How many chances?

[Druid799]

My home site ,

you DELIBERATELY run a hot gun ? Your gone .

non hit taking ? 1st report , the marshals will keep an eye open for you in particular , 2nd (must be from a different player) they have a word with you about it , 3rd report OR witnessed by a marshal you get double arm banded with very bright tape .

overly aggressive (again multiple reports or witnessed by a marshal) ? You sit out the next game , to ‘contemplate’ it’s just a game not real life .

Also have a strict policy on safety , you walk in to the safe zone with a mag in or out of it without your eye pro on you will get shouted at very loudly so everybody hears , you repeat the offense you will be spoken too and you will miss the next game or if they do think your not taking safety onboard then your gone and have seen that happen , young lad repeatedly walked in to the safe zone with the obligatory puke green L96 with a mag in , when spoken too was VERY dismissive of the safety aspect and didn’t see what the problem was as it’s a bolt action ! so mummy was phoned to come and pick him up , when she did arrive we soon realized where his entitled attitude came from ! 🤦‍♂️

now there are a quite a few regular players that the head marshal will take there word if they say a player is transgressing and will speak too the player off the bat without having them watched first BUT the number of players I’ve seen him do this with is quite small and I’ve also seen the same players be nominated as player marshals on very busy game days when there isn’t enough to police the whole site effectively , if you are asked then you don’t have the power to sanction a play for rule breaking in game but your word is treated as the word of a full marshal (only exception is with a safety issue). And if you are asked you do get either free lunch or a free game next time you play , plus if you are involved in any rule breaking yourself then you won’t be asked again , so there is an incentive to be as honest and as impartial as possible?

 

[clumpyedge]

3 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

My home site ,

you DELIBERATELY run a hot gun ? Your gone .

non hit taking ? 1st report , the marshals will keep an eye open for you in particular , 2nd (must be from a different player) they have a word with you about it , 3rd report OR witnessed by a marshal you get double arm banded with very bright tape .

overly aggressive (again multiple reports or witnessed by a marshal) ? You sit out the next game , to ‘contemplate’ it’s just a game not real life .

Also have a strict policy on safety , you walk in to the safe zone with a mag in or out of it without your eye pro on you will get shouted at very loudly so everybody hears , you repeat the offense you will be spoken too and you will miss the next game or if they do think your not taking safety onboard then your gone and have seen that happen , young lad repeatedly walked in to the safe zone with the obligatory puke green L96 with a mag in , when spoken too was VERY dismissive of the safety aspect and didn’t see what the problem was as it’s a bolt action ! so mummy was phoned to come and pick him up , when she did arrive we soon realized where his entitled attitude came from ! 🤦‍♂️

now there are a quite a few regular players that the head marshal will take there word if they say a player is transgressing and will speak too the player off the bat without having them watched first BUT the number of players I’ve seen him do this with is quite small and I’ve also seen the same players be nominated as player marshals on very busy game days when there isn’t enough to police the whole site effectively , if you are asked then you don’t have the power to sanction a play for rule breaking in game but your word is treated as the word of a full marshal (only exception is with a safety issue). And if you are asked you do get either free lunch or a free game next time you play , plus if you are involved in any rule breaking yourself then you won’t be asked again , so there is an incentive to be as honest and as impartial as possible?

 

 

Again I get what you are saying but asking players who attend regularly to be player marshals in my opinion just doesn't work. I don't play at the site I work at simply because I wouldn't want to even run the risk of people complaining of preferential treatment or put the ethos of the staff and rules into question (to some extent). I like the idea of the bright tape but at the same time I feel if they don't listen to the advice on the second occasion at our place they just get sin binned and sent back to safe zone.

We have staff that if we are busy will leave the safe zone down a person so we can have an extra body on the ground so we can police large numbers of players, having said that I cant remember the ratio of marshals to players off the top of my head that is required by our insurance (and I'm sure everyone's may be different).

 

On another note has anyone ever encountered either physical or verbal aggression at a game before?

 

 

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, clumpyedge said:

There has to be an element of giving people chances

 

For hit dodging, or cheat calling, sure, mistakes are made, and adrenaline Tourette's does kick in.

 

My issue is that sites should say only what they mean, and mean everything that they say.

