Snitching Vs Warranted Concern.

[Cr0-Magnon]

Two examples from my most recent skirmish (Sunday just gone):

 

1) Player using a blank firing pistol (not sure why). Deafening for those without hearing protection...which seems necessary even in woodland games now.

2) Players with their own zip ties discussing which colour chrono is using this week....they decided they didn't need to bother going through the official procedure, as their gun was "definitely under"

 

Both of the above seemed to be by "regulars"

I know this as when I enquired with a Marshall as to whether blank firing pistols were allowed, the response was "Errrrr....I know who it is, they're a regular'

 

So at which point am I just defending myself/others and where does it cross the line to "tell-tale" territory?

 

 

[Guest JinxDuh]

Blank pistols at a skirmish is ridiculous imo. If it’s a milsim/immersion then fair enough, but I don’t think it’s needed at all in your average Sunday skirmish.
 
Loud noises send me into a panic, one of my old local sites marshals (who was about 13, but that’s another story) decided to constantly fire a blank pistol at the start of games and randomly throughout the games. Made the entire day awful for me ?

[Cr0-Magnon]

I really like this site overall but their teenage Marshalls seem incapable of enforcing rules. Even at chrono they're like "1.2J, LOL alright Mate. Just don't get too close to other players"

[Rogerborg]

That stuff goes straight to the site owner - the first time. Not all bristling and "You must sort this", but "Dunno if you're bothered, but..."

 

Sadly, about half the time, they're not bothered, regardless of what they've been claiming up to that point. I'm constantly lowering my expectations of what to expect from sites, and trying not to get fussed over it.

 

If you're asking about whether to rat out the site here, ehhh, maybe.  It's not likely to put anyone off, and if it does come to the site's attention they will either deny it, or say "We'll definitely sort that" (and then not), so it's really up to you whether you want to get it off your chest.

[Cr0-Magnon]

It's not about ratting out the site, because this kind of thing has happened at most of the ones I've been too. I'm the General Manager of my company, so have no problem confronting people, but would rather switch off at airsoft. I was in the toilet in the safe zone at one site, come out and someone full-autos the toilet door, about 20cm from my unprotected eyes. I approach the young teen group responsible and tell them where they've gone wrong, making sure they remove mags and clear the chambers in a safe direction. However I reported this to the site owner and he stopped me mid-game to find these kids. I'm the one who ended up feeling guilty.

 

Shout-out to South Coast CQB, who were so diligent that they questioned why I was in the staging area between games. I'd rather be watched too closely, than not at all.

[Badgerlicious]

When safety becomes a concern, such as in this case, take it to the staff. If they aren't bothered, then they don't deserve your money, or anyone's money. 

 

And you'll probably feel a whole lot more guilty if you give someone a pass for a near miss and they end up blinding some poor bugger taking a dump. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Badgerlicious

[Guest JinxDuh]

21 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

their teenage Marshalls seem incapable of enforcing rules

Same problem me and many others had with the site I mentioned too. A fair few people have stopped playing there based on poor marshalling from literal teenagers. 

[Tommikka]

Possession of and the discharging of a firearm in a public place ?

 

I hope that he has his ‘good reason’ lined up.

 

If he’s providing SFX, then I assume the site management has squared away the use of blank firers as SFX and why they have requested it from a customer / have authorised a customer to do so.

The sites risk assessment &  mitigations have taken this into account and the insurers made aware of course - and other customers have been advised, it’s in the waiver that they’ve signed to be aware of as well.

 

 

[Pseudotectonic]

Correct me if wrong, but I think blank-firing imitation firearms (meeting the specifications in the regulations) are not firearms, and are subject to VCRA the same way as airsoft RIFs and IFs, the same set of defence apply, including UKARA.

[gavinkempsell]

You've already raised a concern with a marshall, if you're not satisfied with the reply on the lack of action taken then take your money elsewhere, it might be worth making them away why (without sounding like a Karen of course)

[Tommikka]

6 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Correct me if wrong, but I think blank-firing imitation firearms (meeting the specifications in the regulations) are not firearms, and are subject to VCRA the same way as airsoft RIFs and IFs, the same set of defence apply, including UKARA.

You’re wrong 

A UK compliant blank firing pistol wouldn’t be a Section 5 firearm and wouldn’t need a firearms certificate.

 

The VCRA is another piece of legislation, anything covered within the VCRA is not automatically excluded from the firearms act.
The VCRA does not explicitly refer to blank firers, but the firearms does explicitly reference blank firers and their ammunition as to those that do comply to UK standards & section 5 requirements and whether or not blank ammunition would be subject to controls

There is a ‘statutory instrument’ that adds to the VCRA with definitions of ‘blank firing imitation firearms’

 

Airsoft did fall within firearms legislation as well with airsoft guns within the definition of a ‘low power air weapon’ until an amendment was made under section 57a:

 

57a Exemption for airsoft guns

(1)An “airsoft gun” is not to be regarded as a firearm for the purposes of this Act.

