Call Your Hits, or a Cautionary Tale of Marksmanship

[Adolf Hamster]

this probably isn't going to come as a great revelation to most  but i figured it's an interesting story that maybe merits use as a means of reminding people about the greatest of airsoft sins- the non hit taker.

 

so to preface this we all know the cry, "call yer [redacted] hits you [redacted]", a yell of frustration at the perceived sin of a player breaking the honesty on which our game is based. it's a trap we've all fallen into and i won't deny having fallen for it many times myself.

 

of course the key word there is "perceived", to many the issue of crying foul is just as egregious as cheating in the first place, no doubt born from having been on the receiving end of such accusations and knowing that the supposed "hit" flew wide (or in my case dropped short).

 

it's a lesson it took me many years to learn, that it's really worth giving the benefit of the doubt in a lot of situations. these days i do my utmost to let things slide unless not only do i see the round make contact, but i know the range and hit location are such that there is no chance of a legitimate no-feel (especially important when engaging at the limits of your range)

 

however recently i had quite an interesting experience that really highlighted the whole issue.

 

a fella had popped up at the site with a rather fancy dynamic targeting system, you had 4 head sized targets which would detect a hit and fold away. really rather snazzy.

 

the site owner had decided to run a little shooting competition, nothing too fancy. the targets were spaced with 2 at 10m, and 2 at 20m. they were set with a 4s exposure time after which they'd hide for about 10 seconds (cant remember how long it was exactly).

 

when you hit a target it'd fold away and stay there. so the aim of the game was simply to get all 4 targets as fast as possible. if you hit a target and it didn't pop then it was still counted to make it fair for folks with underpowered gats.

 

so in the spirit of "this looks like a lark" i decided to have a crack at it, thought i did rather well with a 13 second time to take down all 4. i'll self-profess to not being a particularly good marksman although i do pride myself on making sure my hardware is well dialled in.

 

however what i found interesting was the other competitors, one in particular who was running with a very snappy high-speed m4 managed to expend a hell of a lot of plastic (well over 100 rounds total) and finished in over 40 seconds. watching his shots they were all flying high- the sign of an over-set hop unit although the dispersion showed it was evidently a decent enough gat. what surprised me was that instead of watching where his rounds were going and compensating he just kept firing and firing.

 

now you might argue that perhaps i'm a better marksman than i think i am, or that perhaps my obsession with mechanical accuracy meant i had equipment advantage, however that's easily countered by pointing out the winner was a kid running what appeared to be an unmodified arp556.

 

so this was a bit of fun but it did make me think that perhaps there's a lot more folk out there than i suspected who think their shots are going somewhere different to the reality, and maybe many more of those crys of anguish could be suppressed simply by people putting some effort into knowing their equipment and paying attention to their shots as they fly downrange.

[Impulse]

I totally agree here; a lot of people get mad and shout about hit taking when they have no idea where their BBs are going. I've had people moan to me with "I shot you like 19 times!" when they just did a great job at lighting up the bush/foliage, or their BBs are falling 10 - 20m too short. At the end of the day, you're firing a projectile that weighs a fraction of a gram at around 1J; it's going to be affected by literally everything, from wind to stray leaves to temperature. Even bolt actions will have issues if there's a leaf in your shot's path; trust me, I've seen way too many of my shots ruined by a dangly leaf...

 

It's a little different as a bush wookiee, because you're usually taking shots at targets who have no idea you're there and through magnified optics. Maybe that's why I generally don't get annoyed about non-hit taking, because at the longer ranges, even with a scope, I can't tell if I've hit or not unless the person reacts to the shot. Seeing a 6mm BB at 75m is pretty darn difficult. Also, non-hit takers are a little bit amusing when you're using a boltie. If I'm slinging .48s at 2.3J, people feel it and will flinch from the hits so it's super obvious if they're not taking their hits. Furthermore, because they have no idea where the shots are coming from, I can usually make a follow up shot to convince them to leave.

