How bright is too bright?

[Cannonfodder]

Righty folks, I've been looking at tac lights and I've seen ones with brightness rating of anywhere between 200 and 3000 lumens. As I don't want something that'll be as useless as a tea light in a jam jar or able to burn out other player's retinas with a quick flash, what sort of output should I be looking at? 

 

All help is much appreciated 

[Steveocee]

Valkyrie Olight PL2 is probably the answer lol

[Madhouse]

Surely retinal burning comes at the higher lumens? I spend a lot of time mountain biking in the dark and judging by the impact of when mates look round and forget their head torch is on, anything over 1000 should do that nicely.

 

But more is probably better in this case.

[Tackle]

Many manufacturer will exaggerate the output of their products, but to be honest anything 300-600 lumens with a tightly focused beam is usually more than adequate, & if you want to exploit a possible tactical advantage, look for something with a switchable strobe mode.

[Cannonfodder]

13 minutes ago, Tackle said:

Many manufacturer will exaggerate the output of their products, but to be honest anything 300-600 lumens with a tightly focused beam is usually more than adequate, & if you want to exploit a possible tactical advantage, look for something with a switchable strobe mode.

I thought that some of the cheaper option's power claims would probably be suspect. I not really after strobe mode due not wanting to possibly cause epileptic fits

 

24 minutes ago, Madhouse said:

Surely retinal burning comes at the higher lumens? I spend a lot of time mountain biking in the dark and judging by the impact of when mates look round and forget their head torch is on, anything over 1000 should do that nicely.

 

But more is probably better in this case.

In that case 3000 lumens is probably a bit OTT

 

30 minutes ago, Steveocee said:

Valkyrie Olight PL2 is probably the answer lol

Thanks, I'll have a look at that

[Tackle]

1 hour ago, Cannonfodder said:

I thought that some of the cheaper option's power claims would probably be suspect. I not really after strobe mode due not wanting to possibly cause epileptic fits

I get your concerns re epilepsy, tbh I've never heard of one being triggered in game, but not have I heard anyone ask if it's gonna be an issue to use one ?, Personally I'd probably buy one with a strobe option, even if it's not gonna be used much, better to have & not need than need & not have lol.

As for brands, even the cheaper clones etc, led chips have advanced massively, even the cheap kit tends to be good enough for Airsoft use & ranges.

[Rogerborg]

Sure, they're all using much the same chips or clones so, so any of the Vastfire / Truefire / Awesomefire clones that takes an 18650 should be good enough now.  I'd look for one with a pressure switch and single mode, which can actually be a problem, as everybody's got a rager on for bright / dim / disco modes, one of which you'll never want, and one which you shouldn't use, especially indoors in CQB.

 

My local CQB (dead but arising) sodded off strobes early doors, because a great way for someone to find out that they have photosensitive epilepsy is when someone blazes a billion lumen strobe in their face at the top of a staircase.  They later amended it to say, cover them while you cycle past strobe mode.

[Tommikka]

It’s good to think of the implications 

 

According to the epilepsy society 1% of people have epilepsy, and 3% of them have photo sensitive epilepsy.  Within that 0.03% of people

 

 

(or 5% of children/young people) - 0.05% of youngsters

But non sufferers could be disorientated or unwell 

(Bearing in mind of course that the intent of strobes in a game is to disorient others)

 

There might be no effect at all on a photosensitive epileptic depending on the strobe frequency/pattern 

 

https://epilepsysociety.org.uk/about-epilepsy/epileptic-seizures/seizure-triggers/photosensitive-epilepsy

 

We’ve used strobes as players at some events - underground / indoor / night games etc and also used ‘strobing’ pyro 

(the scientists may disagree with the simplification that it’s effectively a flash bang that sets of a series of pulses rather than one bright bang)

 

As players we’ve only used them with organisers permission - either in the event rules or confirmed it’s OK

Ideally a photosensitive epileptic will identify themselves to organisers - (have you ever read the disclaimer forms that you sign or the ticket booking small print?)

An organiser would allow / disallow on the basis of what they know of the site, and of the players.

The greater risk is possibly players running into walls or tripping due to disorientation

 

 

For brightness our eyes have the natural protection of blinking, and even with lasers as long as they are UK / CE legal there should be no or negligible risk of blinding someone in game play unless you hold them down and prise their eyes open 

 

 

((We’ve used strobes mainly as dropping a torch in a corridor etc to distract people’s attention or make it hard for them to see whether they can get through it - then shooting them while they stand confused)

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tommikka

[Rogerborg]

39 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Ideally a photosensitive epileptic will identify themselves to organisers -

 

If they're aware of it.  A dark, cluttered CQB environment with pieces of hard plastic whizzing around is a poor place to find out.  The Depot used to ask if anyone was epileptic and allow or prohibit use on a day to day bases. Then they just blanket banned them, and I'd wonder if it's because someone learned the hard way.

