skarra333 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 It's a big issue and I am genuinely split on which way to go... Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Monty Posted February 22, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 22, 2016 Not 100% to be honest. http://debatewise.org/debates/784-the-uk-should-leave-the-european-union/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Admin proffrink Posted February 22, 2016 Root Admin Share Posted February 22, 2016 <snip> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Lozart Posted February 22, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 22, 2016 Have a read of this before knee jerking on the actual issues: "What did the EU ever do for us?Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping;a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling;a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation;holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.Simon Sweeney, Lecturer in international political economy, University of York" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Lozart Posted February 22, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 22, 2016 It's not perfect but we are without a doubt better off in than out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted February 22, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 22, 2016 Me personally - OUT no question We are not attached to Europe, The Turkey Visa thing is a concern (google it) Immigration is only one issue though You hear of EU court of human rights overturning some of our courts rulings because the possible criminal's cat was inhumanely treated The £55 Million per day figure is blown out of proportion though - though with rebates it seems to come down to £31 Million Which seems to about the say number of the working population aprox However the fees have risen greatly in last 2 or 3 years, think the previous balance or actual costings was £24 Million a day That is 30% increase - wish my salary went up like that And with all the crisis so far wtf will it work out next year ??? However - if the parties that be would like to fully explain just wtf the UK actually gets - I mean factually gets please enlighten me I mean if I got a receipt/bill in a shop I got a full breakdown of where n what was spent exactly.... So if UK is spending £20075000000!!! or 20 billion quid each year from say working population paying £1 or more a day aprox or £365 a year or what ever other crap the maths wanna dress it up Then please enlighten me wtf my money is going if that is not too much to ask..... There are so much bollox floating about but fact is Cameron only just scraped in coz of EU vote So now WE have a choice to make (unless it is going to be rigged) Anyway me personally I think as we have a choice and we are all moaning about EU etc... Then sod it I'm gonna vote to leave - the saying suck it and see If I make wrong choice I'll admit I'm wrong but so many people moan this n that Then when give them the option to vote they have been screaming for... Their bottle goes and think I'll just stick with it - what and then moan some more later Obviously it is not down to me or you but the whole country to decide which most of them can't make up their minds and continue to moan = British public for ya But I'm thinking - wtf Let's suck it & see if the world is flat, planes drop out of skies in 2k, and all the other ooh no best play safe If we screw up and have to go cap in hand then that will please France Germany Brussels no end As for people not trading with UK and it will be difficult etc.... yeah and of course nobody wants to trade with US or China Germany won't want to sell us BMW's - well they can sell them to Spain, Portugal, Italy but would hold ya breath flogging many Greece coz they are skint Look truth be told nobody knows for sure if it will be best IN or OUT But me I'm gonna vote OUT and see once and for all what happens next No expert will persuade me otherwise or I will spend my years wondering what if Vote how YOU feel - I won't hold any grudge as sure many have their strong opinions Just don't believe all the bollox - not even mine, but I did a tiny bit of digging to satisfy my thoughts on the matter Roll on June 23rd and lets get it over with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted February 22, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 22, 2016 The reason trade is so easy within the eurozone is tax, at the moment if you want to export something to France the taxes are either non existent or very small... if you want to trade with the US or China then suddenly things get more expensive. I'll be voting to stay in, not least because immigration is a tiny issue that's been MASSIVELY blown out of proportion by the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters sp00n Posted February 22, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 22, 2016 The problem with Europe is simple, some member states get a fairer deal then others. Let's take France for 2 quick examples, how the hell did they manage to ban the burker??? (Or what ever it's called) And how do they get away with fine'ing people from the uk who drive over there for not having a hi-vis jacket etc, when there own people are not required to have one? And the bill of human rights is a joke, under it a prisoner has rights then