity.  No problem if you just have first strike, but if you mix and match standard and first strike then you must be chronoed with FS, and will shoot standard at about 10fps less

3) many other things but not relevant here

 

 

Joules are not ‘creeping’ in airsoft.  You shoot two different BBs with different mass from the same gun with no adjustment then the joules will be different 

At a given velocity the heavier BB will have more joules

Chrono with x BB at y velocity will give you a ‘known’ level of joules

Then change BB, change barrel, change settings and you’re doing something different 

Personnaly if joule creep meant that using co2 can spike then I would be happy with the term, as its ‘shoot something different and have different joules’ then in my opinion it doesn’t exist.  

The chrono process is wrong - whether it is or isn’t a problem is a different matter, if it means you are exceeding a given amount of energy (intentionally or not) then its a problem, if it means Fred is shooting further than Bob then that’s just specifics

[Albiscuit]

On 17/07/2019 at 08:30, Prisce said:

Again, this is where I see AP(Airsoft Plantation) as a step ahead. 

 

They operate a trust system. It’s your responsibility to get your gun chronoed. No tags, no Marshall to check.

 

But what they do do is have a marshal with a chrono out every single game spot checking people, if your caught .01J over(yea they measure In joules), or can’t name the weight BB your using, your off to the safe zone. Then your not allowed back in game until the Marshall comes back and chronos your gun on a bb weight they know, if it’s safe(this is usually a different gun) they will allow you 1 more chance, if it’s not, good luck getting back into a game.

 

I was caught once with a dodgy mag(literally 1 mag same bbs was producing , I think, a 20fps difference on .25s(was a brand new recoil mag)- the thread with the facts is on this forum somewhere. I proved this to them, they thought it was strange too, and let me straight back out, as long as I kept that mag in the safe zone. 

 

I feel safer at this site than others because I know they are vigilant.

 

Im not 100% sold on the its an honour based game so we trust you all to chrono yourselves and be honest angle they use, similar to EAG.

 

I much prefer being chronoed by a marshal, having a visual sticker/tag on my gun and everyone else's with spot checks too. 

 

Yes I get the theory, its a game of trust so we trust you to use correct FPS weapons, but what about those as mentioned here. Didnt realise their pistol was shooting at 430+ or had changed something and all of a sudden had a 80 fps spike in their gun, or those that just dont know! Not even talking about those that WILL cheat. 

I have played at AP probably 5 times now and have never been spot checked. Plus with chronos that are just set up and left I personally have no idea how to set them up, I would assume its easy, but what if the twat before me was changing settings, pressing buttons etc and had knocked everyone elses readings out?

 

The extra time it takes to be vigilant and for a site to know 100% guns have been checked and to keep on it during the day is a safety aspect that is worth the time in my opinion.

 

That being said the long ass line if you didnt get chronoed early at the mall was annoying   but you got talking to others which was ok i guess!

[Tackle]

lol, cracking on for 20 years of playing & I remember some cheats getting caught out at my very first game, nothings changed, cheaters be a cheatin, irrespective of the technology then or now, so for some sites to leave it to "trust" is at the very least naïve, definitely lazy, & might even be considered criminal if someone gets seriously injured & its pulled through the courts, the argument being that 95% (?) of sites use an enforced chrono system at the start, & often throughout the day, that may set a legal precedent/benchmark that the remaining 5% (?) can be judged by, & therefore criminally negligent.

wonder what a sites insurers would make of it if the shit were to hit the fan, I think we know the answer 😉

[Nick G]

44 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

I 

 

 

Joules are not ‘creeping’ in airsoft.  You shoot two different BBs with different mass from the same gun with no adjustment then the joules will be different 

At a given velocity the heavier BB will have more joules

Chrono with x BB at y velocity will give you a ‘known’ level of joules

Then change BB, change barrel, change settings and you’re doing something different 

Personnaly if joule creep meant that using co2 can spike then I would be happy with the term, as its ‘shoot something different and have different joules’ then in my opinion it doesn’t exist.  

The chrono process is wrong - whether it is or isn’t a problem is a different matter, if it means you are exceeding a given amount of energy (intentionally or not) then its a problem, if it means Fred is shooting further than Bob then that’s just specifics

I think you are missing the point slightly, yes a heavier BB at the same velocity will have more Joules than a light one. However in reality , velocity is different. My sniper will fire a .20 at pretty much bang on 500 fps, the .36's that I use in it obviously have a lower velocity because everything in the gun is the same no stronger springs etc. BUT the .36's don't fly that much slower so the energy that they carry starts to 'creep' up , on .2's my 500 fps springer is fireing at 2.3 Joules however on .36 it chronos at 2.4 joules that's Joule creep, anything heavier and I am over the site limit of 2.5 Joules

[Seth_Erebor]

Would it be simplistic of me to say that HPA is far easier to adjust?

 

 

[Tackle]

altering fps isn't just the domain of hpa users, some aeg users have been at it for years, long before hpa was a thing.