 

 

39 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

(have you ever read the disclaimer forms that you sign or the ticket booking small print?)

 

Yes, the parts listing player's duties of care to each other and to the site make sense, and I'd always encourage people to let sites know about any relevant medical conditions.

 

The parts that attempt to waive and disclaim sites' duties of care or liabilities towards players are very, very silly indeed though, and I do wish they'd stop mucking around with that nonsense.

[Cannonfodder]

Whilst there may not have been any verified reports of strobes causing epileptic fits, I'd rather not be the cause of the first

[Lozart]

3 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

Righty folks, I've been looking at tac lights and I've seen ones with brightness rating of anywhere between 200 and 3000 lumens. As I don't want something that'll be as useless as a tea light in a jam jar or able to burn out other player's retinas with a quick flash, what sort of output should I be looking at? 

 

All help is much appreciated 

 

Horses for courses - part of the purpose of proper tactical lights is to dazzle your target hence they go into the 1000's of lumens. Navigation lighting is usually more subtle so you can see where you're going without (completely) giving away your position.

 

So if you want to see where you're going but not crisp up vegetation or strip paint at 100m then get something in the 200-600 range. If you want to be "that guy" then go big or go home. Preferably with a strobe.

[SSPKali]

I have the Olight Valkyrie as a main weapons light (and the smaller 1 CR123 for the pistol) and while it is a great bit of kit and very bright it can be too bright and the reflected light from use in small, painted rooms dazzle the user! 

 

I have a scope flip-up cap (with the cap and spring / hinge wings cut off) holding a 2mm thick red tinted lexan over the lens - this moderates the output and preserves *some* of my vision! Easy to pull the cover off and dazzle the opposition if needed (say, outside or in larger spaces)

[Rogerborg]

5 hours ago, Lozart said:

crisp up vegetation

 

That's actually not a bad metric for determining real output.  I've got plenty of 10,00,0000 Chinese-lumen torches which do work well enough for indoor CQB, but recently purchased a "mere" 800 lumen bicycle headlight which is actually painful to hold a hand in front of.

[Shamal]

Night Evolution weapon light is my toy for night games and bunker games. It has a great throw,good spread but still a coherent beam with a very bright centre. Activated by pressure pads or can be on solid and has two small nav lights activated by small thumb push.

Not sure of lumens but is very bright.

[Cannonfodder]

So I decided to bite the bullet and ordered this lot from amazon for £38 posted

 

A quick test in the corridor at work and I'm happy. I might add a little tape to the edges of the lens to create a narrower beam though

Edited September 14, 2021 by Cannonfodder

[Cannonfodder]

For comparison here's a pic from the same spot but lit with the handheld light which is 230 lumens (pictured above at the bottom) 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Cannonfodder

[Rogerborg]

That looks great.  What (re)brand did you go for? 

[Guest]

Olight Valkyrie Pro here, great for target shooting, massively too bright to use in the vicinity of other players (1500 lumens, 1.5 hr run time).

Has strobe and constant on functions 

[Cannonfodder]

5 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

That looks great.  What (re)brand did you go for? 

It's some Chinese company called Wholefire, whether its a knock off of something more expensive I've no idea. The other light is Defender Lumos by Solon Security (apparently standard issue to the police) 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Cannonfodder said:

It's some Chinese company called Wholefire

 

Fair enough, there are loads of SureFire clones out there. Vastfire, Windfire, Starfire... wait, that one might be a superhero.

[Rogerborg]

So, I have a small pistol torch / laser combo that seems noticeably brighter than my larger torches even though it has a smaller collimator / reflector.

 

It takes 2 x 16340 / RCR123A cells side-by-side, and I had a crazy thought: what if it's actually running the same LED chip as every other torch that takes a single 3.7V 18650, but driving it at 7.4V, and damn the consequences?

 

And further, are 16340 cells close enough to half the length of a single 18650 that you can just drop two of them into an 18650 torch in series and over-drive it at double voltage?

 

Well, it turns out that you can, that it's super, duper bright, that you really shouldn't look into it to see how bright, and that I hope to regian my vissoin by moarning.

[noctu]

On 20/09/2021 at 22:51, Rogerborg said:

...driving it at 7.4V, and damn the consequences?

 

 

Logically then, you should next hook it up to an 11.1 lipo and make yourself a lasgun.

 

Or a hot melty mess.

[Stratton Oakmont]

If I haven’t strobed scorch marks on the retinas of the other team then what’s the point of having a torch as a tactical advantage 

I used to run a maglight and I might as well have used this