Opinions on UKAPU

[Scythian]

So, I'm considering joining UKAPU as I seem to be spending an ever increasing amount of time and money on the hobby and I'd like to see it continue. Just wondering if this is the only organization that represents our interests or are there others I should consider?

[Rogerborg]

I've joined and rejoined UKAPU over and over, but have never heard a squeak out of them, apart from seeing a very occasional self-congratulatory post on Facebook about some jolly their committee had, three weeks ago.

 

Alternative narratives are doubtless available, and valid, but I can only speak to the truths of my lived experience.

[Shamal]

Hi @Scythian

I joined years ago. It costs me a tenner a year. I believe that they work on the behalf of Airsoft players and interact with official bodies to keep the sport/hobby/activity safe.

 

I've been to a few AGM game days which were well organised. If you are heading down south to the n.a.e.this year there will be a ukapu stall there.

 

Regards

 

P.s I believe that @Jacob Wrighton here is a regional rep👍

 

 

[RebelScum]

I joined, as one the perks was a patch to add to the collection.  Unfortunately said patch never materialized, despite promises to the contrary.  And then I found my subs auto-paid through PayPal and I still didn't get the patch.  I gave up my membership at this point.

 

As for what they actually do.  Not sure to be honest as the FB page was never updated.

[Cannonfodder]

22 minutes ago, RebelScum said:

As for what they actually do.  Not sure to be honest as the FB page was never updated

This is exactly why I've never bothered joining. I've seen them make lots of claims about how they're responsible for saving airsoft from "influential people who want to see airsoft banned" and have "overcome several proposed bans in the last decade" (direct quotes from their website) but zero evidence to back these claim up. They also claim to be an official organisation representing players which is bullshit. Who made them official?

 

Overall this looks to me like people trying to become big names in the hobby by making grand statements but offering fuck all so 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Cannonfodder

[Dan Robinson]

We had a similar kind of organisation in the domestic heating world.   In fact several.   Was never more than an ego trip for the various founders and  "committee members".

 

Fuck all in the industry was changed for the better.   In fact,  the biggest steps in system design and efficiency came down to a few of us nerds figuring things out and proving to a few people with influence that it was worth pursuing.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Dan Robinson

[Jacob Wright]

It's taken me a while to decide whether to reply to this, and if so, what I should say. As Shamal has rightly stated, I am the East of England UKAPU representative. I initially joined as a member, but decided that I would like to further support the community as a regional representative.

 

During my interview for the position I too expressed reservations with regard to what the union provide - as others have pointed out, the social media pages are not frequently updated and there is little 'evidence'. All representatives are volunteers, and in any case, I believe that the Press Officer position is vacant.

 

There is often assistance offered to player-members which unfortunately goes unreported due to this. This has involved helping with customs and import of RIFs, where players experienced issues - and similarly assisted players in Northern Ireland where I believe there have been further issues with customs.

 

Following the COVID-19 pandemic, the Union were approached by a number of game organisers/site owners to gauge the legality of running games during the lift of restriction levels. The Union provided this guidance, but it was highlighted that if Airsoft was registered as a sport (like paintball is), then we potentially could have returned sooner. However, in order to register as a sport we would require a national governing body.

 

The membership was 'sold' to me as more of an insurance scheme; in case I should ever need assistance, but also to support the ongoing efforts of the Union to provide some kind of national governing body - which was well supported by representatives, members, non-members and site owners when discussed with them.

 

Whilst it was before my time, I believe the references to 'proposed bans' etc relate to the VCRA 2007 bill. @Cannonfodder if you would like I will try to find more information relating to this.

 

Unfortunately, our Chairman has suffered from issues with his personal circumstances lately, and this has led to our AGM not happening as early in the year as perhaps would be expected. Rest assured, I am actively pursuing this and hope it will be able to go ahead soon. With this in mind, I cannot comment on the plans going forward for the annual members skirmish or attendance at NAE.

 

In the past I have attempted to arrange a members only game, but then struggled to find a site to host it at. It is on my list of things to arrange, and as soon as I have news I will share it.

 

I do recognise that perhaps the communications from the Union have not been as good as would be expected, and for that please accept my apology.

 

@Rogerborg - are you referring to the Operation Stigma II post on Facebook from May 2022 as this is all I can find?

 

@RebelScum if you would like, please send me a message and I will do my best to chase up your patch - as it is of course not right that you have yet to receive it.

 

Finally, I would like to address suggestions that members of the Union are in it to 'make a name' for themselves, or as an 'ego boost'. I appreciate this is personal opinion, but when engaging with other representatives I have not experienced this. I see the other representatives as individuals with only the interests of the players and the sport at heart.

 

My inbox is always open, and I am always more than happy to engage with any player, whether they are a member or not. I've done my best to address what people have said, and am happy to discuss anything.

 

- Jacob

[Rogerborg]

40 minutes ago, Jacob Wright said:

@Rogerborg - are you referring to the Operation Stigma II post on Facebook from May 2022 as this is all I can find?

