Airsoft Governing Bodies

[Adolf Hamster]

somewhat topically relevant given todays news with regards to returning after lockdown.

 

figured it might be worth discussing what our thoughts are in general when it comes to the subject of a governing body for airsoft, what options are out there, what we think we'd like to see it become, etc etc.

 

seems the de-facto candidate would be ukapu but i'm curious if they have any competitors, or perhaps if there's scope they don't currently cover that might be worth them looking at. the vrca was before my time but afaik wasn't it ukapu who managed to prevent us from 2-toned oblivion?

 

i guess for me i'd quite like to see something that provides not just representation in the legal/political sphere, but also guidance for sites, ideas on best practice, even things like training for site owners/marshalls (eg consistent rules on how/when/why a player should be banned)

 

one of the big annoyances with airsoft (at least my experience of it so far) is the lottery of sites, it's seemingly anywhere from sub-sections of larger businesses that have airsoft as part of a range of activities such as paintball, assault courses, teambuilding events etc, right the way through to farmer joe who's more than happy to let a bunch of folk run around his land of a sunday evening for £20 a head.

 

problem is with no real formal guidance these places can be anywhere from one or two "marshalls" (read: couple of the site owners kids doing marshalling for pocket money) and a laughably open chrono setup (or even none at all) right the way through to places that try their best but get stuck in bad practice (such as the ol' 1fps over with the hop turned off on .2's  and you're gone no we don't care that joule creep is a thing) types.

 

needless to say the grassroots nature of airsoft has it's charms, ease of access being one of them, and i realize that this sort of thing isn't going to happen overnight, but it would be nice to dream of a world where you can rock up to a governed site with reasonable expectations on what the place is gonna be like.

[Asomodai]

ATB May be a front runner, though they wont use the ATB name afaik, they are looking to form an elected body. 

 

Quote

This is going to be a bit of a long one, so put the kettle on/grab a beer, sit down and get comfy.

We feel an update is needed to cover a number of areas, so apologies for the length of this post in advance.

Firstly, as the majority of you are already aware of, the Government has updated their online guidance, with airsoft venues now specifically named and included in the category of ‘Visitor Economy’ (VE). Examples of VE organisations include Zoos, leisure parks and theme parks, which is a category a number of sites have used for their guidance through lockdown. VE isn’t specifically referred to in the roadmap out of lockdown, however organisations that fall in to this category are included in the Stage 2, reopening from the 12th April.

Prior to this update, a number of sites had received approval from their local EHO to reopen under Stage 1 from 29th March. We believe these decisions will have been made following the guidelines for grassroots sports and sports providers. Airsoft sites are required to submit detailed plans including their Covid secure measures and risk assessments, in order to receive an official go-ahead to reopen. In these instances, we recommend that sites contact their EHO and insurer to seek guidance and further approval for whether they can go ahead with reopening before 12th April, in order to not breach any covid restrictions or laws, and to ensure they have insurance cover.

To muddy the waters a little further, dual or multi use sites which offer paintball may receive guidance that differs from sites that are solely for airsoft.

In February 2021, Billy Gumbrell - ATB Chairman, wrote to Nigel Huddlestone, MP for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport, to seek official clarification and guidance from the government, for the airsoft industry. As of Friday 26th March 2021, we were still waiting for an official response. We were hoping to present the email and response together, however the events in the last 24 hours have pushed us to release our email without the response. A copy of this will be included at the bottom of this post.

Progress behind the scenes at the ATB has been good, however the need to re-build the structure from the ground up was identified. The process of forming an unincorporated association to protect ATB intellectual property (domains, website, member database etc) is well underway, along with moves towards registering for charity status as a not for profit organisation. Unfortunately there have been a number of hurdles to overcome and the process has taken a lot longer than hoped. The new formation and drive of the ATB is a very different beast to previous versions, and it comes with many (painful) set up processes mentioned above and more, to become formal and legal.

