Blind Firing.

[Rogerborg]

1 minute ago, BigStew said:

Yep it would be nice. except my case I know it was said in the brief they just didn't listen. 

 

Or someone talked over it, or the marshal got distracted and missed that one point on that one day, or they've got hearing problems - something I've never heard mentioned at any brief, anywhere, ever (maybe it wasn't said loud enough).

 

To be clear, I fully agree that all rules are only meaningful if enforced on the field.

 

However, we live in a society that's both litigious (boo) and inclusive (yay), and "I'm sure I said..." won't satisfy either of those.

[Nick G]

Soooo what do we call it when some idiot sticks his head round a corner just as you pull the trigger ? I did that at a pistols and shotties game a couple of years ago. Peaked round a building just as a guy from the other team pulled the trigger, tri shot to the face at about 3 feet 🤣 Totally not his fault, he was aiming down the barrel at someone in another building . Blind peaking ? 😂😂

[Tommikka]

40 minutes ago, Nick G said:

Soooo what do we call it when some idiot sticks his head round a corner just as you pull the trigger

?

An accident 

[Nick G]

1 minute ago, Tommikka said:

An accident 

Oh totally. The guy that shot me is a mate anyway and as I said he was doing everythig right . Just my bad timing  , serves me right for being a numpty and not peaking whilst on a knee !

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, Nick G said:

Soooo what do we call it when some idiot sticks his head round a corner just as you pull the trigger ? I did that at a pistols and shotties game a couple of years ago. Peaked round a building just as a guy from the other team pulled the trigger, tri shot to the face at about 3 feet 🤣 Totally not his fault, he was aiming down the barrel at someone in another building . Blind peaking ? 😂😂

I ran up to a building once, no noise from inside so I stuck my head in the window 

At the same moment that a barrel poked out of the window

 

(Just for info - I was carrying a radio with vox enabled)

 

I exclaimed, jumped backwards and took a shot to the chest 

 

As I appeared in the safe zone, and told my team mate (with his handset on the bench) what had just happened ….. everyone present let’s me know “we heard”

16 minutes ago, Nick G said:

Oh totally. The guy that shot me is a mate anyway and as I said he was doing everythig right . Just my bad timing  , serves me right for being a numpty and not peaking whilst on a knee !

You replied to my reply too quick

 

i was hoping the above tale would merge

 

 

Another accident tale takes place on camera on our 2nd ever event at approx 0:35:

 

 

The gunman had in fact been an ‘almost original’ of the team when forming in 2007/2008 before dropping out of the game for life things 

He played that game in 2010, and we ‘met again’ later that year when Oblivion opened (which became Ironsight)

 

Its thanks to finally getting him on board that enabled his tech skills to put our game ideas into practice 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Tommikka

[Nick G]

Ouch ! but we've all done it , and it's easily done

Our local site always mentions blind firing in the safety brief but Shooting from the hip is ok as long as you have a clear sight of your target. The marshalls are pretty good at enforcing it too. 

Get shot in the face 'cos of your own idiocy and everyone will quite rightly take the piss 😂

 

[BigStew]

1 hour ago, Nick G said:

Soooo what do we call it when some idiot sticks his head round a corner just as you pull the trigger ? I did that at a pistols and shotties game a couple of years ago. Peaked round a building just as a guy from the other team pulled the trigger, tri shot to the face at about 3 feet 🤣 Totally not his fault, he was aiming down the barrel at someone in another building . Blind peaking ? 😂😂

Total an accident unless the shooter was using the weapon in a way that would obscure their peripheral vision.

[Nick G]

2 minutes ago, BigStew said:

Total an accident unless the shooter was using the weapon in a way that would obscure their peripheral vision.

Completely accidental and my fault not his.

 

I was just hoping to get the term 'Blind Peaking'  into common ussage 🤣

[Tommikka]

29 minutes ago, Nick G said:

Completely accidental and my fault not his.

 

I was just hoping to get the term 'Blind Peaking'  into common ussage 🤣

Are you a peakey blindee?

[Nick G]

1 hour ago, Tommikka said:

Are you a peakey blindee?

I rather think I might be ! 🤣

[Druid799]

4 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Are you a peakey blindee?

You will be if you keep doing it ! “Now where’d I leave my white stick ?” 🤣

Most sites I’ve been too have said you need to be sighting down the gun so you can see what your shooting at , anything else could be classed as blind firing .

Me personally I’ve always defined ‘blind firing’ as firing your gun either under/over or through any type of cover where you can’t see what your actually shooting at and you are unable to tell what or who is in front of you , but with the caveat there’s always going to be occasions where part of you view is obscured , firing out of a window(player pops up in front of you) , around a corner(player walks in to your line of fire) , etc etc so a player could still take a blast at close range from you but it was an unavoidable accident nothing else .