[Druid799]

Totally agree with every point you’ve made ! I’ve always been of the opinion it’s not the kit that matters it’s the player . How many times have we ALL seen ‘that’ player with a gatt that on paper should dominate a game field but they can’t hit shit with it BUT equally how many times have we all also seen a virgin fresh rental guy play like a demon with one of the sites crappy G36/M4/AK Beta ???? Good guns can make a difference but If you’ve got some right cockwomble pulling the trigger who hasn’t a clue how to set up his kit properly(set the hop , zero the sight) then it’s like pissing in the wind . Plus I’ve always thought the ranges we shoot at once you get to know how your gun handles , feels ,  shoots then realistically you should be able to hit a head’n’shoulder sized target at most sites with out a scope or sights just by intuition.

[Adolf Hamster]

the only problem with flinchers is it might not be a flinch from a hit, but instead a near miss.

 

i recall a perfect instance when firing at a fella with the dragonuv, came close enough that he noticed it fly by and flinched but i know for sure it didn't land.

 

but the fella beside me was crying "you hit him, see him flinch"

[sharpe]

4 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

the only problem with flinchers is it might not be a flinch from a hit, but instead a near miss.

 

i recall a perfect instance when firing at a fella with the dragonuv, came close enough that he noticed it fly by and flinched but i know for sure it didn't land.

 

but the fella beside me was crying "you hit him, see him flinch"

 

I have flinched so many times after hearing a "ting" next to me or just behind me and all i've heard is "I F**king hit you, come on!" even seen some heated arguments between players about it before.

[Adolf Hamster]

5 minutes ago, sharpe said:

 

I have flinched so many times after hearing a "ting" next to me or just behind me and all i've heard is "I F**king hit you, come on!" even seen some heated arguments between players about it before.

 

Im sure we all have, you hear the pitter patter of bb's hitting around you and hit the deck.

 

I remember calling myself out without a hit because after god knows how many rounds even i couldnt beleive none had made it through the thin hedge i was using as cover.

[Skara]

This is why I am obsessed with hop up rubbers.

 

Don't give a shit if my gun does 4000 rounds per second, if it can't get bbs down range with reasonable consistency it's a shit gun.

I have noticed that many people (at least in my club) have no clue on how airsoft physics work, I've had to set the hop for a bunch of people already.

Quite depressing as these guys are the ones who usually moan a lot about hit taking.

 

Obviously shots deflected by vegetation (usually the only hanging leaf/sticking branch in the whole field) are frustrating, especially as a sniper because it means racking the bolt and/or drawing a sidearm, which causes movement and the chance to give your position away.

 

3 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

I remember calling myself out without a hit because after god knows how many rounds even i couldnt beleive none had made it through the thin hedge i was using as cover.

I do that often, especially when the guy is really close. He might have not hit me on the first burst, but the second will 100% hit me, so I just call it and walk away

[leadly]

The first time I played a Leicester Gaol, pretty much a CQB site, I couldn't help but be lured into a bush with my ARP9 and drum mag. I was holding off the other team quite well when I noticed a marshall stood 10ft away from me. I thought I was being accused of cheating, but he was actually staying there for my benefit to stop the other team claiming they hit me when the bush was eating all the bb's up!

 

Puts a smile on my face to see BB's falling short, especially a few mags worth when I've been spotted lurking with my VSR!

[Adolf Hamster]

9 minutes ago, Skara said:

I do that often, especially when the guy is really close. He might have not hit me on the first burst, but the second will 100% hit me, so I just call it and walk away

 

this was after a while playing ballistic peekaboo and i figured if i'd been the one on the other end shooting i'd be starting to get mighty suspicious.

[alxndrhll]

I don't think I had a good understanding of how RIFs were performing until I started messing around with tracer units, was definitely an eye opener into how bad I was at setting hop earlier on in my days of playing. And also how bad I was at tracking the flight of BBs, something I'm still not great at.

 

Does speak volumes as to how far taking the time to understand the very basics of what each part in a RIF does. Truthfully I think the point at which it really clicked for me has been working on my SRS and MTWs. The modular nature of how they come apart made it so easy for me to really wrap my head around what each sub section of a RIF is there to do. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and I'll happily edit, the last thing I want to do is spread misinformation.

My very rough break down of RIF sub sections:

'The Back' - Your cylinder, spring (if applicable), piston, nozzle etc. These are the parts which govern your power, power will increase your BBs travel time.
'The Middle' - Your hop unit and all that falls within it. These are the parts which govern your range, range will increase how far your BBs go. This is the part where 'the back' meets 'the front', if your seal and alignment of the back and front meeting is off you're in for a bad time in terms of consistency.