Last week we were finalising work on the ATB website and members forum which will better suit our needs. Up until now Facebook has been used as the mode to communicate with members of the ATB group and for announcements, but it is safe to say is not appropriate for our needs. It is the intention of the ATB Committee to be transparent with its members and the wider airsoft community. Providing minutes from meetings, general airsoft information, news, resources, support and more, with public and password protected member areas, all in one place.

We will bring you more information and announce the website going live as soon as possible.

To address the conversations and concerns in regards forming a Governing Body, please be aware that this is not a simple or quick process. Nor is it a process that will be solely undertaken by the ATB. An airsoft governing body will be a separate entity to the ATB, with its own elected Committee, with input from various airsoft organisational bodies, groups and representatives. These are discussions that are ongoing.

We welcome any and all questions along with constructive feedback. Please be reminded that we will not tolerate ‘trolling’ or bullying on this page and all comments will be moderated.

______________________________________________

Dear Mr Huddleston,

I hope this email finds you in good health and good spirits in these trying times. I am writing to you as the Chairman of the Airsoft Trade Body to seek yours and your departments’ advice and guidance for our industry. Airsoft in an activity similar to paintball with approximately 100,000 players, 200+ gaming venues and around 150 additional businesses in retail, wholesale and repair.

The Airsoft Trade Body (ATB) was formed in 2014 to represent and protect the industry and players amid the gun law changes within the policing and crime bill. While the guns that are used in airsoft are toys and cannot be converted to be used as a firearm, they are classed as replica imitation firearms (RIF) and have the potential to be used in crime. In order to prevent these RIFs falling in to the wrong hands and to protect the industry, it was agreed with the government that the airsoft industry would become self-governing, with the sale of airsoft guns restricted to genuine airsoft players.

The ATB has remained as an advisory body for the industry since and has tackled other minor threats to airsoft. The biggest challenge and threat we are currently facing is Covid. Our members look to us for guidance on legislation, opening dates, financial aid, grants and supporting their staff. Currently the best we can legally offer them is signposting to relevant Government and local council webpages. Airsoft is currently a hobby or leisure activity, has all of the traits of a sport but cannot be recognised as such due to the lack of official governing body. This has left the gaming venues confused as to how their business is classed, and, as such, which category they fall under for re-opening dates. We cannot yet class airsoft as a sport, yet some businesses have been informed by their local authority that they fall into this category, while other LAs have informed businesses that they are classed as a leisure activity. Unfortunately a number of businesses have been informed that they don’t fall under any category and haven’t had the go-ahead from their EHO to open at any point in between lockdowns. These businesses are essentially facing a postcode lottery as to whether they can fight to survive or simply throw in the towel due to lack of income and lack of financial grants.

As an example of the above, 3 sites in the North of England received very different guidance from their local EHO. One site was told they could only open to under 18’s, one site was told they couldn’t open at all, and a site in the neighbouring jurisdiction of the site forced to close were allowed to open with no restrictions at all, as long as they were Covid secure. These sites provided almost identical Risk Assessments, had put in place all measures to be classed as Covid secure and had insurance policies in place.

We recognise that not having formed a governing body sooner has harmed businesses in our industry exponentially, however no-one could have predicted the arrival of Covid, nor the destruction it would cause. Information gathering and actions have been taking place to form a governing body for longer than Covid has been prevalent, and the newly elected ATB Committee have formed with the goal of forming a governing body a top priority. We would like to achieve this goal in 2021, with a view to starting the process to be recognised as an official sport in the UK.

We would like to engage, if possible with your office in order to initially protect airsoft businesses and the interests of the players, and in the future to provide guidance on our route to forming a governing body to be recognised as a sport in the UK.

Unfortunately a number of businesses have already closed in this past year, in particular woodland based gaming venues which have no rateable value. With little to no other financial support from the government they have been unable to pay for their rent, insurance and security amongst other financial commitments. Some indoor venues have been heavily affected, with different guidance and restrictions being put in place by their local EHO.

