Do cameras help prevent cheats???

[Luke85]

First off let me just apologise for brining up cheating, I know its something that has been and continues to be discussed seemingly endlessly in airsoft. That said Im just interested in getting some opinions on cameras before going out and spending any money on one, as Im thinking of getting a rifle mounted camera mainly to highlight and help combat some players not calling hits. Recently a team has started playing at my local field, mostly decent guys, but a few who Im pretty sure suck at calling hits. In a game I played just this last weekend I must have shot one of them 15 times or more before he called it. I know you don't always feel the shots, especially whilst making a dash etc, but this was blatant. Anyway, before I get too of track Im just wandering if anyone who plays with cameras find that it helps prevent cheats at all, either at the time because they know they might be been filmed, or later on when footage can be reviewed and shown to the field staff etc. I'd also just be curious myself to watch footage back myself first and maybe see if I really am hitting people and they're cheating or if its me that's missing before I raise an issue. Ive not said anything yet, I don't want to make a fuss and at the end of the day its just a game, I don't take it super serious, but it was getting really frustrating at times, especially when someone your certain you've just shot a bunch of times then shoots you and you call the hit immediately. So, does anyone find that using a camera can help stop cheating at all? and If so, any recommendations for a good rifle mounted camera would be appreciated. Thanks.

[lemon191]

No.. the only way to prevent cheating is players providing decent info to marshalls at the time and marshalls who act on that. 

Cameras have been shown plenty of times to be not clear enough to actually show a bb hitting at distance and I doubt many sites will act off some random footage sent after the gameday once they can't do much about it. 

[Vulpiness]

Depends on the cheating, not calling hits, not so much, going out of bounds or camping spawn, that's another matter.

[BigStew]

Most footage from gun cams don't show anywhere enough detail to identify the person let alone see if some one was hit. You are also saying pretty sure they suck at taking their hits. Unless you can say you 100% hit them, you didn't hit them. I have found mostly there isn't that much non hit taking and most people think their toy gun is laser straight with 150m range. 

[Adolf Hamster]

i dont think so, it's rare to see engagements even on the likes of youtube where they're using pretty good cameras that the bb impact is plainly visible, especially doesn't help when they edit in those stupid bf style hit markers.

 

however, even if you get that footage that shows someone getting hit it's still a case of being reliant on decent marshalls and a decent site to take appropriate action, and if you have decent marshalling then you don't need the camera.

 

it must also be noted that just because someone has a camera doesn't mean they're immune from cheating themselves, hell i've seen novritsch wannabe's do some shocking cheating.

 

what stops cheaters is having marshalls who are in the right places on the field (ie close enough to see players being hit rather than 20+m off to the side), who actually pay attention to players and act on complaints, who carry chrono's to spot check and pistols to honesty check and the key thing is that they will take someone off the site and ban them if caught out. 

[lemon191]

14 minutes ago, BigStew said:

Most footage from gun cams don't show anywhere enough detail to identify the person let alone see if some one was hit. You are also saying pretty sure they suck at taking their hits. Unless you can say you 100% hit them, you didn't hit them. I have found mostly there isn't that much non hit taking and most people think their toy gun is laser straight with 150m range. 

 

Hit the nail on the head there,as far as I'm concerned i would only report someone for cheating if I saw several of my BBs bouncing off him (one can be not felt/heard quite easily where as several shots is alot less likely) . The amount of people I have seen in woodland scenarios shoot at people clearly out of range and then sit there And complain to the people next to them about how he must have hit him loads of times is ridiculous, and people seem to forget that small twigs /undergrowth can knock a bb completely off course. 

[Rogerborg]

I agree with the above, I don't think it'll make a blind bit of difference unless the site actively welcomes after-action video and is prepared to identify and ban people (and their money) based on it.

 

Speak to the marshals on the day.  If they deal with it, it's dealt with.  If they don't deal with it, then video after the fact isn't going to help.  It'll probably just wind you up more.

 

If you do go down this route, consider fiddling with the lens to create a zoom camera.

 

 

[kasaran]

Only way i can see that would stop cheaters is that scottish site someone linked here a while back where the marshals 'test shoot' players to make sure they call the hits.  They then go over and tell them they are still in the game.  The logic being that any hit at any time might be from a marshal so your more likely to call it.

 

Also means the marshals stay were the action is. So are more likely to catch untowards

 

 

[Arwen]

I've came across a fair few non hit takers, where you can see the bb's bouncing off their chests/heads/whatever and nothing happens about it.  I now simply move to another playing area. I cannot be arsed to get wound up and annoyed by non-hit takers any more.

I had a camera on my aeg for a while, you need to be very close to actually see the bb hit, or change the lens on the camera so it acts as a scope cam. 

Personally encouraging fair play and penalising repeat offenders is my preference, rather than constant filming of each other. 

 

I have also been accused of non-hit taking. Which was reported to the marshals who got the complainers (there was a few of them) to try and hit me while they watched through a scope. The complainers bb's were falling a good 15ft consistently in front of me. Marshals enlightened them to this news, that although I could reach them, that doesn't automatically mean they can reach me. 