'The Front' - Your barrel, nice and easy. This is the part which governs your accuracy, accuracy will result in better groupings. I still don't fully understand 'which barrels are best'... largely becasuse like everything in airsoft there isn't objectively a best (despite how much faith folks put into anecdotal evidence). The only things I can say for sure are that a tighter bore will increase your power versus a wider bore, and the tighter the bore the more necessary regular barrel cleaning is (you should maintain your barrel in either case).

 

Intentionally very basic, and I'm sure there are many caveats but it helped me break down the 'airsoft jargon'. There are a lot of terms thrown around in airsoft, I can certainly see how that can be a bit of minefield.

[Adolf Hamster]

i kind of preferr to look at it as a whole system, but you can sort of break it down that way.

 

often you see singular recommendations being suggested as the cure for all problems.

 

like for example the upgrade the hop argument, when the reality is a perfectly set up hop unit is going to do bugger all if it's being fed shitty bb's

 

but a perfect hop with good bb's is going to still be useless if the air seal is bad

 

but a perfect hop with good bb's and perfect air seal is going to be terrible if it's being pushed out of a crappy/dirty barrel

 

but a perfect hop with good bb's, perfect air seal and a shiny good quality barrel is going to be useless if it's only pushing half a joule on a 1.3j field

 

the funny thing is often getting every aspect to be decent, will yeild better results than having one aspect particularly bad.

 

needless to say the argument here is it doesn't matter if the gun is good if the guy behind the sight isn't bothering to make sure it's adjusted properly.

[alxndrhll]

Aye, the marrying up of parts definitely feels like 'the trick' when it comes to tech work.. alongside the acceptance that a RIF 'working prefectly' only lasts so long. Nothing more painful than taking out a barrel to clean it having had it work beautifully all day, to put it back together and have something throw a wobbly. Ahh maintainance.

 

Definitely a pretty fascinating thing to consider though, during your average skirmish day you don't tend to have a sterile environment to compare yourself versus others. Even though it's just for a bit of fun it's certainly interesting, I'd love to have a go at some sort of target shooting next year.

[Adolf Hamster]

4 minutes ago, alxndrhll said:

Definitely a pretty fascinating thing to consider though, during your average skirmish day you don't tend to have a sterile environment to compare yourself versus others. Even though it's just for a bit of fun it's certainly interesting, I'd love to have a go at some sort of target shooting next year.

 

that's a good way of putting it.

 

i think what was interesting was how people were doing even when target honesty had been completely removed from the equation.

[Cannonfodder]

As a general rule if I don't see exactly where I hit the person I'll assume I missed and so fire again. 

4 hours ago, Impulse said:

I've seen way too many of my shots ruined by a dangly leaf...

 

 

Been on the receiving end in that scenario too. I remember peeking over a slight mound, when out of nowhere a sniper's BB hit the one stalk of a dead fern in front of me deflecting it away. A few mm either side and it would've hit me smack in the face

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

Interesting stuff.  

 

If you read Pondoro Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges, he describes a 250gr bullet (16g) from a .375 H&H Magnum being deflected at close range by a twig.  That was putting out about 4000ft-lb (5400joules).  

 

Far too many variables can effect a BBs flight for all the shouting that you sometimes hear.  

 

The reactive target idea sounds like a good idea to roll out.  Maybe a shot or two at a reactive target after you chrono would teach a thing or two?  

[Druid799]

8 hours ago, leadly said:

 I was holding off the other team quite well when I noticed a marshall stood 10ft away from me. I thought I was being accused of cheating, but he was actually staying there for my benefit to stop the other team claiming they hit me when the bush was eating all the bb's up!

All most identical scenario at the first NAE I went too , me and my bud laying down in a very dense block of Rodo’s holding up a ridiculously large number of Delta’s at a junction of a couple of paths for just two blokes to be doing and they where screaming blue murder they must of hit us but they hadn’t , if you know the ground zero site a lot of the undergrowth at the sides of the paths has like a mini burm running along it so if your laying down you can quite happily pick them off but they have no chance of  hiting you . Marshal turns up sticks his head in the undergrowth then pops back out and shouts “your no where near them !”  It happens .

