Special Forces Replica - What is and what is not realistic?

[LzChase]

Attempts are currently being made to create a realistic replica of what a special forces member would realistically use, however information is limited. Various sources claim that a special operator is allowed to set up their weapon to their liking. Is this true?

As seen in a previous thread, a 14.5 inch Geissele 416 SMR M-Lok rail was the plan, However I can't find any evidence of this lenght or type being used. 416 platforms seem in the wild usually have a regular lenght Midwest M-Lok or an SMR non M-Lok. Has a 14.5 ever been used? Or is it not allowed since it would be impractical in CQB?

 

 

[Pseudotectonic]

In terms of how much customisation one can do in actual military, I guess it really depends on the unit, but I also think changing the rail would be closer to the rare end of the spectrum. It may be possible somewhere, but not very probable. If there is no evidence, then probably not.

 

You can theorise whether the non-standard rail can be "clone correct", but unless your everything else is also clone correct I wouldn't be bothered too much. It also depends on your definition of "realism", I would say since the parts exist for real steel, I would say it is as real as any because it is entirely possible it is used somewhere. But if you are going for "clone correctness" then maybe you want to find a source to clone it from, or use more standard parts.

 

I would say 14.5 in CQB is doable, but obviously not as easy as shorter ones.

[Chev Chelios]

Would help if you could be a bit more specific on what unit, branch or at least country. You have to take into account what the upper was made for that later turned into the full rifle.

 

"A short-stroke piston (HK416) design is more reliable and suffers less from excessive fouling when paired up with a short barrel." So most of the time its primary use is a short barrel paired with a suppresser. 

 

If you want to build a 14.5 clone look at the Norwegian army as its their service rifle.  

 

Attached is an image of the ones in use by CAG AKA Delta Force.

 

 

[Impulse]

From the various gun guys I follow, it sounds like most of them would run a short-barreled carbine of some sort (m4a1, mk18, hk416 or some sort of AR15 derivative usually) in various tier 1 and tier 2 units (most of the guys I follow were tier 2 though, so US Army Rangers and the like). A short-barreled carbine is a versatile weapon, capable of room-clearing and also taking mid-range engagements, so while something like an mp5 would be better in CQB, it's all well and good until you leave the building and some asshole with an AK starts shooting you at 400m. Obviously you have units like the SAS running the mp5 for the Iranian embassy siege, because that sort of operation you can be confident will be entirely CQB, but for general carry I would say a short barreled carbine is the most realistic. Also, in general, rifle calibres have more ability to penetrate body armour and helmets than pistol calibres. In terms of sidearm, I think it varies and comes down to personal preference. Heard lots of stories of US units swapping out their m9s for 1911s, so in terms of sidearm it's down to personal preference. That said, I think a lot of them like various Glock models, but if you don't like that you can always go with something like a mk23, as that was specifically designed for USSOCOM, or some sort of Sig, as I believe Glocks, Sigs, Berettas, HKs and even 1911s still get used in SF units.

 

However, there's also an element of what your role is. For example, if you're a sniper, you're likely using something like an m110 SASS or m24 SWS, which is definitely not a short-barreled carbine. If operating in a recce role, you may be using a long-barreled carbine instead like a mk12 mod 1 SPR, as you need to be able to engage out to longer distances than a short-barreled carbine is capable of. Also, you could be a support gunner in which case you're probably carrying an m240b or mk46. I think weapon choice is a wide net, since different units use different weapons and different roles also use different weapons, so there's a lot to choose from.

 

In terms of setup, I do believe that SF operators are allowed to set up their guns however they want, though obviously I can't confirm that as I've never been one or asked one that specific question. M-LOK is currently all the rage, so if I was going to set up some sort of SF operator loadout I would probably do a short-barreled AR-15 or hk416 with an M-LOK handguard and stock of your choice, alongside a QD suppressor, something like a Surefire. Then I'd probably mount a PEQ box for laser (both visible and IR) as well as an IR illuminator, then I'd probably also mount a weapon light, since I believe the PEQ only does IR illumination and you do still want a weapon light, and some sort of front grip. In terms of sight, I'd say an Eotech for a red dot sight on a short-barreled carbine.

 

In terms of barrel length, I think most SF units prefer 11" over 14.5" barrels, since it's more useful for room clearing and CQB and doesn't have too many negatives at long range (though obviously a 14.5" will do better at longer ranges). Somewhat depends on the theatre of war though, as if you're fighting a war in the mountains with no CQB at all then you're not going to want to bring an 11" carbine, however I think that's a rarity.