 

[Luke85]

Appreciate the responses. Just to clarify, I obviously can't always be sure shots are hitting, especially not beyond 30m. I'm well aware of the very limited effective range of even a top end Airsoft gun, and any shots Im not sure about I'll always give people the benefit of the doubt. In the incident I referred to and similar ones recently though I'm talking about 10-20m max ranges where I have seen my shots hit, seen them re-adjust behind cover because they know they can be shot (because I just shot them) where they are/were. Im certainly not shooting at people half the field away and then complaining about cheats. I don't even bother trying to shoot people beyond what I know to be the effective range of my gun. Anyway, was just wandering about the cameras idea really, but the genral consensus seems to be just take it up with the field marshals. I just don't like making a fuss and I know that not hearing or feeling a shot is easily done sometimes, just a thought to help highlight to blatant cheating.

[Rogerborg]

8 hours ago, Luke85 said:

help highlight to blatant cheating

 

How does highlighting it help?  I mean, compared to finding a marshal at the time?

 

Personally I detest "OMFG airsoft CHEATER!!!" clickbait YouTube videos.  They normalise it, get fair players wound up, and folk who aren't there to play fair are never going to know or care that they've been "caught" if it wasn't dealt with on site.

[lemon191]

40 minutes ago, Luke85 said:

 but the genral consensus seems to be just take it up with the field marshals. I just don't like making a fuss and I know that not hearing or feeling a shot is easily done sometimes, just a thought to help highlight to blatant cheating.

It's not about kicking up a fuss, as long as you approach the marshalls with the facts of what happened they will make their own decision after that. If it's a genuine cheater they will continue and get caught and let's face it, if they are happy to cheat a camera is going to make very little difference to them. 

 

 

[Luke85]

Not even if they are regular players at that site, shown and proven to be cheating on film. Dont understand how that wouldnt help as the marshals would be aware then, keep an extra keen eye on them and they could be taken aside for a quiet word and reminder that they've been caught cheating and if it continues they'll be banned before the next game there. I get what people are saying, its best just to raise the issue there and then with Marshals, I just hate complaining, and without proof its ultimately there word against yours. Just thought a camera would help and eliminate any doubt, not just of shots hitting, but players being hit, knowing they've been hit and still not calling it.

 

[lemon191]

9 minutes ago, Luke85 said:

Not even if they are regular players at that site, shown and proven to be cheating on film. Dont understand how that wouldnt help as the marshals would be aware then, keep an extra keen eye on them and they could be taken aside for a quiet word and reminder that they've been caught cheating and if it continues they'll be banned before the next game there. I get what people are saying, its best just to raise the issue there and then with Marshals, I just hate complaining, and without proof its ultimately there word against yours. Just thought a camera would help and eliminate any doubt, not just of shots hitting, but players being hit, knowing they've been hit and still not calling it.

 

Any decent Marshall will not base a decision off of one complaint or video of cheating anyway so his word v mine isnt a issue. they will get the complaint then tail the person themselves and come to their own conclusion, hence why it's important to provide accurate descriptions above anything else and if your close enough to say he's cheating your close enough to be able to ID what he is wearing etc (with the exception of NAE where they ask for the player number which for the most part is going to be near impossible to see unless you are really close..) the problem with cameras is unless they are wearing something that really stands out to someone watching it back that wasn't there the person could be any number of people alot of the time. it wouldn't be the first time a site/ Marshall has known already and has turned a blind eye for whatever reasons but if that's the case genuine players will realise themselves and take their money else where. 

 

Bottom line is don't waste your money on cameras to detect cheats,  buy cameras because you enjoy filming /editing game days and treat catching a cheater or 2 as a bonus if it happens. 

[Seth_Erebor]

You can come at this from a few angles.

 

1. Culture: Reputation, does it matter? Should we make it matter?
2. In-game: Pistol checks and player marshals
3. Post-game: Footage should be reviewed

 

Combine that and you can cut out xx% of the cheating. There are other methods but no current site could afford them. That is to ID players and impacts, I've seen it and can confirm it works.

 

It comes down to respect for your fellow player, that has to be passed down to the next generation.

Who teaches the rental kids how to be a good player, etc.

Anyway... almost the weekend now.

[Prisce]

No, no they don’t. 

 

Cheat calling is just as bad as cheating. 

 

If someone’s going to cheat, nothings going to stop them, just tell the marshalls and get them kicked off site. 

 

Once half the sites in his area have booted the cheating arsehole he may learn.

[PopRocket123]

No but they're an excellent way to get targeted by everyone on the other team. I've seen a few people around with cameras everywhere and if they're on my team they're spending a lot of time going back and forth from the respawn of if they're on the other team then they're getting shot by me. I'm not a vindictive person but it's just that much more satisfying when you see the go pro

[Skara]

Cameras don't do anything to prevent cheating. They can only show evidence, and even then you need a million FPS at 8K resolution and a decent 35 to 50mm lens. Forget about using a GoPro for that.