 

Per the example above, if chronoing is declared to be mandatory, and people are given every chance and repeated instructions to get tested and tagged, including right before the first game, then finding an untagged gun in game should be a go-home offence.  No testing in game, no excuses, no need for a lecture even (they didn't listen before, why would they listen now?), just bounce them off site and accept the sour grapes Facebook review that will inevitably follow.

 

Same for hot guns.  I'm not sure how "deliberate" factors into it, since nobody to whom that applies is going to fess up to it.  It's hot, or it's not, the BB and eyepro doesn't care about the intent.  Granted, there's an edge case for gas guns that were tested cold and then heated up during the day.  But again, chronos tend to be available throughout the day, and if you're in doubt, you can test before a game.

[Asomodai]

So... I hold my hand up and say that early on in my airsoft career, if I got hit from a distance and barely felt it I would have carried on. I am sure many people have done this, especially if they had walked for a long distance beforehand. I assure you this only happened a couple of times! I have never been called out for non hit taking.

 

The reason why I stopped? ...It sounds a bit selfish but by ignoring hits, it felt like it spoiled MY enjoyment for the game more then spoiled the game for my fellow players.

 

There is just no point in cheating unless you're getting some sort of narcissistic thrill in having an unfair advantage and completely ignoring any feelings of guilt. 

 

If people do not understand what guilt is, it is unlikely they will stop not hit taking as they would deflect the blame elsewhere and just move to another site. So if it was a persistent offender I would encourage a full ban/Zero Tolerence. If it's just the one off, pull them up on it, "humiliate" them a bit and see what they do after. Lapses in judgement happen all the time, even to seasoned players in the heat of the moment. 

 

Of course after those first few skirmishes I now always call my hits, even to my detriment. When its a CQB, even if I hit the guy first and then he pulls the trigger and hits me, I still call the hit and I don't get anywhere! 

[ImTriggerHappy]

16 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

 

Again I get what you are saying but asking players who attend regularly to be player marshals in my opinion just doesn't work. I don't play at the site I work at simply because I wouldn't want to even run the risk of people complaining of preferential treatment or put the ethos of the staff and rules into question (to some extent). I like the idea of the bright tape but at the same time I feel if they don't listen to the advice on the second occasion at our place they just get sin binned and sent back to safe zone.

We have staff that if we are busy will leave the safe zone down a person so we can have an extra body on the ground so we can police large numbers of players, having said that I cant remember the ratio of marshals to players off the top of my head that is required by our insurance (and I'm sure everyone's may be different).

 

On another note has anyone ever encountered either physical or verbal aggression at a game before?

 

 

 

People employed as player marshals can be an advantage but you have to be careful who you choose as some will power trip. We used it to great effect but then we were very strict on how we conducted the role and anybody who abused it would get banned from fulfilling that again. Players should never just get picked though.

 

Bright tape on a cheater is parading and goes against what I believe is respectful treatment.

 

As for witnessing aggressive behaviour yes a few times, it is what pushed me into marshalling.

 

[clumpyedge]

3 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

For hit dodging, or cheat calling, sure, mistakes are made, and adrenaline Tourette's does kick in.

 

My issue is that sites should say only what they mean, and mean everything that they say.

 

Per the example above, if chronoing is declared to be mandatory, and people are given every chance and repeated instructions to get tested and tagged, including right before the first game, then finding an untagged gun in game should be a go-home offence.  No testing in game, no excuses, no need for a lecture even (they didn't listen before, why would they listen now?), just bounce them off site and accept the sour grapes Facebook review that will inevitably follow.

 

Same for hot guns.  I'm not sure how "deliberate" factors into it, since nobody to whom that applies is going to fess up to it.  It's hot, or it's not, the BB and eyepro doesn't care about the intent.  Granted, there's an edge case for gas guns that were tested cold and then heated up during the day.  But again, chronos tend to be available throughout the day, and if you're in doubt, you can test before a game.

 

 

Fully agree on the chrono issue. Anything to do with safety is paramount, we regularly test players in the game zone either as they are at their respawn or on their way back to it so not to cause any delay in being back in game too much. Testing in game is appropriate but only when the gun has passed chrono but for example the case of gas guns they can increase throughout the day especially if the player doesn't have use of some form of power restriction i.e. NPAS.