an average person. The only people who benefit from it are lawyers! Europe was a good experiment but it's time to end it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted February 22, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 22, 2016 For the record if you look at your GunFire bills you do pay the tax or VAT at a higher rate than UK Now it is not perfect, exporting/importing should be tax free from that country and then you pay duty on arrival in country of destination outside EU etc.... but tax duty is still paid to EU country but not to UK and is higher than 20% However the good ol' customs has not raised the value of goods to value of £28 figure in ooh last 20 years or so We could go on about this all night/week/month(s) but truth be told I'm gonna say wtf and vote to leave Thing is even if you vote yes - at least you got some backbone it is the people who don't vote that need to cease moaning after 23rd June I will vote and sure many others will so therefore we will be entitled to carry on moaning one way or other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rock-climby-Dave Posted February 22, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 22, 2016 Have to say I'm impressed, 8 posts in and there hasn't been a slagging match yet! My vote is well and truly OUT. I'll make no bones about it. My reason is not one that has had ANY media coverage: It's not democratic. God damn, I live in a democracy, I WANT TO VOTE FOR MY LEADERS! Beyond that, the further removed from an individual a decision is made, the less well implemented that decision will be for said individual and the smaller the voice of the individual. What I mean is that you know best for you, but you don't have time to deal with some stuff, like sorting bin collections and maintaining your sewage pipes, so you elect someone to do that for you. They do a pretty reasonable job all things considered, whether you vote left or right wing, your council usually does a reasonable job in your area. Beyond the council is the central government. They tend to NOT do things as efficiently as your council. They don't CARE that there is a pot hole on your road and won't do anything to aid you, the individual. The government is necessary (as far as most are concerned) for bigger picture stuff, large spending for communities that share similar interests, traditions and whose people (for the most part) share similar values. What we've gone and done is add another level of government which we don't directly elect (so becomes very quickly undemocratic, corrupt and no-one knows who is to blame for cockups and financial waste) that tries to bring together countries, whose populations are historically competitive or hostile towards each other, who do not share the same values, traditions or ideas and tell us to 'get along nicely' and obviously, we pay for the privilege. heres an example: Imagine that the counties in england were countries and UKGov. were the EU. UKGov says 'new law! we're going to subsidise Yorkshire puddings at the shops, all counties MUST pay this subsidy because it will benfit everyone equally! :D:D:D:D:D:D'Yorkshirefolk are obviously overjoyed, they're getting cheap puddin's. Great success. Most other counties are ambivalent to this, it doesn't affect them really, I mean Cornwall can have the puddings, but they prefer Icecream anyway. Those bastards in Lancashire are obviously NOT happy. This is a grim day. Yorkshire Puddings, the food of their enemies, has been subsidised but we now have to add more money to the price of Lancashire HotPot to pay the extra tax for the pudding subsidy. What SHOULD happen is this: Yorkshirefolk want puddings subsidised, they raise the taxes themselves as they will benefit from this, maybe an increase on the cost of new whippet puppies will cover it and it seems fair. Cornwall like the idea, so they copy the law that they like but change it slightly to suit their local requirements. Hooray, cheap icecream! Lancashire look over the wall between themselves and 'Gods own county' and see this new law. They don't like it, how could Yorkshire ever come up with any good ideas? Lancashire decide not to copy it as it doesn't benefit their populace in any way, shape or form. THAT is why we should leave. Something about Yorkshire puddings. and now I'm hungry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Moderator Jedi_Master Posted February 22, 2016 Head Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2016 I am with Boris on this one - time to leave the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrover Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Have to say I'm impressed, 8 posts in and there hasn't been a slagging match yet! My vote is well and truly OUT. I'll make no bones about it. My reason is not one that has had ANY media coverage: It's not democratic. God damn, I live in a democracy, I WANT TO VOTE FOR MY LEADERS! Beyond that, the further removed from an individual a decision is made, the less well implemented that decision will be for said individual and the smaller the voice of the individual. What I mean is that you know best for you, but you don't have time to deal with some stuff, like sorting bin collections and maintaining your sewage pipes, so you elect someone to do that for you. They do a pretty reasonable job all things considered, whether you vote left or