Would Airsoft be bigger in the UK without ukara?

[EvilMonkee]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

Bogus premise is indeed bogus.  The issue is VCRA 2006, not any of the ways around it that allow retailers, importers and airsoft to exist.

 

 

You didn't have to.

 

If you were stopped going to or from a skirmish in possession of a RIF, or an IF, and required to provide a reasonable excuse for purposes of Firearms Act 1968 S19 (the proof whereof lies on you) what would you say?  "Because UKARA," or in your case "Just Cos", is not sufficient as an excuse for possession in public, and neither is it necessary as a defence to modifying an IF into a RIF.

 

And as you've pointed out yourself, there are ways to get a retailer to sell you a RIF independently of ever having played airsoft.

 

Actually, I've just spotted the delicious irony there.  The one retailer that I know accepts Just Cos as their defence is https://www.airsoftworld.net

 

Guess who runs the UKARA scheme?

 

 

UKARA is ran by Frank Bothamly at Fire Support not Airsoft World AFAIK

[ImTriggerHappy]

3 minutes ago, EvilMonkee said:

 

UKARA is ran by Frank Bothamly at Fire Support not Airsoft World AFAIK

Yep

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, CKinnerley said:

 

I think that last point might well be because paintball is seemingly dying off whereas airsoft has grown hugely.  I've seen airsoft societies at absolutely tons of unis, thriving ones at that.

 

I'm not aware of any statistics on paintball player numbers or numbers of active paintball retailers vs the same numbers for airsoft, but the CoD generation (which is now the PUBG/Fortnite generation) is, I would imagine, going to be far more taken in by airsoft when you've got social media behemoths like LadBible sharing Novritsch videos.  I thoroughly dislike both of those entities, but I think the fact remains.

 

I have seen some Paintball trade stats over the years, I can’t recall the scale of them as I’m currently sat in a field on the cider

 

I wouldn’t say that you see people marketing people because it’s in decline, but due to the competition

Paintball as an occasional activity for the rentals is the core market.  This is where you see the dominator of Delta Force and their ticket sellers International Paintball Games.  Other sites market themselves and leaflet people to compete against Delta Force 

 

Regular players are hard to quantify but are in the minority, there are more people playing in the CPPS national tournament then will join the UKPSF as player members as the national body

 

I see airsoft as being bigger than Paintball in the own gunners / regular players 

But it’s hard to read that some airsoft sites are running with volunteer Marshall’s, this implies that either the site is unsustainable or the owners are rubbing their hands in glee with the volunteers doing it for free

 

Airsoft fits in well with experience days such as zombie experiences etc, which isn’t playing the game but the average guy off the street paying good money for a fun day out 

 

 

 

[MisterG]

Had I known about UKARA before my first skirmish, it might have put me off.  I only found out about it after having played and enjoyed it enough to not be bothered after all.

 

 

[mattaddiction]

I don't really think UKARA has any bearing on the number of participants in the sport, you want to try it, you go to a site and rent...   (of one of us drags you along and sorts out some loner kit for the 'small' armory most of us have...) where does UKARA come in to it?

 

UKARA is only an issue if you want to buy toys...  Not if you want to play?!

 

matt

[Gtech]

6 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

Actually, I've just spotted the delicious irony there.  The one retailer that I know accepts Just Cos as their defence is https://www.airsoftworld.net

 

Guess who runs the UKARA scheme?

 

 

It's not AW  But he was the chairman of UKARA a long time ago, if I'm right he was the very first chair.

 

I also believe he was one of the guys who set up Just-Cos. Ultimately, since the police aren't cracking down on it, it's going to be the wild west - just like UKASA.

Just-Cos has no standing in the VCRA, anyone who's buying it might as well buy without a defence. Airsoft has it's own specific defence. Cosplay is not applied to the VCRA until you get the Home Office to grant a change in law from the 'historical reenactment' statement.

 

Same way that Practical Pistol Shooting didn't get covered in the VCRA.

 

If you're purchasing the RIF with the intent to use it for Airsoft, thus you should be using the Airsoft permitted activity exemption. Anything else puts us in a bad position if it's shown that we are not even monitor our own industry.
 

8 hours ago, STORMZOMBIES said:

 I really wanna see a massive airsoft superstore like Evike in the UK as well as more fields and field variety. What do other people think about this topic please share your thoughts.

 

I think it's terrible, Evike have the monopoly and that stops local retailers massively. I'd be quite gutted if we were limited by choice to only 1 big retailer, competition is good in my eyes. Mr. Evike also see the UK Market as far too small. 

 

4 hours ago, jcheeseright said:

 

Really? Before 2006 anyone could buy a RIF and I don’t remember there being chaos on the streets! 

 

It was to do with the way the police recorded crime, they changed it prior (2004?). It meant every call of a gun meant it had to be recorded and passed to armed response, rather than the local bobby taking a look to find little Timmy playing with his friends with a plinker.

As soon as those numbers added up, it served the government's purpose to crack down and look like they're taking action.