Personally speaking I'd like to run our site chrono for a certain amount of time in the morning (say between 8:45-9:45) that's a full hour and considering we open from 8:15 that's plenty and something I'm asking to implement. Anyone that doesn't chrono in that time frame doesn't play the first game. It shouldnt be mine and everyone else's fault you either cant turn up to site on time or have a battery in a gun with a few beebs in a mag and just get it done and out the way. The amount of people that seem to have their priorities mixed up when arriving on site beggers belief. Why spend up until the last minute sorting your shit out when its as simple as couple of taps on a speed loader or a quick pour from a bottle and straight over, after that you can play around with pouches and shit all you like up until brief. You are there all day so you can discuss what brand you like, what your K/D ratio and all that other bollocks later.

 

Sorry.. rant

1 minute ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

 

People employed as player marshals can be an advantage but you have to be careful who you choose as some will power trip. We used it to great effect but then we were very strict on how we conducted the role and anybody who abused it would get banned from fulfilling that again. Players should never just get picked though.

 

Bright tape on a cheater is parading and goes against what I believe is respectful treatment.

 

As for witnessing aggressive behaviour yes a few times, it is what pushed me into marshalling.

 

 

Fair enough, I would rather that person be employed by the site that way any recourse can be directly attributable to the site and not just someone they have picked to do the job on the day (fair enough you may know them well but how do other non regular players distinguish them from normal staff?)

 

Agree on the bright tape thing. Quiet word is all that's needed, if its not enough player should get sin binned or chucked depending on issue.

 

Ever had someone be aggressive to you while acting as a marshal? I had a player once call family members to come down to "sort me out" because he didn't like being told to shut up during the safety brief after being told twice politely to stop talking.

[ImTriggerHappy]

21 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

 

Fair enough, I would rather that person be employed by the site that way any recourse can be directly attributable to the site and not just someone they have picked to do the job on the day (fair enough you may know them well but how do other non regular players distinguish them from normal staff?)

 

Agree on the bright tape thing. Quiet word is all that's needed, if its not enough player should get sin binned or chucked depending on issue.

 

Ever had someone be aggressive to you while acting as a marshal? I had a player once call family members to come down to "sort me out" because he didn't like being told to shut up during the safety brief after being told twice politely to stop talking.

 

All the PMs carried high vis in a dump pouch so it could be pulled when necessary. If you did pull it you went back to regen after so no one could accuse you of using it to your advantage.

 

Had a few players try and argue in a manner I didn't appreciate but outright aggression towards me not really. Saw a couple get aggressive with marshals that I had to step in on though. I have a very no nonsense demeanor that I think defuses people from getting too stroppy.

 

 

[clumpyedge]

25 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

 

All the PMs carried high vis in a dump pouch so it could be pulled when necessary. If you did pull it you went back to regen after so no one could accuse you of using it to your advantage.

 

Had a few players try and argue in a manner I didn't appreciate but outright aggression towards me not really. Saw a couple get aggressive with marshals that I had to step in on though. I have a very no nonsense demeanor that I think defuses people from getting too stroppy.

 

 

 

That's a fair way of doing it!

 

We have a zero tolerance on it but that doesn't mean it doesn't sometimes catch us off guard when some man baby throws his toys out the pram, generally it doesn't happen but I would say over the years I've been marshaling i could count on one hand it has.

[Druid799]

3 hours ago, clumpyedge said:

 

Again I get what you are saying but asking players who attend regularly to be player marshals in my opinion just doesn't work. I don't play at the site I work at simply because I wouldn't want to even run the risk of people complaining of preferential treatment or put the ethos of the staff and rules into question (to some extent). I like the idea of the bright tape but at the same time I feel if they don't listen to the advice on the second occasion at our place they just get sin binned and sent back to safe zone.

We have staff that if we are busy will leave the safe zone down a person so we can have an extra body on the ground so we can police large numbers of players, having said that I cant remember the ratio of marshals to players off the top of my head that is required by our insurance (and I'm sure everyone's may be different).

 

On another note has anyone ever encountered either physical or verbal aggression at a game before?

 

 

Hand on heart I can say I’ve never seen or heard of any accusations of favoritism or power tripping happening , as I said the only time they can step in is a safety issue rest of the time there purely extra ‘eyes and ears’ on the field for the marshaling team .

just being a regular won’t get you the job you have to be well known AND respected by other players to even be considered to be asked , and believe me if even for a minute he thought you were abusing the position the boss would nip that in the bud VERY quickly ! 