 

Obviously this is all just my speculation on what I've read around and what I hear in the real-steel shooting world. Could be entirely off the mark, could be 100% accurate, I have no idea on its validity 😂

Edited August 5, 2023 by Impulse

[JimFromHorsham]

First step - which SF Unit shall I clone ?

 

Second step - which era ?

 

third step - start reading .

 

fourth step - how accurate do I want to be ? 
 

Fifth step - start spending , be happy .

[Super64]

As has been mentioned above, you need to be a bit more specific about what SF unit you’re looking to replicate, which role and from which country.

 

UKSF, both SAS and SBS us the same weapon, L119A2, usually with an Acog and mounted red dot. 

U.S, it depends on which unit. Both Delta and Devgru used HK416 with the SMR rail, but Devgru seem to be moving to the Noveske N4. U.S. Army Special Forces (Green Berets) us the M4 with the Geissele URG-I upper. Rangers and none JSOC SEALs I think are still using Daniel Defence uppers on their M4’s. All interspersed with a bunch of MK18’s. Many U.S. special operations units are moving towards low powered variable optics with an offset red dot.
 

Each country has their own SF with their own specific weapons and load outs. Even within units there are specific roles that will require specific weapons and load outs. Google, as always, is a good starting point.

 

I’m sure if you say which particular unit you’re interested in there’ll be a wealth of knowledge available here.

 

 

[Krisz]

Plenty of YT videos about this topic. More than likely that an SF guy can choose his primary and secondary firearm within reason and set it up to his preferences.

 

Even in airsoft you can manipulate a longer gun around corners and these guys know this topic in and out but I'd assume a rattler or an smg still would be still more comfy compared to a long ass gun. As other people said it's more about what kind of deployment you face and choose the best tool for it.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Krisz

[LzChase]

7 hours ago, Chev Chelios said:

Would help if you could be a bit more specific on what unit, branch or at least country. You have to take into account what the upper was made for that later turned into the full rifle.

 

"A short-stroke piston (HK416) design is more reliable and suffers less from excessive fouling when paired up with a short barrel." So most of the time its primary use is a short barrel paired with a suppresser. 

 

If you want to build a 14.5 clone look at the Norwegian army as its their service rifle.  

 

Attached is an image of the ones in use by CAG AKA Delta Force.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, JimFromHorsham said:

First step - which SF Unit shall I clone ?

 

Second step - which era ?

 

third step - start reading .

 

fourth step - how accurate do I want to be ? 
 

Fifth step - start spending , be happy .

 

58 minutes ago, Super64 said:

As has been mentioned above, you need to be a bit more specific about what SF unit you’re looking to replicate, which role and from which country.

 

UKSF, both SAS and SBS us the same weapon, L119A2, usually with an Acog and mounted red dot. 

U.S, it depends on which unit. Both Delta and Devgru used HK416 with the SMR rail, but Devgru seem to be moving to the Noveske N4. U.S. Army Special Forces (Green Berets) us the M4 with the Geissele URG-I upper. Rangers and none JSOC SEALs I think are still using Daniel Defence uppers on their M4’s. All interspersed with a bunch of MK18’s. Many U.S. special operations units are moving towards low powered variable optics with an offset red dot.
 

Each country has their own SF with their own specific weapons and load outs. Even within units there are specific roles that will require specific weapons and load outs. Google, as always, is a good starting point.

 

I’m sure if you say which particular unit you’re interested in there’ll be a wealth of knowledge available here.

 

 

Hey guys, I didn't have a specific SF in mind, I was more wondering if any such group used the specific rail, the 14.5 SMR M-Lok or if it would be realistic. The inspirations were mainly Delta, Joint Task and DEVGRU. I was suggested by a friend of mine who used to be in the armed forces that I stick with 10.5 since I run a long suppressor. We don't use 416 in my country, neither do I believe we use suppressors, but I might go with this suggestion.

[Tommikka]

Any Special Forces worth their salt will tailor to the role but also be able to use whatever they have.

Whether that’s compact weapons accompanied by flame retardant

suit or vest & jeans, rag tag bunch of cut throats, all the gear with some idea, or just baguette and beret

 

‘Special forces’ means many things. Paras, airborne, commandos were the SF of their day.  The SAS originals were named by intelligence to worry the Germans that the paras were around.  
 