I had the ‘hip firing’ scenario happen a few yrs ago , was in a sort of bunker complex I hear talking in the next room to me , recognised one of the voices as belonging to a right nobber on the other team so moved up to the corner of the two sections stepped out and shot him and two others in the back as they thought their team had secured the whole complex (they hadn’t ! 😈) who all then promptly started screaming blue murder about blind firing as I shot the three of them from the hip ! I laughed and said “grow up it was only one shot each !” At that site it was single shot only inside hardcover/buildings/bunkers and walked off . Only for him to later turn up at my table in the safezone with a marshal(who just so happened to be a friend of his) who immediately starts shouting at me for ‘blind firing’ at this point I said rather forcefully shouted back at him with “do NOT shout at me get the head marshal now !” he arrives , both sides of the argument given , junior marshal given severe bollocking for speaking to me like that . The general consensus was yes it could be described as blind firing in the widest sense possible but really you want to kick up a fuss over a single shot to the center of your plate carrier ?

[AlphaBear]

My site rule is simple.... if you can't see what you're shooting at.... it's blind firing... You have to be looking down the barrel...  Period

[rj1986]

Most site I've played at have used the front sight + rear sight + target rule, added with the A4 paper size rule, and no opening or closing windows.

 

I played a site last year where i was crouched behind a small wall. A walk on then started poking his gun round the side and spraying (luckily nowhere near my general direction as i was tucked in). Only thing i could do was grab the barrel and pull the gun away. When he then came round the corner to find out what happened he had no idea i was there and walked into a knife kill

Edited February 18, 2022 by rj1986

[Impulse]

My local site classes both hip firing and dual wielding as blind fire, but side-sighting is fine. It's one of the few rules I very much disagree with, but I've given my feedback and it's still the way it is so I'm not going to push it any further. I agree hip firing is bad and I agree with their ruling of no key-holing (because it's basically just situational blind firing), but dual wielding and hip firing never came across as blind firing to me...

 

To me it feels stupid. Hip firing and dual wielding you can very much see where you're shooting, arguably better than you can when you side-sight, since side-sighting means you can't see the other side of your gun. Yes, dual wielding you can shoot in both directions which would be blind firing as you can't look directly to both the left and right at the same time, but you can also fire a single gun to the right without looking so that's just blind firing and has nothing to do with dual wielding. Hip firing as well, some support guns aren't designed to be shouldered; as has been pointed out, are you going to make me shoulder a minigun? I think part of it is that people get mad about support gunners playing support gun properly. I've got a friend who has had multiple complaints against him because he suppresses an area and then people stick their heads out into the suppression to catch a few BBs to the face. Fires in bursts too, so he's doing nothing wrong, but people get mad; I think him moving up and hip firing is part of why hip firing got banned.

 

Oh yeah, I also got properly blind fired last game day when I decided to not be a sniper for once. Someone on my team said "behind you!" and I turned to see an arm and the barrel of a rifle sticking around the corner. Fortunately the guy must've been shooting blanks or hadn't wound his high cap or something because I didn't feel anything and just pushed around and put two BBs into his leg.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

2 hours ago, Impulse said:

I didn't feel anything and just pushed around and put two BBs into his leg.

Well played!

 

I play support gun a lot.  Shouldering it like a rifle would allow you to get around ammo limits and semi auto only rules.  At least as far as games with a lot of structure/milsims/filmsims etc.  No use having different roles if people chuck plastic M249s around as though they are M4s.  

[Spartan09]

On 16/02/2022 at 15:55, Cr0-Magnon said:

 

The phrase they tend to use in safety briefings is "we're not Americans"

site i go to often adds "or hollywood action heroes" on the end of that line...

On 17/02/2022 at 09:58, Rogerborg said:

This gets us back to the question of why sites don't just put the critical rules on a board, stick it up at the game zone entry, and say "Read that before you go out there, feel free to ask questions, don't plead ignorance."

RIFT do this, but also cover many of the more important or obscure rules in the actual briefing as well,  such as the "no running from grenades" rule that i havent seen at any other site.

On 17/02/2022 at 10:05, BigStew said:

Most likely answer they would get vandalised with a couple of days being put up at any wood land site.

answer to that is to have the head marshal/site owner remove it, then set it up again next game day...  avoids vandalism and allows the rule board to be amended if required

[Cr0-Magnon]

10 hours ago, Spartan09 said:

answer to that is to have the head marshal/site owner remove it, then set it up again next game day...  avoids vandalism and allows the rule board to be amended if required

 

I can't speak with certainty but I would imagine that verbally stating the rules and safety advice is an insurance/liability requirement. I've been a part of and lead heavy/oversized cargo lifts. Health & safety rules state that you actually have to go through a proper induction process. You can't just say "check the board"

[BigStew]

43 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

 

I can't speak with certainty but I would imagine that verbally stating the rules and safety advice is an insurance/liability requirement. I've been a part of and lead heavy/oversized cargo lifts. Health & safety rules state that you actually have to go through a proper induction process. You can't just say "check the board"

Most places I have played at the sign sheet also act as a declaration that the signer has read and agreed to follow the site rules. They also had a verbal brief.