While we don’t yet have financial figures to demonstrate how much the industry contributes to the economy and service industries related to us (logistics, insurance, rental industries), a significant number of businesses are VAT registered, with the top 10 turning over millions of pounds.

Airsoft businesses and groups are closely involved with charity work, especially for military related charities. One initiative alone is approaching £50,000 for RBLI, raising PTSD awareness. A surprising number of serving and veteran military members play airsoft, with Veterans finding the community they have missed since leaving and ones struggling with combat PTSD ironically finding therapeutic benefit from the game! As a long serving member of the British Armed Forces, I can attest to the benefits airsoft brings to the forces community.

Other players come from a wide variety of backgrounds, with female players seeing a surge of numbers. The number of young people, inspired by first person shooter games is growing exponentially, with parents supporting their interest as a healthy activity that gets them away from their games console. Reasons players enjoy the activity include feeling part of a community, fitness, stress relief, managing depression and of course having a good time.

What we are asking for from you and your department initially and somewhat urgently, is to provide overruling guidance for the different game sites and environments. The different environments are as follows:

Woodland sites, open air - These sites have areas known as a safe zone which is where the nearest contact players will have with each other. Measures to make these Covid secure have been to implement one way systems through the zone, areas divided to maintain social distancing, safe zones being closed with players working from their cars where social distancing is not possible due to the size of the safe zone, communal areas such as toilet facilities being thoroughly cleaned, the wearing of face coverings being worn at all times, hand sanitiser being supplied and use of enforced, no sharing of equipment, no mixing of individuals that are not in a social bubble.

Indoor sites - Measures to make these Covid secure have been to implement one way systems through the safe zone, areas divided to maintain social distancing, reduced player numbers to ensure social distancing can be maintained in the safe zone, communal areas such as toilet facilities being thoroughly cleaned, the wearing of face coverings being worn at all times, hand sanitiser being supplied and use of enforced, no sharing of equipment, no mixing of individuals that are not in a social bubble.

I appreciate that you and your department are extremely busy at the moment and are under a lot of pressure, but I do hope to hear from you in due course.

Thank you for your attention and I hope to hear from you or your department soon.

Best Regards

Billy Gumbrell

 

ATB UK | Facebook

[Adolf Hamster]

sounds like they're wanting to get an official body setup, which would be good if they can do it right.

 

i can see the biggest hurdle is going to be awareness and buy-in, i mean i've been to sites that don't bother with ukara (as in they cant be bothered setting themselves up on the system so they can get their members/regular players registered) and i can see it being hard to persuade them to go for something like this.

 

 

[Albiscuit]

I agree with your site lottery, as someone who like to try loads of different sites I have experienced such a range of professionalism and and lack of at different sites. Some have great rules and games but are disorganised and feel dangerous and others seem to have got it spot on whilst most are a mix of the two with good points and bad when it comes to organisation.

It is a personal Airsoft gripe of mine .

 

In all honesty though I have. It thought too much about it and it seems like a potential ball ache to even work out where to start. I feel it’s likely going to take something major to happen to get the hobby organised with a proper governing body 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

There are several governing bodies for shooting sports.  I imagine that it would not be a stupendous job to modify a set of existing rules for airsoft sites.

 

Muzzle energy limits and eye pro specs are read out at ranges  up and down the country.

 

I don't like regulation, bit I expect that if we don't regulate ourselves, some clueless knee jerk legislation may follow some incident or other.  

[MadMole]

UKAPU would be the obvious choice

[GenuineGerman]

It could be worth getting an organisation that regulates the sites so there are a standard set of rules, Marshall’s attended the same courses, insurance is provided by a overarching organisation etc. This would show the government that we can self regulate and be considered a proper sport. I think that this is a doubled edge sword but it would ensure survival long term and stop numpties who can’t be arsed with two tones etc.   