My father was part of the UKs special forces in the Cold War (nuclear capable artillery) but not what would be regarded as UKSF - perfect if you are sat around the woods at a game

 

SF do have choice in how they equip, as a unit and as individuals.

Individuals need to know what they are doing to be able to self equip - passing selection and getting badged is only day 1 of their specialist training

(‘Normal’ soldiers also have a degree of personalisation available to them - depending on getting it past the

shouty man and / or where they are - MTP was adopted by the British Army as some infantry dyed their desert cam)

 

 

…………:

 

 

Eithet build your own concept themed around your choice of SF, or look for photos of specific operations / deployments (taking care to avoid posed recreation photos)

 

 

 

[Wavey_Gravey]

You guys all have it wrong, “speshshul forces all use whatever they want” 🙃

 

In all seriousness though 14.5 SMR isn’t that common, delta have used / use them that’s for sure…how far you go down that rabbit hole is up to you and your love hate relationship with money!

[Super64]

1 hour ago, LzChase said:

 

 

Hey guys, I didn't have a specific SF in mind, I was more wondering if any such group used the specific rail, the 14.5 SMR M-Lok or if it would be realistic. The inspirations were mainly Delta, Joint Task and DEVGRU. I was suggested by a friend of mine who used to be in the armed forces that I stick with 10.5 since I run a long suppressor. We don't use 416 in my country, neither do I believe we use suppressors, but I might go with this suggestion.

If you’re looking at Delta or Devgru HK416s, then 14.5 with an SMR rail wouldn’t be totally wrong, but the 10.5 with a suppressor would be more common. There are a bunch of resources you can use to help with your build. Loads of videos on YouTube, GarandThumb, T-Rex Arms and Larry Vickers all have 416 videos, just to name a few. AR15.com is a good forum with sections on Delta and Devgru weapons. Also, the SEAL Team TV show is a good resource. A lot of the production team and actors are ex U.S. military including Delta and Devgru and they take kit authenticity really seriously. So a lot of the kit and weapons used by Bravo Team are as authentic as they can be.
 

Although operators have a lot of freedom to pick their own kit, within reason, both Delta and Devgru have a lot of commonality when it comes to the kit they use.

 

The attached photo is 2 of my builds based off SEAL Team, if it helps.

[LzChase]

Alright, I decided to do some testing. I made cardboard handguards and suppressors to simulate the lenght, then I made a makeshift CQB scenario out of boxes and furniture. I think I have to go with a 10.5 after all. Handling the 14.5 went pretty well, but with the suppressor attached, the total lenght from the receiver to the suppressor muzzle is almost 22 inches and manouvering tight corners starts borderlining on problematic. I'm not willing to ditch the suppressor since I spent money on having it cerakoted to match the Magpul furniture, So 10.5 it is. 

[Dan Robinson]

Don't forget to wear the right patches so the rest of the l33t can see you're a force to be reckoned with:

 

 

🤣

[Super64]

A longer barrel with a suppressor is doable. My Clay Spenser 416 (the top one in the picture) was more difficult to manoeuvre then the 10’5 below it, but once you get used to the length, it’s fine. The U.S. Marine Corps M27 is around a 16 inch barrel and they mostly run them suppressed. It’s all about practice, but a suppressed 10.5 is much easier. If you already have a 14.5 then it’s probably better to get used to manoeuvring that around than forking out for a new gun. But, it’s always nice to buy new things. 

[JinxDuh]

6 hours ago, JimFromHorsham said:

First step - which SF Unit shall I clone ?

 

Second step - which era ?

 

third step - start reading .

 

fourth step - how accurate do I want to be ? 
 

Fifth step - start spending , be happy .

 

Sixth step - Cry after looking at the bank balance 

[JimFromHorsham]

7 minutes ago, JinxDuh said:

 

Sixth step - Cry after looking at the bank balance 

no , it’s put up it for sale and tell everyone that the paint could easily be removed 😭

[Colin Allen]

15 minutes ago, JimFromHorsham said:

no , it’s put up it for sale and tell everyone that the paint could easily be removed 😭

And that it is the best gun you have ever owned.

[Impulse]

2 hours ago, LzChase said:

the total lenght from the receiver to the suppressor muzzle is almost 22 inches and manouvering tight corners starts borderlining on problematic.