[Cr0-Magnon]

2 minutes ago, BigStew said:

Most places I have played at the sign sheet also act as a declaration that the signer has read and agreed to follow the site rules. They also had a verbal brief.

 

Yeah I'm just thinking of the time I had to tell an inebriated off duty police officer, that they couldn't smoke on the coach. In response to me also pointing at the "No Smoking" sign, her defence was "If it goes to court, I'll argue I'm blind and that's discrimination!"

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

I can't speak with certainty but I would imagine that verbally stating the rules and safety advice is an insurance/liability requirement. I've been a part of and lead heavy/oversized cargo lifts. Health & safety rules state that you actually have to go through a proper induction process. You can't just say "check the board"

 

I'd argue quite the opposite.  If it comes to a dispute, where's the record of what you actually said?  This isn't abstract, it was the key disputed issue in the blinding compo case noted above.  Bear in mind that reality takes a back seat as soon as solicitors get involved: they are paid, professionally, to call you a liar.

[Cr0-Magnon]

1 minute ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I'd argue quite the opposite.  If it comes to a dispute, where's the record of what you actually said?  This isn't abstract, it was the key disputed issue in the blinding compo case noted above.  Bear in mind that reality takes a back seat as soon as solicitors get involved: they are paid, professionally, to call you a liar.

 

I guess site rules on the website and signed waivers "should" cover their bases on that ground.

 

Maybe they are all just aspiring comedians after all. 

[Rogerborg]

19 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

I guess site rules on the website and signed waivers "should" cover their bases on that ground.

 

If they were demonstrably there before the date of the incident, i.e. on archive.org 

 

This is also why sites who are run a via Facebook "About" page might also be making a liability rod for their own backs.

 

Thankfully there aren't a lot of incidents, and the Absolute Airsoft case went quiet so I assume was settled by the insurer out of court.  That's what indemnity insurance is there for, to cover you when things go wrong.

 

One thing I would highlight is that the Vowles vs Evans and Welsh Rugby Union court case has set a clear precedent that even unpair volunteer referees do owe a duty of care for the rules they agreed to help enforce.  So as well as not being thanked for marshalling, you might (just conceivably) find yourself named as a co-defendant.

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

 

Yeah I'm just thinking of the time I had to tell an inebriated off duty police officer, that they couldn't smoke on the coach. In response to me also pointing at the "No Smoking" sign, her defence was "If it goes to court, I'll argue I'm blind and that's discrimination!"

Lovely officer

She reminds me of the police officers who were caught speeding and went to court on the basis of either the lack of correctly spaced miniature reminder signs or that the 30mph speed sign was the smaller reminder diameter and not a full size sign.

 

They got off on the technicality, but I like to think that they suffered other consequences such as a stern talking to on the values & standards expected of the law - without coffee & biscuits 

 

 

[Tommikka]

On signs, disclaimers, web site rules, verbal briefs etc …… nobody pays full attention & you cannot assume.

 

 

People don’t read the part of the disclaimer that says that you are signing to confirm that you have read it.

 

At our first ever event the site planned to use their standard disclaimer - which was aimed at rental players, not own gunners.

So I went through the disclaimer with management & discussed what can and cannot be changed - particularly in the terms of site insurance.  

I could allow players to have guns in the safe zone - and therefore add all the rules on ensuring they are safe

 

I couldn’t allow players to self fill due to insurance terms on the fill station - which caused a dilemma in complying to a new event organizers collective set of rules which included air safety rules with training - I was permitted to run training, issue passes (valid for a year) and but not allow self fill for the rest of the day

(I expected that nobody would take up the training - but they did, and that allowed the next organizer to run a smaller session of only those that hadn’t been to our event)

 

 

 

Safety must be covered along all methods - and therefore not be reams of paper and hours of waffle 

Core rules should be repeated, no matter how many regulars are there 

Particularly at our events as we have ‘standard’ rules, our preferred rules and also specifics for how we want to run that event or mission - we’re probably trying out a rule or respawn option - we like barrel tags/knife kills & surrenders but there are specifics on what is an enforced rule (tag/knife) and what is an option (surrender) and also in certain formats we don’t allow them such as our Battle Royale format has no surrenders permitted (though I permitted one  surrender when two players met face to face seconds into the session rather than force a 2 inch kill)

 

 

 

[The Waco Kid]

20 hours ago, Spartan09 said:

  such as the "no running from grenades" rule that i havent seen at any other site.

Do you know what the think of this is?

 

Personally a grenade coming at me means I am charging the position it came from as they often don’t have their weapon ready…. Given the faffy way most players do this.

 

8 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

One thing I would highlight is that the Vowles vs Evans and Welsh Rugby Union court case has set a clear precedent that even unpair volunteer referees do owe a duty of care for the rules they agreed to help enforce.  So as well as not being thanked for marshalling, you might (just conceivably) find yourself named as a co-defendant.

An issue for player Marshall’s and “off duty” Marshall’s enjoying a skirmish too.

I know people in other sports who don’t tell people they are an instructor/coach when participating because they think that it will shield them should something go wrong.