Edited March 28, 2021 by GenuineGerman

[Druid799]

I’d say UKAPU as well , ATB is the organisation for the people making a living out of the sport so to Be brutally honest not to be trusted . It’s like any trade organisation ultimately there going to go with what ever options that rocks the boat the least(as you’d expect anyone to do in a business)that safeguards there business and NOT the end user . Classic example I’m a nurse the the main nursing union is the RCN Royal College of Nurses , when ever there’s any kind of dispute they will fight it all the way until there’s a risk the nursing profession could be shown in a bad light(doing a full walk out on strike and the like) they buckle , someone says patient care ‘mite’ suffer ? They buckle every time . UNISON the non nursing union ? nope they fight all the way for there members .

so I say UKAPU because they’ve got the least too loose so you know they’ll keep fighting when the ATB will buckle because it could put there business at risk . 

[DaktariT]

I feel that you need a base line to declare Airsoft as a sport such as an arena style game. Making it easier to see that it isn't just a mish-mash of kids and adults just running around shooting eachother as the general public's idea of a sport tended to be quite so linear. From there you add to it as people become more aware.

 

[MiK]

@Druid799 Talks sense tbh, businesses are there to make money and as much as they say and no matter how friendly they come across now they will always put their business first if it meant not going bust by defending this or that legislation. 

[BigStew]

1 hour ago, GenuineGerman said:

It could be worth getting an organisation that regulates the sites so there are a standard set of rules, Marshall’s attended the same courses, insurance is provided by a overarching organisation etc. This would show the government that we can self regulate and be considered a proper sport. I think that this is a doubled edge sword but it would ensure survival long term and stop numpties who can’t be arsed with two tones etc.   

No airsofter would pay the green fee required to fund this.

[John_W]

The ABA was the interim governing body during the VCRA, but faded away afterwards. 

At the time there was a lot of internal politics. No-one on Arnies wanted anything to do with a body that had representatives from ASCUK involved, and vice versa. Some site owners (Nutz from SWAT being a prime example) were opposed to anyone telling them how to play with their train set. 

Too many people want a "light touch" body, but governments tend to want something more organised and in control.

[DaktariT]

We need to drop what has come before and start a fresh.

An Airsoft body needs to be for the players and dictate to the sites not the other way round. Most sites seemed to be short lived due to agreement set in the favour of the landowner who easily close the sites when better monies become available. We need something new.

[Adolf Hamster]

33 minutes ago, DaktariT said:

We need to drop what has come before and start a fresh.

An Airsoft body needs to be for the players and dictate to the sites not the other way round. Most sites seemed to be short lived due to agreement set in the favour of the landowner who easily close the sites when better monies become available. We need something new.

 

in the long run it would be nice to have a kind of minimum standard for sites, but initially sites just won't listen so anything the governing body does initially needs buy-in from the sites or it won't work.

 

edit: to clarify i don't have an answer for how to go about getting it setup, i'm just pondering on what i'd like to see eventually because it sucks not being able to predict if a day is gonna be utterly amazing or completely shit when the quality of play is almost entirely down to the caliber of players who decided to pick that site on that day.

[Tommikka]

There needs to be something that represents every community, whether that is an overarching body or a consortium of the players, sites and trade/retail.

A body that is just for the players will just be a players body.  Sites can just take no notice - and there still won’t be anything to enable sites to open

 

Airsoft is meant to be cheaper than paintball, but paintball can run to a set standard, pay the staff and not rely on player Marshall’s like some sites.

Airsoft is cheaper in BBs, and the cost of rental paintballs are vastly higher than walkon paintballs.