(2)An “airsoft gun” is a barrelled weapon of any description which—

(a)is designed to discharge only a small plastic missile (whether or not it is also capable of discharging any other kind of missile), and

(b)is not capable of discharging a missile (of any kind) with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that exceeds the permitted level.

(3)“Small plastic missile” means a missile that—

(a)is made wholly or partly from plastics,

(b)is spherical, and

(c)does not exceed 8 millimetres in diameter.

(4)The permitted kinetic energy level is—

(a)in the case of a weapon which is capable of discharging two or more missiles successively without repeated pressure on the trigger, 1.3 joules;

(b)in any other case, 2.5 joules.]

This exemption is explicitly for airsoft guns that fire plastic BB within 8mm and within the 1.3 or 2.5 joule limits

 

Note that there is an interpretation that air weapons etc are firearms and therefore could not at the same time be RIFs / IFs (this is my interpretation) - but there has been case law that decided otherwise, thus an airgun that was a firearm under the firearms act also at the same time was a Realistic Imitation due to the look of the design  

The VCRA is legislation governing the sale / manufacture / import - it doesn’t govern the use (Different styles of usage of RIFs within the VCRA define what a retailer can take as a valid use to justify sale rather than dictating the actual use after a sale) 
Gun shops do sell blank firers such as starter pistols in bright VCRA style colours, and the industry do protect themselves from a VCRA type prosecution requiring theatrical & reenactment defences etc

 

 

Irrespective of an airsoft gun having being a valid purchase under the VCRA there can still be legal issues with inappropriate use - such as wandering around a town centre

 

AKA don’t be a dick with an airsoft gun

The same applies to blank firers

 

 

[Emergencychimps]

Raise with the head marshall/site manager for both of those instances. 

 

Blank fire can add to the immersion of the event, but I'm sure no site organiser would want to alienate customers who don't want it included. It might be that they add in a "we plan to allow X person to use their blank fire pistol today, if anyone objects X person won't" etc.

 

The coloured zip tie thing is cheating other people's health and safety and absolutely has to be dealt with. 

 

If after being given the opportunity to manage these things they continue and the head marshall is aware. Name and shame the site on a forum/Facebook and vote with your feet by not returning. 

 

If you don't name and shame, it effectively encourages sites to bend for regulars etc and puts other players in a position of supporting a company that has practices that they wouldn't support or puts them at risk of serious injury. 

[Rogerborg]

The thing about the blank firer is this. If you're on an airsoft site, and some rando standing next to you pulls out a RIF (so far, so normal) points it at people, and starts making real gun bang noises with it, it would be a proportionate reaction to attempt to end what appears to be a murderous rampage, instantly, and using any amount of force.

 

Nobody would bring a real gun to an airsoft game?  Already happened.

 

If the site allows it (and I can't see why it would), it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone on the day.

[Pseudotectonic]

If blanks are allowed it should be very heavily managed to be safe, and rules should be very clear about taking hits and so on.

 

Milsim West allows blanks (with heavy checking and there is designated blanks marshal), but it has a 20 foot dome shaped no-engagement-distance (from the muzzle), and hit taking is totally optional.

 

I think my point is, people should be able to know beforehand blanks are involved in a game and how it is managed so they can decide whether to take part, rather than trying to find out the rules mid game. If the rules are unclear or non-existent or unenforced, this is totally a field management issue. If the field has management issues I think totally up to customers to point it out and openly talk about it. If every field has management issues, perhaps we need to talk about it even more.

[Tommikka]

Just now, Pseudotectonic said:

 

 

 If the field has management issues I think totally up to customers to point it out and openly talk about it.

I think @Cr0-Magnons post with just 2 points makes it very clear that the site has management issues 

[Colin Allen]

Having raised these issues here, I think that Cr0-Magnon and JinxDuh should name the sites so that the rest of us can avoid them.

[Impulse]

12 hours ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

Two examples from my most recent skirmish (Sunday just gone):

 

1) Player using a blank firing pistol (not sure why). Deafening for those without hearing protection...which seems necessary even in woodland games now.

2) Players with their own zip ties discussing which colour chrono is using this week....they decided they didn't need to bother going through the official procedure, as their gun was "definitely under"

 

Both of the above seemed to be by "regulars"

I know this as when I enquired with a Marshall as to whether blank firing pistols were allowed, the response was "Errrrr....I know who it is, they're a regular'

 

So at which point am I just defending myself/others and where does it cross the line to "tell-tale" territory?

 

 

 

1. I get bringing blank firers to special events where it makes sense. I think Milsim West do it well and it can really add to the immersion of those events, but as long as it's clearly advertised that blank firers will be in use, so hearing protection is advised. Someone brought a blank firing pistol to a Vietnam game I was at and it was well used. However, bringing one to a skirmish is dumb as skirmish is meant to be for everyone, from your meal team six milsim operator to your speedyboi with a HPA AAP-01 to your 14 year old rental kid.