right wing, your council usually does a reasonable job in your area. Beyond the council is the central government. They tend to NOT do things as efficiently as your council. They don't CARE that there is a pot hole on your road and won't do anything to aid you, the individual. The government is necessary (as far as most are concerned) for bigger picture stuff, large spending for communities that share similar interests, traditions and whose people (for the most part) share similar values. What we've gone and done is add another level of government which we don't directly elect (so becomes very quickly undemocratic, corrupt and no-one knows who is to blame for cockups and financial waste) that tries to bring together countries, whose populations are historically competitive or hostile towards each other, who do not share the same values, traditions or ideas and tell us to 'get along nicely' and obviously, we pay for the privilege. heres an example: Imagine that the counties in england were countries and UKGov. were the EU. UKGov says 'new law! we're going to subsidise Yorkshire puddings at the shops, all counties MUST pay this subsidy because it will benfit everyone equally! :D:D:D:D:D:D' Yorkshirefolk are obviously overjoyed, they're getting cheap puddin's. Great success. Most other counties are ambivalent to this, it doesn't affect them really, I mean Cornwall can have the puddings, but they prefer Icecream anyway. Those bastards in Lancashire are obviously NOT happy. This is a grim day. Yorkshire Puddings, the food of their enemies, has been subsidised but we now have to add more money to the price of Lancashire HotPot to pay the extra tax for the pudding subsidy. What SHOULD happen is this: Yorkshirefolk want puddings subsidised, they raise the taxes themselves as they will benefit from this, maybe an increase on the cost of new whippet puppies will cover it and it seems fair. Cornwall like the idea, so they copy the law that they like but change it slightly to suit their local requirements. Hooray, cheap icecream! Lancashire look over the wall between themselves and 'Gods own county' and see this new law. They don't like it, how could Yorkshire ever come up with any good ideas? Lancashire decide not to copy it as it doesn't benefit their populace in any way, shape or form. THAT is why we should leave. Something about Yorkshire puddings. and now I'm hungry. Hungry Yorkshiremen shouldn't be allowed near keyboards... My vote right now is OUT. I'm happy for Brussels to put something on the table to change my mind, but to be honest, we need a clear, objective, unbiased comparison of the two potential futures on mainstream media to help everyone decide. My old man offered me a ten pound bet today, he thinks that the UK will vote out, Cameron will resign (like Alex Salmon did when he didn't get his way with Scotland) and the Tories will put Boris Johnson in number 10... I might take the bet and hope to God that the lovable idiot isn't allowed the chance... Bo jo that is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacarathe Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I like having human rights... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh95 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 in for sure, we should get some perks too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K@rl Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Am going to be voting in. Trade is much easier as part of the eu for reasons already mentioned tax, etc. I don't see imagination as a massive issue. There are some ludicrous figures banded around but its net migration That people should be looking at. Net migration was on 330000 or so. Yes that may be a record high but look at what that means. We have a strong growing economy that people flock towards. These people come here work hard pay tax and are resonable for very little of the welfer bill. Ask yourself this, if we refuse migrants access who will fill the massive jobs whole we currently have in this country? Am not talking about the 10000 people all applying for one post grad job. I mean the real jobs, the people who travel all this way to work leave there family and life behind them are usually very very driven. They work hard and do so for the same rate as uk citizens. The simple fact is people in this country are lazy. We are very quick to blame others for are own failings. I know that U.K. Businesses would rather higher Britishs citizens but there aren't enough. Let's say we leave and say no more people in the door is closed. How do u propose we staff the nhs? What if all the eu countries stop uk citizens moving their, that's what I would do. I do agree that there needs to be change and I do t think Cameron's steps go far enough but for me we are still better in than out. As my nan would say, it's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Esoterick Posted February 22, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 22, 2016 I like having human rights... This is the main thing encouraging me to vote to stay in the EU. Theresa May has absolutely no idea what she is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Da Mack Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Let's take France for 2 quick examples, how the hell did they manage to ban the burker??? (Or what ever it's called) And how do they get away with fine'ing