 

Dunno, I've long since stopped following UKAPU because it was more frustrating than useful.  This is down to the foibles of the Facebook algorithm deciding that I only really want to see posts from low traffic, low engagement pages days or even weeks after they've been made, even though I had UKAPU set to "top of my feed".  But that is an inherent issue with using Facebook as the primary means of communication - if you're an admin or active contributor, you'll be seeing a different feed from what I was getting.

 

As far as I can see, there's been no public posts to the Facebook page for 6 months, the Twitter account last posted in 2019, and Instagram and the ukapu.org.uk website's latest news is from 2021.

 

If it wasn't for your posts here, I'd assume that UKAPU was effectively defunct.

 

None of this is meant as a criticism of you or the other volunteers.  I appreciate anything that you're doing, I just have no way of knowing that you are doing anything at all.

[Colin Allen]

i would be interested to know how many players are signed up to UKAPU and what percentage of them have received help from UKAPU.  Also, when was UKAPU founded?
 

I suspect that this group may have provided more good advice on import and customs issues than UKAPU.

[Jacob Wright]

@Rogerborg I completely agree that more needs to be done to highlight what we are doing, I know the Facebook algorithm doesn't help, but perhaps if we posted more and had more interaction that would help with it.

 

@Colin Allen you do raise an interesting point, if I can get hold of some solid figures then I'll share them with all. I would imagine the percentage to be small, not dissimilar to many Unions. Whilst I agree this forum is an absolute goldmine of information, I can't comment on the Forum vs Union quality of advice.

[Scythian]

Thanks everybody for all the replies. One of the reasons I decided to look into the likes of UKAPA was my algorithm feeds me stuff like this...
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/sittingbourne/news/i-can-sell-these-air-rifles-so-i-will-288287/

It's a shockingly bad piece of journalism with terminology like 'airshot guns' and 'plastic bullets' scattered throughout, and the shop owner's attitude is almost beyond belief. It's these sort of stories that make me think that perhaps sensible representation for the hobby might be a good thing.

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Scythian said:

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/sittingbourne/news/i-can-sell-these-air-rifles-so-i-will-288287/

 

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Come on, Trading Standards, sort this out.  A couple of test purchases, shut it down.

[Jacob Wright]

Just what we need 🙄

[Cannonfodder]

8 hours ago, Jacob Wright said:

Whilst it was before my time, I believe the references to 'proposed bans' etc relate to the VCRA 2007 bill.

 

7 hours ago, Colin Allen said:

Also, when was UKAPU founded?

According to the FAQ section of the website UKAPU was founded in either 2009 or 2010, depending on which answer you're reading.

 

As for that news report, I could eat a bowl  of alphabet spaghetti and shit out a better article than that

Edited June 15, 2023 by Cannonfodder

[Skullchewer]

Well, I came to comment about UKAPU, as a member, but

5 hours ago, Scythian said:

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/sittingbourne/news/i-can-sell-these-air-rifles-so-i-will-288287/

 

What the shit is this fuck 😫

[Jacob Wright]

A meeting is booked in for 22nd June at 7pm.

 

I hope to be able to share more information following this.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Jacob Wright
Misread message caused me to post inaccurate information.

[Colin Allen]

1 hour ago, Jacob Wright said:

AGM is booked in for 22nd June at 7pm.

 

I hope to be able to share more information following this, I know previous AGM's have had members join, and I don't see we they won't be able to this year either.

Surely members should have been sent an invitation to the AGM?

[TacticalWaifu]

4 hours ago, Jacob Wright said:

AGM is booked in for 22nd June at 7pm.

 

I hope to be able to share more information following this, I know previous AGM's have had members join, and I don't see we they won't be able to this year either.

 

That's marginally concerning to say the least.

 

Going off Constitution Draft 3.5 dated 2021-03-02 (the latest UKAPU have published):

 

There are various points of order which the leadership of UKAPU seem to have failed to consider or keep to -- so rather than firing shots at every individual wrongdoing, I'm going to reiterate the only one that matters right now:

 

Quote

§ 8.4 - "28 days written notice shall be given to Members of the date, time and location of the Annual General Meeting by circulating a copy of the notice to every member via the email address provided"

 

This doesn't seem to have happened. You've certainly only made this forum aware with *less than 7 days notice,* much less 28 -- and the required written notice doesn't seem to have been given to members.

 

Facebook: last updated November 4, 2022

Twitter: last updated March 4, 2019 (looking for a press officer, a position still vacant in mid 2023)

Instagram: last updated February 18, 2021

Website: last "news" update: "Facebook announcement" (which never happened on Facebook), February 19, 2021.

 

You've not informed the membership of the AGM, you've not given sufficient notice for the AGM, and you've certainly not given any notice to members concerning election of officers, or the opportunity to nominate members to stand as candidates prior to officer elections.

 

Additionally, it doesn't appear officers were elected in 2018 or 2019, which was concerning, since they're supposed to be elected annually for a 1-year post...

 

2020 and 2021 seem to have been pretty much the same people being uncontested and voted unanimously, which is a concern given how badly basic communication and governance seem to be going (or not going) 😕

 

TL;DR: it's a shitshow. You're not even trying to follow your own Constitution, and haven't remotely given the membership notification, never mind adequate notification, of the AGM -- so the fact that you're suggesting it's going ahead in less than a week is a complete farce.