[clumpyedge]

18 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

Hand on heart I can say I’ve never seen or heard of any accusations of favoritism or power tripping happening , as I said the only time they can step in is a safety issue rest of the time there purely extra ‘eyes and ears’ on the field for the marshaling team .

just being a regular won’t get you the job you have to be well known AND respected by other players to even be considered to be asked , and believe me if even for a minute he thought you were abusing the position the boss would nip that in the bud VERY quickly ! 

 

Fair play, I assumed you meant they took full marshaling responsibilities.

[Nicky blue eyes]

5 hours ago, Asomodai said:

So... I hold my hand up and say that early on in my airsoft career, if I got hit from a distance and barely felt it I would have carried on. I am sure many people have done this, especially if they had walked for a long distance beforehand. I assure you this only happened a couple of times! I have never been called out for non hit taking.

 

The reason why I stopped? ...It sounds a bit selfish but by ignoring hits, it felt like it spoiled MY enjoyment for the game more then spoiled the game for my fellow players.

 

There is just no point in cheating unless you're getting some sort of narcissistic thrill in having an unfair advantage and completely ignoring any feelings of guilt. 

 

If people do not understand what guilt is, it is unlikely they will stop not hit taking as they would deflect the blame elsewhere and just move to another site. So if it was a persistent offender I would encourage a full ban/Zero Tolerence. If it's just the one off, pull them up on it, "humiliate" them a bit and see what they do after. Lapses in judgement happen all the time, even to seasoned players in the heat of the moment. 

 

Of course after those first few skirmishes I now always call my hits, even to my detriment. When its a CQB, even if I hit the guy first and then he pulls the trigger and hits me, I still call the hit and I don't get anywhere! 

I've now played for about 3 years  and also made some dodgy calls on hits early on. You live and learn... hopefully. And not always listening to a briefing properly i.e. team a has unlimited lives team b doesnt etc. If its a first time thing then I think a  quiet word soon sorts it out. No need to embarrass people or humiliate them. If they keep doing it the yes take things up a notch. As you say even experianced players make bad desicions from time to time. To me the term cheat means someone that breaks the rules habitually.  Just my take on it.

[Seth_Erebor]

On 23/04/2019 at 16:54, Adolf Hamster said:

So it seems i'm not alone then in seeing sites with all mouth and no trousers.

 

They made a big talk at the start of the day about spot checking folk, cant say i saw or heard of it happen though.

 

The hit taking is a tricky one, i know a common one is whining about rentals doing it but tbh i've never had too many issues with that and when it has happened it's been more a case of "aww its cute he tried".

 

However i have absolutely zero sympathy for folk who are experienced doing it. We've all had those hits we didn't feel but this guy is something else, 1j might not sound like much energy but i'm pretty sure at 3 feet in the ribcage with nothing but a ubacs to stop it you'd notice.

 

I'd love to vote with my wallet, indeed i did for a few months, but sadly choices for outdoor sites in my area aren't exactly abundant.

 

What kind of player numbers would an outdoor site get near you?

[Pdubyuh]

We've had people out for a game, a dead player was standing talking to me, a marshal with his hand up and a younger player ran up and Moscarted him in the face that was a game out to calm down. We've also banned people, there was a player who we had loads of reports about non hit taking so we test fired him and he turned round and offered out the person that had just shot him, 5 marshals were on him like white on rice, we told him it was a test fire as we has loads of reports about him, he then offered to fight the marshals so it was "pack  up and sod off and dont come back" 

[Rogerborg]

28 minutes ago, Seth_K said:

What kind of player numbers would an outdoor site get near you?

 

Intensifies...

 

[Seth_Erebor]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Intensifies...

 

 

yeah, wasn't very subtle, was it. lol

[Adolf Hamster]

3 hours ago, Seth_K said:

 

What kind of player numbers would an outdoor site get near you?

 

most places have 20-30 regulars, occasionally you can see north of 100 on a skirmish. special events can go over 200 which is an absolute maelstrom as the site really isn't big enough for that many people.

 

i've played days with as few as 6 folk, which ironically were pretty fun days when it was all the kind of people you can rely on to be honest. shame that place closed down.

[Immortal]

1 hour ago, Seth_K said:

 

yeah, wasn't very subtle, was it. lol

 

As guilty as a puppy sitting next to a poo.