people from the uk who drive over there for not having a hi-vis jacket etc, when there own people are not required to have one? Any country can ban the burka. It hasn't happened here because the government is against that idea. When you're in another country, you must obey their laws. French citizens must carry hi-vis jackets by law as well, but it's likely French police check GB plates more than FR ones as they know we're less likely to carry the jackets, and they get increased income from fines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkee Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Out. Absolutely. Sovereignty is the key for me. Immigration is all a smoke screen for bigger issues. Go look up TTIP (Transatlantic Trade Investment Partnership). Read the articles on what the EU is negotiating in secret with the USA and tell me its a good thing. Backdoor for NHS privatization, imposition of lax American drug laws and food safety, big companies having even more say in Govt policy. There is a lot more but I will stop there. Seriously, whatever you think go inform yourself about TTIP and the impact it will have. And its being negotiated by the EU with zero say from its citizens. In secret and the Govt is keeping quiet about it. Completely undemocratic bullshit. And thats why I want out... As for the argument that it will be a 'leap in the dark' - no it wont - we coped fine without the EU before we joined it - we only joined in the 70s remember. We also did not vote to join a European superstate we voted to join a free trade zone which we can still do if we leave the EU. Plus remember its just as risky if not more so to stay in the EU as they can't predict what the future will hold either. At least if we have our country back we can be the masters of our own destiny. People who scare monger over jobs going etc etc are silly. The EU doesn't create jobs (the opposite if anything with the regulations on small businesses). If you really think that the EU and the rest of the world are suddenly going to stop trading with us as we are now outside the EU then you are deluded. We are the worlds 5th largest economy and the financial capital of the world, business will adjust and we will continue as we were. Most of our trade isn't to the EU anyway - 56% of our trade is to other nations not the EU. We pay £55m a day to stay in. Thats £20bn per year. That would at a stroke wipe out our defecit and leave enough to give all public sector works a much needed pay rise. I could go on and on but its late. If you take nothing from this post take this - don't believe a thing the Govt tells you - go do some reading on the subject from both sides. Be informed. its not doom and gloom if we leave there will be life after the EU and I look forward to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rock-climby-Dave Posted February 22, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 22, 2016 That would at a stroke wipe out our defecit and leave enough to give all public sector works a much needed pay rise. I hope you mean Doctors, Teachers, Police and Fire crews, not civil servants and bureaucrats here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkee Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I hope you mean Doctors, Teachers, Police and Fire crews, not civil servants and bureaucrats here Yep. And HM Forces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted February 23, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 23, 2016 Have to say I'm impressed, 8 posts in and there hasn't been a slagging match yet! Well I think we got the perfect game mode for The Mall now..... IN Vs OUT - which one is best........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters ImTriggerHappy Posted February 23, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 23, 2016 Well I think we got the perfect game mode for The Mall now..... IN Vs OUT - which one is best........ Mate if you want to come out at the mall thats up to you but maybe its not the right time for such a personal outpouring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted February 23, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 23, 2016 I'm not coming out at the Mall - that would mean bringing a closet as well as all my other junk Just thought we could do Boris Vs Cameron I tend to think of Spidey Vs Goblin asking In or Out and Merkel being the goblin getting the right hump if UK says no to her EU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Sitting Duck Posted February 23, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 23, 2016 Mate if you want to come out at the mall thats up to you but maybe its not the right time for such a personal outpouring. As long as long as look better than that cow Mandy / Hef I will be happy Oh Trigger, I nearly forgot - You still want that Pink G&G Femme Fatale ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters ImTriggerHappy Posted February 23, 2016 Supporters Share Posted February 23, 2016 As long as long as look better than that cow Mandy / Hef I will be happy But he does own some nice underwear, he keeps posting photos of it Oh Trigger, I nearly forgot - You still want that Pink G&G Femme Fatale ??? Nothing wrong with the Femme Fatale, its the only G&G to ever stand out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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