[Scythian]

12 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

As for that news report, I could eat a bowl  of alphabet spaghetti and shit out a better article than that

🤣🤣🤣

[Colin Allen]

10 hours ago, Jacob Wright said:

AGM is booked in for 22nd June at 7pm.

 

I hope to be able to share more information following this, I know previous AGM's have had members join, and I don't see we they won't be able to this year either.

I would point out that it is a legal requirement to give members written notice of an AGM.

 

Members have an absolute right to attend, raise issues, ask questions  and vote.  Stating that “I don’t see why they won’t be able to this year” makes it seem that they are there on sufferance.

 

As a member of the association, I will be writing to the committee pointing out that they are in breach of their constitution and requiring them to give all members 28 days notice of the AGM.

[Colin Allen]

This is what I gave sent them:

Dear Sirs,
 

As a member of UKAPU, I am deeply concerned that you have failed to abide by the latest published version of the Association's constitution, in that you have failed to give members the 28 days written notice of the 2023 AGM that is required by the Association's constitution.
 

I understand that the AGM is due to take place at 7PM on 22nd June.  
 

I note that the latest published version of the constitution states that one purpose of the AGM is to elect the Executive Officers; the constitution states that nominations must be made to the secretary in writing at least 45 days before the date of the AGM.  You have not notified members of this, making it impossible for members to nominate Executive Officers.
 

Therefore, I am calling on you to cancel the AGM on 22nd June and rearrange for a date that will enable you to:
 

1. Notify members of their right to nominate Executive Officers and allow them sufficient time to do so bearing in mind the 45 day cutoff.

2. Notify members of the date, time, location (if physical) or access arrangements (if online) at least 28 days before the date of the meeting.

3. Inform members that they can raise any matter at the AGM, provided that they give the secretary at least 14 days written notice.

I await your response.

21 hours ago, Jacob Wright said:

 I believe the references to 'proposed bans' etc relate to the VCRA 2007 bill. @Cannonfodder if you would like I will try to find more information relating to this.

But UKAPU was founded in 2009 or 2010?

[Asomodai]

6 hours ago, TacticalWaifu said:

 

 

 

You've not informed the membership of the AGM, you've not given sufficient notice for the AGM, and you've certainly not given any notice to members concerning election of officers, or the opportunity to nominate members to stand as candidates prior to officer elections.

 

Additionally, it doesn't appear officers were elected in 2018 or 2019, which was concerning, since they're supposed to be elected annually for a 1-year post...

 

2020 and 2021 seem to have been pretty much the same people being uncontested and voted unanimously, which is a concern given how badly basic communication and governance seem to be going (or not going) 😕

 

I am pretty annoyed at the lack of communication as well. I pay my subs and I don't get even the bare minimum in comms. I missed out on the last AGM due to not even realising it was going ahead. 

 

However to be fair, very few candidates stand for positions at all. So most do get accepted by default. 

Though there was an AGM last year that I attended where we blocked someone who was quite unsuitable due to their dicey past personal relationship with the incumbent. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Asomodai

[Jacob Wright]

Thank you for the replies. I should make it clear now that I misconstrued a message sent to me. A meeting is planned for 22nd of June, but this is not the AGM.

 

[typefish]

Hello.

 

Just thought I'd post in this topic just to clear up a couple of comments here.

 

The meeting that has been previously announced here that is being held on the 22nd of this month is not an AGM, it is an emergency management meeting, which is being held to replace myself as chairman, as I'm resigning.

 

Once that emergency meeting has occurred, and a new chairperson elected, we will begin the process of organising, and notifying our members about an upcoming AGM.

 

I won't go into details in full as to why I'm resigning on here (as I'll leave that to a press release to be done at a later date) but essentially dealing with the absolute mess that was the Coronavirus regulations pretty much made me want to pack airsoft in all together (and I want to enjoy airsoft once again)

 

I thank you for your interest in UKAPU and I hope to possibly see you at the AGM, whenever that may be!

Edited June 16, 2023 by typefish

[TacticalWaifu]

57 minutes ago, typefish said:

The meeting that has been previously announced here that is being held on the 22nd of this month is not an AGM, it is an emergency management meeting, which is being held to replace myself as chairman, as I'm resigning.

Once that emergency meeting has occurred, and a new chairperson elected, we will begin the process of organising, and notifying our members about an upcoming AGM.

 

Appreciate the update -- for those not in the know, you're David W., right?

 

How are you differentiating between an "emergency management meeting" and an EGM or (minimum biannual) management meeting -- the latter of which "members are encouraged to attend" (§ 6.1.5)?

 

I appreciate this seems to be a bit of a rush job, but do you have any idea when an AGM may be called?

 

I only ask because UKAPU haven't published any meeting agenda or minutes for 2022, and there doesn't appear to be anything listed for who was elected and when - which seems important, given current elected officers are the only ones allowed to vote at an MM?

 

Thanks,

 

~TW