 

I saw the head marshal at my home site a couple of times pull a player too the side who was shouting take your hits a lot asking him to point out who he was shouting at and once pointed out if he thought no chance you did he’d call up another marshal tell him to stand at an equal’ish distance and tell the player to fire three shots at the marshal AND not once did I ever see or hear of the marshals getting hit . Always thought it was a rather good lesson to learn .

[leadly]

7 hours ago, Druid799 said:

 

I saw the head marshal at my home site a couple of times pull a player too the side who was shouting take your hits a lot asking him to point out who he was shouting at and once pointed out if he thought no chance you did he’d call up another marshal tell him to stand at an equal’ish distance and tell the player to fire three shots at the marshal AND not once did I ever see or hear of the marshals getting hit . Always thought it was a rather good lesson to learn .

 

A few of my mates are guilty of either sqwarking "take you hit" or heading back to the safe zone early in a strop because of none hit taking. It didn't take long for me to realise that this was a regular occurrence. 

 

Makes me want to buy a range finder just so I can call them out!

[Jaylordofwaargh]

Yet again I mourn for the loss of Combat South, their crono and testing area had metal head and torso pinned to trees. These were near enough level despite the drop off, ranged at 27, 45m (and 70m I think). You could hear the plink so you knew what was hitting where. I like to think this reduced the amount of "take your hit" crying but this is likely a rose tinted view.

 

 

[Skara]

11 minutes ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

Yet again I mourn for the loss of Combat South, their crono and testing area had metal head and torso pinned to trees. These were near enough level despite the drop off, ranged at 27, 45m (and 70m I think). You could hear the plink so you knew what was hitting where. I like to think this reduced the amount of "take your hit" crying but this is likely a rose tinted view.

That is not a bad idea!

 

Having a permanent firing range on the field, so that people can a) set the hop correctly and b) understand they gun's range and hopefully stop bitching about people supposedly not calling hits

[DerDer]

20 minutes ago, Skara said:

That is not a bad idea!

 

Having a permanent firing range on the field, so that people can a) set the hop correctly and b) understand they gun's range and hopefully stop bitching about people supposedly not calling hits

It's also a positive from a safety perspective. You have a designated area rather than people sticking a barrel out of the safe zone or letting off a burst in the car park to "see if it works". 

[Skara]

3 minutes ago, DerDer said:

It's also a positive from a safety perspective. You have a designated area rather than people sticking a barrel out of the safe zone or letting off a burst in the car park to "see if it works". 

Not having a safezone here, I always see this kind of scenes, people plugging batteries in and letting off bursts without checking for others.

 

Yep, I definitely need to talk about this with my club's president.

[Adolf Hamster]

5 hours ago, Skara said:

That is not a bad idea!

 

Having a permanent firing range on the field, so that people can a) set the hop correctly and b) understand they gun's range and hopefully stop bitching about people supposedly not calling hits

 

it has to be of decent length though.

 

plenty of sites have "ranges" where you're talking maybe 10m max range, nowhere near good enough for setting a hop on even a 1j gun.

 

even the range i was referring to in the op was 20m max and feasable to do with minimal hop.

[Cannonfodder]

While a decent length range isn't always feasible for all sites, there's nothing to stop a player going into the game area before play starts to set their hop up or zero sights

 

IIRC rift have a zero tolerance policy to dry firing in the safezone, anyone caught doing it is immediately sent home. While this may seem a bit harsh it only takes one person to accidentally leave 'one up the spout' for someone to have a very bad day

[Adolf Hamster]

Thats normally what i do these days, need a nice long distance to get everything set.

[Hatchet]

8 hours ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

Yet again I mourn for the loss of Combat South, their crono and testing area had metal head and torso pinned to trees. These were near enough level despite the drop off, ranged at 27, 45m (and 70m I think). You could hear the plink so you knew what was hitting where. I like to think this reduced the amount of "take your hit" crying but this is likely a rose tinted view.

 

 

 

Also I think 52m, 84m and 91m. Although the 91m involved an element of luck. Also needed to not have a bunch of AEG's unloading into the close range targets if you were to have any chance of hearing the impact.

I suspect the morning briefing on reporting perceived problems to the marshalls rather than shouting the odds yourself probably played a larger part.  However, a reality check for those who are convinced their AEG's shoot 100m is never a bad thing.