 

I went to a CQB site with an SR-25 with a 3-9x50mm scope still attached and was still the one clearing corners while others on my team stood back with their SMGs and short carbines too scared to push forwards. All the gucci specialised kit is worth bugger-all if the drills aren't there too.

 

In fairness, it's far from ideal, but it's a core ideal behind recce rifle builds, which is something I've been looking at a lot recently with my m16a4 MWS build. You can clear buildings with long barreled rifles; it's harder and you're definitely better off with a shorter rifle, but it's definitely possible with practice. I think the worst I've taken to a CQB site is a 1J bolt action rifle that I've still managed to clear corners with; at this point it's a point of pride 😂

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, Impulse said:

 

I went to a CQB site with an SR-25 with a 3-9x50mm scope still attached and was still the one clearing corners while others on my team stood back with their SMGs and short carbines too scared to push forwards.

 

 

At a woodland game, during the day I announced to the team that I was going to have some fun running around with my SLR for the next session.

Then a volunteer was requested & I found myself tasked with clearing and searching the cowboy & Indian western village doing almost CQB waving a full size SLR between all the tight angles 

[Colin Allen]

13 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

At a woodland game, during the day I announced to the team that I was going to have some fun running around with my SLR for the next session.

Then a volunteer was requested & I found myself tasked with clearing and searching the cowboy & Indian western village doing almost CQB waving a full size SLR between all the tight angles 

I have done something very similar with an SLR :).

[LzChase]

7 hours ago, Super64 said:

A longer barrel with a suppressor is doable.

 

5 hours ago, Impulse said:

I went to a CQB site with an SR-25 with a 3-9x50mm scope still attached and was still the one clearing corners

 

3 hours ago, Tommikka said:

I found myself tasked with clearing and searching the cowboy & Indian western village doing almost CQB waving a full size SLR

This is some very interesting info. After further testing with my cardboard pieces, I decided to stick with a 10.5 for this particular build since I want to be able to manouver it to fire from any position quickly, such as from a window, over/around a cover or around a corner at speed while moving in a group, while also having full free movement with it in ready position without having it bump into anything. Finally, I discovered that the Surefire UE07 remote switch is too short for me to be able to control the light when it's mounted at the front and I hold the weapon in my prefered way. Moving the light back causes the suppressor and front of the handguard to cast a big shadow blocking out much of the beam. I do not want to modify the remote switch as they cost almost 150$ here.

However, I will also eventually be doing a G3 build where I'll base it on a full lenght version. Perhaps I'll try it out in CQB.

Edited August 5, 2023 by LzChase

[1st commando]

21 hours ago, Super64 said:

As has been mentioned above, you need to be a bit more specific about what SF unit you’re looking to replicate, which role and from which country.

 

UKSF, both SAS and SBS us the same weapon, L119A2, usually with an Acog and mounted red dot. 

U.S, it depends on which unit. Both Delta and Devgru used HK416 with the SMR rail, but Devgru seem to be moving to the Noveske N4. U.S. Army Special Forces (Green Berets) us the M4 with the Geissele URG-I upper. Rangers and none JSOC SEALs I think are still using Daniel Defence uppers on their M4’s. All interspersed with a bunch of MK18’s. Many U.S. special operations units are moving towards low powered variable optics with an offset red dot.
 

Each country has their own SF with their own specific weapons and load outs. Even within units there are specific roles that will require specific weapons and load outs. Google, as always, is a good starting point.

 

I’m sure if you say which particular unit you’re interested in there’ll be a wealth of knowledge available here.

 

 

UKSF have moved on too

[JimFromHorsham]

11 minutes ago, 1st commando said:

UKSF have moved on too

following UKSF is like following apple products , just when you think you’ve got the latest ….. 😭

Edited August 6, 2023 by JimFromHorsham

[Super64]

46 minutes ago, 1st commando said:

UKSF have moved on too

I know they’re using the MCX, and the Knights Armament KS-1 is rumoured to be a replacement for the L119A2, but are they in service yet? Or is there something else I’ve missed? The Rangers and Marines are getting the KS-1 so it would make sense for the SAS and SBS to have it as well. 

[Tackle]

Not trying to pee on anyone's bonfire, so no offence to OP or anyone else, but I don't get the stitch counters, it's airsoft, copying the highest rated military forces of any country doesn't in turn make you special, lol might indicate you are speshul😋, but it's airsoft, use or wear whatever YOU like the look or feel of, 99.9% percent of players on site won't judge or critique you. 👍