[Nodnol]

In my brief time playing airsoft, I’ve only come across one person that was persistently cheating with not calling their hits. 

 

My local CQB site, where I’ve only ever played at, seem pretty fair and thorough. 

 

With the gentleman in question, he was spoken to by a Marshall, spoken to again, asked to sit out a game. He left in a huff. They also put a mark against his name on their database (everyone, even guests, signs a waiver for H&S and is put on their system). 

 

The marshalls are always very vocal and clear about cheating. They also take people moaning about it just as seriously. If you have a problem, you go to a marshall, and they deal with it. The CQB site I play at has an elevated “tower” in the middle of the site, and if they need to they’ll walk the site too. It’s not huge (10v10 is pretty crazy), so they can monitor players pointed out to them quite easily.

 

They will also “test hit” people; even if you haven’t been brought to their attention, they’ll do random tests to make sure everyone is playing fairly. 

 

It it works really well, and I’ve only ever had a good experience there, and a lot of the regulars comment on how they find it a good place to play too. 

 

They must be doing something right; they now run two games on a Saturday and Sunday, and they’ve just dropped the price too. If you’re a first timer, you only have to pay for the rental, and not the game. 

[Seth_Erebor]

4 hours ago, Immortal said:

 

As guilty as a puppy sitting next to a poo.

 

🤣

 

 

[Druid799]

My two homes sites average between 50-80 at the larger site at Cribbs causeway Bristol and 30-50 at the smaller site near Portishead . So on the the high player number gamedays they do really need the player marshals to help ‘police’ the site . 

[clumpyedge]

On 26/04/2019 at 18:10, Druid799 said:

My two homes sites average between 50-80 at the larger site at Cribbs causeway Bristol and 30-50 at the smaller site near Portishead . So on the the high player number gamedays they do really need the player marshals to help ‘police’ the site . 

 

50-80?! Mate we marshal anywhere up to 130 players and don’t need player marshals, issues are few and far between.

[ImTriggerHappy]

41 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

 

50-80?! Mate we marshal anywhere up to 130 players and don’t need player marshals, issues are few and far between.

 

I think the problem is that having some marshals playing is a good thing but having players marshalling is not.

 

All marshals should be held to a very strict code because they are paid employees you can't do that with players. You also get the ones who get off on feeling like they are elite in someway. Airsoft does attract a very large element of those that have been on the outside of social norms or even bullied and once people like that get a bit of power they too often start flexing.

 

Go to any site and you can spot the sycophants who snuggle up to marshals and unfortunately it seems the norm that those are the ones who get player privileges and start being a dick.

[Tackle]

surely marshals need to have experience of the game to effectively marshal, at the very least ?.

BUT

there are no guarantee's in anything, a person can excel, can be mediocre, or can be shockingly shite, at literally anything in life, much of the responsibility must rest with the site owner to choose wisely & nurture his "employees" so that they meet his expectations as part of a business model, if in their role, maybe we should be looking up the chain at the boss & his skills & ethics, or lack of.

not wanting to start another row, but I think apocalypse in Kent is a good example of this, poor management leading to piss poor marshalling & inevitably cheating players.

Shit rolls downhill 😉

[clumpyedge]

53 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

 

I think the problem is that having some marshals playing is a good thing but having players marshalling is not.

 

All marshals should be held to a very strict code because they are paid employees you can't do that with players. You also get the ones who get off on feeling like they are elite in someway. Airsoft does attract a very large element of those that have been on the outside of social norms or even bullied and once people like that get a bit of power they too often start flexing.

 

Go to any site and you can spot the sycophants who snuggle up to marshals and unfortunately it seems the norm that those are the ones who get player privileges and start being a dick.

 

True, hadn't thought of it like that and you are 100% right on the last part.

 

25 minutes ago, Tackle said:

 I think apocalypse in Kent is a good example of this, poor management leading to piss poor marshalling & inevitably cheating players.

Shit rolls downhill 😉

 

Funny you're not the only person to say that about that site.

[EvilMonkee]

Just been to a Vietnam game this weekend.  104 players on site, I am not aware of a single issue of non hit taking.   There may have been some but I certainly didn't hear any whinging at all from our side.  This is why I play historical airsoft and try to avoid skirmishes.  

 

TBH at skirmishes these days I expect non hit taking, what bothers me far more is blind firing.