 

2. This is just flat out cheating and these players should be kicked off site, even if their guns are indeed under. I don't like chrono and when I started nobody chronoed and everyone was fine, but with heavier BBs around, as well as the hobby being far more mainstream than back then (still niche, but today's turnouts are way higher than the mid 2000s), you need to have chrono because, unfortunately, not everyone can be trusted. I know that my guns are under as I tinker with all my stuff and own a chrono to test for power, but I still go through chrono and have no issues doing so. With gas guns, going through chrono helps me make those fine tuning adjustments as sometimes if it's warm, the NPAS in my MWS needs turning down or the bolt in my m700/m40s needs turning down.

 

I would talk to the marshalls about both, and if they didn't do anything about it I'd probably find a new site. The blank firer is less an issue for me as I have hearing protection and can bring it no problem, but people skipping chrono is a big no-no for me as I don't want someone to bring a hot gun and take out my teeth or my eyepro because they're splooging full auto at 1.5J at point blank range, or they're doing their best Kicking Mustang impression and running a bolt action at 3J and also have no concept of MED (the latter part of that is pretty common...)

[Tackle]

I'll add, naming is important, even if players choose to attend these sites, it doesn't hurt to go in forewarned as to potentially what to expect, in order to raise these issues quickly should the need arises. 

[Cannonfodder]

Re the zip ties, no matter how someone tries to dress it up it's avoiding the chrono and therefore cheating. If you've passed on your feelings to site management and they've ignored you or fobbed you off then definitely name and shame them. Not doing so gives them a free pass to carry on and its human nature that if a person gets away with something once they're far more likely to do it again.

 

As for the blank firing pistol, it does look a bit silly to me but I'd have no problem with it if used sensibly. Afterall many of us use BFGs and disposable pyros which have just as much potential to cause harm

 

[Colin Allen]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

The thing about the blank firer is this. If you're on an airsoft site, and some rando standing next to you pulls out a RIF (so far, so normal) points it at people, and starts making real gun bang noises with it, it would be a proportionate reaction to attempt to end what appears to be a murderous rampage, instantly, and using any amount of force.

 

Nobody would bring a real gun to an airsoft game?  Already happened.

 

If the site allows it (and I can't see why it would), it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone on the day.

Indeed; a proportionate response to someone potentially wielding a real firearm would not be out of place.

[Tommikka]

39 minutes ago, Colin Allen said:

Indeed; a proportionate response to someone potentially wielding a real firearm would not be out of place.

There was an incident a few years back where an argument took place over a player who had sneakily got behind enemy lines.

 

This ended with a player being booted in the chest, and that quickly broadcast across the community.

 

The reason for the use of their boot followed more slowly - a knife had been drawn

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Tommikka said:

The reason for the use of their boot followed more slowly - a knife had been drawn

 

People is dumb.  When I used to do historic reenactment, I felt there was never enough done to check that nobody had brought a sharp weapon or tool from the living history side onto the battlefield, accidentally or otherwise.  And as with the gun incident linked above, the problem is that you're trusting not just the nutter who brought it, but every other random nutter who might pick it up and not realise that it's "live" before cocking around with it (see the example of a paintball marshal getting his eye shot out by another marshal with a "cleared" marker).

 

Shouldn't happen, does happen, will keep happening.

[Impulse]

4 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

People is dumb.  When I used to do historic reenactment, I felt there was never enough done to check that nobody had brought a sharp weapon or tool from the living history side onto the battlefield, accidentally or otherwise.  And as with the gun incident linked above, the problem is that you're trusting not just the nutter who brought it, but every other random nutter who might pick it up and not realise that it's "live" before cocking around with it (see the example of a paintball marshal getting his eye shot out by another marshal with a "cleared" marker).

 

Shouldn't happen, does happen, will keep happening.

 

I always check RIFs before shooting them and treat any RIF I haven't personally set up and checked like a loaded firearm, but I think that's a carry over from real-steel shooting and even air rifle shooting.

 

However, I know that isn't the case for most because I play airsoft and I see what happens in the safe zone and on the range and even in the game field.

[Beorn]

As a relative noob to airsoft I know for sure I wouldn't want to play at any site where chrono isn't taken seriously. Especially HPA, which from the little I've read seems to have the most potential for fuckery. I don't think there's any reason to protect the site or players that are doing this, the rules are supposed to make the game as enjoyable and safe as possible for everyone. I can't lie I love the idea of milsim and defo want to experience that so to me the use of blanks/grenades seems super cool, but if it happened at a normal game day with no warning I'd be very confused and concerned. Having only played a few times so far, even grenades going off nearby shit me up something rotten

Edited August 24, 2023 by Beorn

[Tackle]

3 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

Re the zip ties, no matter how someone tries to dress it up it's avoiding the chrono and therefore cheating. If you've passed on your feelings to site management and they've ignored you or fobbed you off then definitely name and shame them. Not doing so gives them a free pass to carry on and its human nature that if a person gets away with something once they're far more likely to do it again.

1000%, they've got the time to go shopping for assorted coloured ties, but not to walk 50 yards to the chrono, definitely cheating pos & if I was a site owner I'd give them a lifetime ban, their hot guns have the potential to bring a H&S shitstorm down on the site.