There is some wiggle room to up airsoft green fees.  Tiny sites may still be unviable - which reflects the fact that paintball is propped up by the rental player, however ‘walk-on’ airsofters are more regular with games run weekly in comparison to walkon paintball run monthly 

 

It’s not critical for every site to subscribe to a governing body (but a body will represent members in favour of non members)

Hopefully the small sites are insured etc - otherwise if it’s a tiny site with unpaid ‘staff’, uninsured and unsafe then that’s what you want to wean out or get onboard 

There are basic standards that should be in place - muzzle energy / velocity, BB standards, safety standards,  insurance, marshal to player ratios (which can differ between one off rentals and regular player games), eye protection (Id like to wipe glasses off the minimum and make it sealed goggles around the eye area, or full face - but insurers are happy with accepting impact glasses, so that’s a minimum standard for starters)

Rules and fine tuning can be left to sites or for later editions - perhaps a tweak of the ‘minimum’ for woods/open urban/CQB/unusual environments 

[DaktariT]

9 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

in the long run it would be nice to have a kind of minimum standard for sites, but initially sites just won't listen so anything the governing body does initially needs buy-in from the sites or it won't work.

I know of sites that are for the players as these sites have been set up by players. This could form a core of compliant sites which could uphold a standard set of guidelines. 

[Tommikka]

9 minutes ago, DaktariT said:

I know of sites that are for the players as these sites have been set up by players. This could form a core of compliant sites which could uphold a standard set of guidelines. 

Though sites by players for players are sites 

 

Unless it’s a private field/team field etc  - generally known as outlaw in the US

[Cyberlawyer]

One of my other big hobbies is racing RC cars, they have a recognised national body (BRCA) so all affiliated outdoor tracks will be running from Monday. Looking at the BRCA model it shouldn’t be too hard to set up something robust that could get recognised as a governing body. As I see it the two biggest hurdles are:

 

1. Actually getting enough consensus in the airsoft community to agree a constitution and initial set of rules for such a body.

 

2. Funding the body.

 

For 1 to be effective a critical mass of organisers have to sign-up and agree to a common set of rules such that unaffiliated sites are in the minority and market forces either compel them to join or close. Unless the vast majority of sites are onboard getting recognised as a governing body will be very difficult.

 

For 2 to work players would probably have to pay an annual membership fee (with a grace period for new players) to the governing body to be able to play at affiliated sites to cover direct cost. Not to mention some sites fees could go up to cover the cost of implementing the new rules if they don’t have them in place already (mandated minimum insurance, ratios for Marshals to players, mandatory first aid training etc).

 

At the moment I just don’t see it happening as there are two many opposing interests in play. It may happen at the point there is a big enough external threat to overcome these individual interests (e.g draft legislation banning airsoft) but by that time it may be too late.....

[BigStew]

28 minutes ago, DaktariT said:

We need to drop what has come before and start a fresh.

An Airsoft body needs to be for the players and dictate to the sites not the other way round. Most sites seemed to be short lived due to agreement set in the favour of the landowner who easily close the sites when better monies become available. We need something new.

We are not going to get something new. sites are going under left right and centre. 1 from the lock down 2 airsoft sites are a pocket money to landlords and with the price of timber wood land sites are getting harvested and CQB site is always under threat from redeveloped. As I said Airsoft rent for landlords is pocket money and site owners have no power or leverage so cannot be more trouble than they are worth or loss their site. Current green fees are around £25 quid most sites i know are lucky if they get 80 player regularly  26 weeks a year. so 25*80*26 =52,000 year add maybe 30 hires at £30 on top of green fees so another £23,400 a year then maybe £300/£400 a game day in piro, bbs, snacks  so another £10400 all together a relatively busy site will taken in £85,800. that sounds like alot it's not( your local comer shop probable has a half million a year turn over) . take off rent, insurance, hire gun maintance/replacement, site maintance, taxes maybe chucking your marshals petrol money there maybe enough for the site owner to pay themselves and alright wage. unless people are willing to club together and buy land for site and pay dues, airsoft will be at the bottom of the ladder and the player base aren't really in any positions to demand standards.