[sonofsammo]

14 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

If you were stopped going to or from a skirmish in possession of a RIF, or an IF, and required to provide a reasonable excuse for purposes of Firearms Act 1968 S19 (the proof whereof lies on you) what would you say?  "Because UKARA," or in your case "Just Cos", is not sufficient as an excuse for possession in public, and neither is it necessary as a defence to modifying an IF into a RIF.

 

Sorry if this has been covered before elsewhere - but what is a reasonable excuse wrt the firearms act?
I'm guessing this differs from valid defence?
TIA
 

[Rogerborg]

13 hours ago, Gtech said:

It's not AW  But he was the chairman of UKARA a long time ago, if I'm right he was the very first chair. 

 

Aaah, I was going by the whois address of ukara.org.uk which was a residential address in Fife just down the road from AW.  It's been thrown down the memory hole now, but it wouldn't surprise me to discover that it was originally registered there and never updated.  The actual hosting server currently appears to be located in Germany (boo, hiss).

 

Overheard at a local site, 47 retailers pay in excess of £300 per annum each for access to the UKARA database, which brings in about £15K a year.  UKAPU claim that there are 60,000 active airsofters in the UK. If accurate (it sounds... somewhat optimistic), that's 25p per player, which is pretty good value.

 

Per ukara.org.uk, "The database service is an in house secure system run on UKARA [sic] own dedicated server."  Given that the basic authentication password challenge on a supar-sekrit port can be done over unsecured http, I'd wonder about the "secure" part.  Whether the database itself is simply an Excel spreadsheet (again, as overheard anecdotally) is an exercise for the reader to imagine.

 

 

Quote

Just-Cos has no standing in the VCRA, anyone who's buying it might as well buy without a defence.

 

Why would buyers need a defence?  The risk is all on sellers.  If AW wants to argue that cosplay is "theatrical performance", that's on them.  It bothers me only as much as it might let RIFs get into the paws of wrong 'uns, but as previously noted, an IF and a can of shoplifted black paint is cheaper.

 

 

5 hours ago, sonofsammo said:

Sorry if this has been covered before elsewhere - but what is a reasonable excuse wrt the firearms act?
I'm guessing this differs from valid defence?
TIA

 

If it's not being on the way to or from an airsoft skirmish at an insured site (the nebulous "permitted activity" from the 2007 Amendment), then we're all in trouble.

 

If it is, then that's our defence to modification.

[Arwen]

I'm not sure how much difference UKARA makes, but it certainly didn't put me off playing, or buying a RIF. When I went to buy my first RIF, the UKARA database had not been updated yet with my details, so the shop I was buying from simply rang up my local sites shop, who confirmed who I was and that I was a regular player. No problems. 

 

The only hurdle would have been if I really did not want to hire for 3/4 games. However at my local site, gun hire is included in the walk on fee so it is no added expense. I could see if being annoying if you need to pay a reasonable amount for gun hire on top of a walk on fee. It also gave me time to decide what I wanted and how much I actually wanted to sink into this sport. 

[sonofsammo]

29 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

If it's not being on the way to or from an airsoft skirmish at an insured site (the nebulous "permitted activity" from the 2007 Amendment), then we're all in trouble.

 

I'm guessing transporting between retailer and home?
Between home/tech, tech/home?
 

If you're on your way to or from a skirmish, can you leave them locked in the boot if you have to stop and get out? E.g. pee break / go shop / buy fuel etc....

[Gtech]

2 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Overheard at a local site, 47 retailers pay in excess of £300 per annum each for access to the UKARA database, which brings in about £15K a year.  UKAPU claim that there are 60,000 active airsofters in the UK. If accurate (it sounds... somewhat optimistic), that's 25p per player, which is pretty good value.

  

Per ukara.org.uk, "The database service is an in house secure system run on UKARA [sic] own dedicated server."  Given that the basic authentication password challenge on a supar-sekrit port can be done over unsecured http, I'd wonder about the "secure" part.  Whether the database itself is simply an Excel spreadsheet (again, as overheard anecdotally) is an exercise for the reader to imagine.

 

 

It's less than 47 since the fallout last year - and 60k players was accurate from the conversations we had. However, whether that's 'active' or just on the register is another thing entirely. I'd be interest (but doubt it) whether the statistics could be broken down by Frank and put out there publicly.

I can't say much about the new database, but rest assured you're not wrong 🤯 That's for a different day though.

[MisterG]

I think active and on the database are two different things.  I am pretty active (e.g. 3 skirms this month), but not on the UKARA database.

 

Cheers

 

G

[Adolf Hamster]

30 minutes ago, MisterG said:

I think active and on the database are two different things.  I am pretty active (e.g. 3 skirms this month), but not on the UKARA database.

 

Cheers

 

G

 

they are, the database is just an easy flag to show you're active to retailers that don't know you personally.

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Gtech said:

It's less than 47 since the fallout last year

 

Still 47 at http://ukara.org.uk/#approved

 

Is there rebellion afoot?  I know there have been UKian People Airsofters / People Airsofters of UKia rival schemes in the past, but it seems that UKARA has a monopoly on the market at the moment.