 

Also, do you really think people are going to sit there for 20 minutes while you connect your phone to the camera and look for the right second in the right clip?

 

There's only 2 things you can do to a cheater:

 

- Shoot him until he calls it;

- Switch to full auto and shoot him until he calls it. (it's one of the reasons why we carry drum mags at tournaments, to avoid blatant cheating)

 

You can also get a marshall to check on the guy, but i'm pretty sure he'll start behaving as soon as he sees the bright vest moving towards him.

[Druid799]

I’m with everyone saying nope won’t make a difference cheaters cheat no matter what evidence there is against them  , I’d say best way to deal with it is get your face known as an honorable player , when you get hit give a nice loud Hit and if it was a good shot let the other player know they nailed you good and proper ! Stuff like that gets you noticed for the right reasons .

that way your word carries a bit more weight when you do make a report BUT remember we all miss call hits wether against us or other players at times (on purpose or not) so make sure your positive . 👍

[Luke85]

10 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

BUT remember we all miss call hits wether against us or other players at times (on purpose or not) so make sure your positive . 

Absolutely, thats why I haven't reported it before. Also I just dont want to be the guy bitching about cheaters as my general attitude is just shrug and get on with it, here to have a good time not a good moan. Just the instances lately have been blatant and annoyed me a bit. Cant really be arsed running round with a camera too so thats why I asked if it was even worthwhile first. 

[BigStew]

20 minutes ago, Skara said:

Cameras don't do anything to prevent cheating. They can only show evidence, and even then you need a million FPS at 8K resolution and a decent 35 to 50mm lens. Forget about using a GoPro for that.

 

Also, do you really think people are going to sit there for 20 minutes while you connect your phone to the camera and look for the right second in the right clip?

 

There's only 2 things you can do to a cheater:

 

- Shoot him until he calls it;

- Switch to full auto and shoot him until he calls it. (it's one of the reasons why we carry drum mags at tournaments, to avoid blatant cheating)

 

You can also get a marshall to check on the guy, but i'm pretty sure he'll start behaving as soon as he sees the bright vest moving towards him.

i used to think that way. but the issue is most likely you are just are missing you go full auto on some you have just over killed someone for your perceived slight. Don't know about you but getting full auto rattled hurts and pisses you off. so now the guy you just hosed is at best making  a complaint to the marshals about your over kill or they are telling everyone watch out for the dick that hoses people. 

 

Taking action into our own hands snowballs and can make a good day bad. So if you think someone is not taking their hits 99.9% you are not hitting them. if you see the strike there are two thing to do follow up shot to make sure ( I always double tap but up to yourself) and two get a good description and report them to the marshals. 

[Adolf Hamster]

17 minutes ago, BigStew said:

i used to think that way. but the issue is most likely you are just are missing you go full auto on some you have just over killed someone for your perceived slight. Don't know about you but getting full auto rattled hurts and pisses you off. so now the guy you just hosed is at best making  a complaint to the marshals about your over kill or they are telling everyone watch out for the dick that hoses people. 

 

Taking action into our own hands snowballs and can make a good day bad. So if you think someone is not taking their hits 99.9% you are not hitting them. if you see the strike there are two thing to do follow up shot to make sure ( I always double tap but up to yourself) and two get a good description and report them to the marshals. 

 

it does indeed snowball, but my logic is if you call from just 1 hit that's all i'll send you.

 

overshooting is only overshooting if you continue beyond the hit call (with the exception of any that are in the air, that happens to us all)

[Vulpiness]

On another note, everyone "cheats": I spend half my second game in wolly pully and leather jacket looking around at the sky wondering why the fuck it sounded like rain when it wasn't raining, I was enlightened in very short order. 

You can get hit in a full mag pouch and don't hear it because there was a grenade going off over there, or it's your first time in a full plate carrier, not taking hits, even if you do hit someone, just happens,  fact of the game, then there are those rentals in black shellsuits like a cheepo cosplay of a goth, who just exhume some kind o force field that cause bbs to suddenly swerve at 110* 

[BigStew]

13 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

it does indeed snowball, but my logic is if you call from just 1 hit that's all i'll send you.

 

overshooting is only overshooting if you continue beyond the hit call (with the exception of any that are in the air, that happens to us all)

i've taken hits from rain drops but it is easy not to feel a hit.

 

[DopeYourScope]

I have been on both ends of the stick. I have been accused of non hit taking with a marshall stood next to me as I shout their pellets aren't even reaching within 20ft of me and then wondering why my BASR can reach them. (chances are your M4 cannot reach 250ft/ ~75m and if it could it won't be particularly accurate.) 
On the other hand I have watched pellets hit players and them not take it, yes with all the kit people now carry (dummy plates and some weirdos wearing actual kevlar {why?} and 16 stanags all stacked on their chests) they won't feel it, now with the bolty I aim for something fleshy (arse, legs, arms and if necessary head.)

 

It will be all well and good recording all of the cheaters however how are you going to PID those guys post game? and what repercussions are you thinking of? if someone gets banned from one site they'll move onto the next.