[DaktariT]

Throughout the thread we've discussed who and what but the icing on the cake is we need a body that covers both the needs of the player and seemingly as the discussion continues sites also.

Edited March 28, 2021 by DaktariT

[lukeB]

Why do we need a governing body, just because we can’t pew for an extra two weeks  during lockdown?

 

I can’t see why any site would want to sign up to a body that tells them how to run their business, never going to happen.
 

 

 

 

 

[typefish]

14 minutes ago, lukeB said:

Why do we need a governing body, just because we can’t pew for an extra two weeks  during lockdown?

 

I can’t see why any site would want to sign up to a body that tells them how to run their business, never going to happen.

 

The problem isn't about people not being able to wait two weeks to play again. Honestly, I'm baffled about today's absolutely bizarre outpouring of emotion.

 

The actual problem is more that pre-Covid, universities were struggling to set up their student unions due to airsoft, that is for all intents and purposes a sport - is not seen as a sport due to a lack of a governing body.

 

In one instance, someone thought some random retailer was the governing body, based on the name "airsoft" followed by the initials for "governing body"

 

Edit: and it doesn't even need to be recognised. It just needs to be a thing

Edited March 28, 2021 by typefish

[Shamal]

If it ain't broke don't fix it!

 

I know that maxim goes over the head of a lot of you who buy a brand new gun and proceed to tear it apart lol.

 

Another good old saying.. too many cooks spoil the broth....think about it!

Regards 

 

[Tommikka]

29 minutes ago, lukeB said:

Why do we need a governing body, just because we can’t pew for an extra two weeks  during lockdown?

 

I can’t see why any site would want to sign up to a body that tells them how to run their business, never going to happen.
 

 

 

 

 

A governing body doesn’t just govern sites -  particularly for the moment it speaks for the sites 

 

In some industries the bodies have control under legislation etc, in many more they are voluntary.  Businesses opt to join them for credibility, to have their voice heard etc

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, Tommikka said:

Though sites by players for players are sites 

 

Unless it’s a private field/team field etc  - generally known as outlaw in the US

 

are you meaning sites that are run by airsoft players as opposed to businessmen?

 

because from what i've seen those kinds of sites can have issues of becoming cliquey/unwelcoming to folks outside the core group.

 

there is value in the owner/marshall staff of a venue having a certain impartiality to the player base.

 

53 minutes ago, lukeB said:

Why do we need a governing body, just because we can’t pew for an extra two weeks  during lockdown?

 

I can’t see why any site would want to sign up to a body that tells them how to run their business, never going to happen.

 

as i mentioned in the op it's more than just the lockdown issue, although that is a symptom that highlights the problem.

 

the main thing (for me at least, others will have their own opinions) is the airsoft lottery where sites can be pretty decent to woefully bad, with the most common symptom being very weak organisation/enforcement of rules with chronic lack of marshalling.

 

there's also the issue of fighting the legal battles, say the government decides a flat 1j limit would be a good idea- who have we got to fight that? if they see one too many daily fail article about some chav and his pew being dumb and decide to bring in all the 2-tones, that kind of thing.

 

in the long run a site should want to sign up to the governing body, make it a badge of honour, if you're part of that network is means you're site is going to have systems in place to be consistent, and players will want to play at your site because they know you're able to offer them a good time. additionally a body representing hundreds of sites that follow a consistent ruleset will probably have a better chance of getting a good insurance bulk deal than a bunch of independants.

 

i for one don't like walking off-site before lunchtime because a group of arseholes has picked to play at that field and the site won't or can't do anything to address the issue.

 

44 minutes ago, Shamal said:

Another good old saying.. too many cooks spoil the broth....think about it!

 

that's kind of our point, currently every site owner is his own cook, does things his own way.

 

what we want is mcdonalds- it might not be the best, but you know what you're getting.

 

1 hour ago, Cyberlawyer said:

but by that time it may be too late.....

 

i hate how much i agree with this