 

 

[Gtech]

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Still 47 at http://ukara.org.uk/#approved

 

Is there rebellion afoot?  I know there have been UKian People Airsofters / People Airsofters of UKia rival schemes in the past, but it seems that UKARA has a monopoly on the market at the moment.

  

 

 

Maybe they've rekindled signups since I last checked, it's been a while. Problem was when the database went off for a few months while they were still asking for renewals.

 

You're right though, there aren't any suitable replacements than UKARA beyond site-defence options. Nothing on the scale that UKARA offers for sure. 

[Tommikka]

9 hours ago, sonofsammo said:

Sorry if this has been covered before elsewhere - but what is a reasonable excuse wrt the firearms act?
I'm guessing this differs from valid defence?
TIA
 

A defence under the VCRA covers the seller that they have established that the buyer is a skirmisher, it’s for theatrical use / renactment etc

 

Reasonable excuse under the firearms act is related to the circumstances when you get stopped by the police etc.

 You may be an airsoft skirmisher but that isn’t necessarily a reasonable excuse to be carrying it around.  If you’re on the way to or from a site in a bag etc then that would be a reasonable excuse, however if it’s slung over your shoulder on show in public then they may not be happy

[Aengus]

Nope. Anybody can rent. Anybody with a greater mental capacity than a potato can tick the box saying they're 18 and buy a two tone. Now time for my "edgy" opinion: If airsoft was less focused on milsim elements (such as realistic guns kit etc.) it would be far more popular. You can't exactly market pretend soldiers to a parent in this modern day can you?

[padraigthesniper]

The whole guns must be two tone bullshit is stupid. Airsoft over here though wouldn't be much bigger without that nonsense though i reckon only 5 percent more people would play it. Too many pussy laws over here somedays its tempting to move to america and just be free... lol

[Adolf Hamster]

16 hours ago, Aengus said:

Now time for my "edgy" opinion: If airsoft was less focused on milsim elements (such as realistic guns kit etc.) it would be far more popular. You can't exactly market pretend soldiers to a parent in this modern day can you?

 

i dunno, i suspect a lot of airsofters are in it for the guns, otherwise we'd all play paintball.

[Nick G]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

i dunno, i suspect a lot of airsofters are in it for the guns, otherwise we'd all play paintball.

I think this is very true, all the people I know are very much gun nuts and the realism is a very big part of the draw. UKARA represents an attempt to self police that I feel should be applauded. I would much rather have this than have some government imposed system or worse have my toys taken away. Yes air guns are not regulated, but that just shows that airsofters are a much more responsible bunch. Yes RIFs can be purchased second hand, but it's not actually that easy unless you are a regular at a site, and given the levels of stupidity and attitude amongst the reality tv generation I fear that there would be more cases of RIFs being misused in public . Lets be honest, we all got up to stuff when we were kids but the behaviour over the last decade has gone way beyond kids having a lark. To be frank , if you have a problem doing the minimal requirements to get a UKARA you probably aren't someone I would be happy to play with 

[Aengus]

9 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

i dunno, i suspect a lot of airsofters are in it for the guns, otherwise we'd all play paintball.

There's realistic guns and gear in paintball why does everyone not play paintball?

[TheFull9]

Not as realistic though, either in aesthetics or function.  And if you want to go for a 'look' (and a good majority of players do) you'll be scrubbing paint constantly.  Plus the ammo is cheaper, less competition mindset etc etc etc that's all been done before.

[E21A]

4 hours ago, Aengus said:

There's realistic guns and gear in paintball why does everyone not play paintball?

 

Cos paintball sucks dick for money, obvs 😂

[Gtech]

20 hours ago, padraigthesniper said:

The whole guns must be two tone bullshit is stupid. Airsoft over here though wouldn't be much bigger without that nonsense though i reckon only 5 percent more people would play it. Too many pussy laws over here somedays its tempting to move to america and just be free... lol

 

We got our permitted defence in the VCRA due to the realism; which enables us to stay immersed during our law or military scenario reenactments  
 

In America, generally speaking, imitation firearms must have an orange tip during shipping and transportation. You also must be over 18 to buy one over the counter. Some states require that orange tip even while playing, so it's not entirely the 'land of the free.'

 

The fact that 22 people have been fatally shot by local law enforcement after carrying or brandishing airsoft guns should tell you that they're going to clamp down even harder in the future.

 

 

[Tommikka]

On 29/07/2018 at 08:18, padraigthesniper said:

The whole guns must be two tone bullshit is stupid. Airsoft over here though wouldn't be much bigger without that nonsense though i reckon only 5 percent more people would play it. Too many pussy laws over here somedays its tempting to move to america and just be free... lol

Unlike America where it’s shoot first, ask questions later in the UK we also have cases where kids carry a cheap BB gun and there was at least one incident on CCTV where ordinary kids decided to point their gun at responding armed police. This resulted in a standoff until they dropped the gun.  The policemen couldn’t believe they were going to be shot by kids

 

In America though police respond to a call that tells them a kid has a gun that is probably fake , but gun down Tamar Rice in seconds because he lifts his shirt to show it.

There was also a campaign in America to bring in brightly coloured guns