Cunning or Cheating?

[Tommikka]

42 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

 

 

I moved in to the same room as the kid who'd just shot me and notice that someone from the opposing team had entered behind him and was asking him which team he was on. I also noticed the guy asking was on the opposite team (guy asking hadn't noticed/acknowledged me). So shot him once in the plate carrier. At which point he proclaims that we are both out because he could have shot the kid if he wanted to and chose not to.

 

 

He isn’t bullet proof while asking someone what side they are on

2 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

That's the way I see it too. Bang/surrender should only be used when you can tap them on the back with your gun pointed at their head etc.

 

Funnily enough I did also see a guy who I knew was having severe issues trying to get his gun to work properly, run in to a room shouting "bang, bang, bang, bang" and trying to convince the four rentals that were defending it that they were all out. 

Absolutely 

I see these as two rules:

 

Surrender: A request for the opposition to accept elimination.  They can take it or shoot back, when calling surrender you should be ready to enforce it (and you might be bluffing due to running out of ammunition, so sometimes you get lucky & sometimes you don’t 

 

Tag: You are close enough to touch, and in doing so you achieve the elimination.  There is no choice for the eliminated player 

(You could also be out of ammunition, but you successfully tagged)

 

I’m less keen on a generic ‘bang’ rule, to me it sits between surrender and tag and I prefer the option of surrender at a short distance or tag close up 

[Impulse]

Honestly, I think it's fine. I've seen it happen at my local site and it's just sneaky. Think of it as Viet Cong style tactics.

 

If they don't have their hand up, just put one into their plate carrier to be sure. Not a burst of full-auto, just a single, semi-auto shot to the chest. I don't think anybody can complain you're overshooting them with a single semi-auto shot, and usually if they're doing the dead-man walk they're a really easy target, so you don't need a burst of full auto to hit them. If you do, I'm going to advise you to get some practice on the range 😅

 

This is how I'll deal with it. If I see it far away, I'll send a shot from my sniper rifle into their torso and if they're in my MED I'll pull my pistol and put one into the chest. Yes, it's annoying because any shooting can reveal my hide location, but if my one shot can stop an enemy player from wiping a dozen people from my team by shooting them in the back, it's worth it. Nobody has ever officially complained about me overshooting, though I have had a handful of "I'm already dead!" shouts of annoyance into the wind. Less than you may think though, especially when you consider I use heavy BBs, so they sting a bit more.

[Cr0-Magnon]

What next though? Hiding your ARMBAND, because hey the marshal didn't say we COULDN'T!? 

[Tommikka]

18 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

What next though? Hiding your ARMBAND, because hey the marshal didn't say we COULDN'T!? 

I already see this to a degree of rule bending / cheating:

Players who put their armband on the back of goggle straps - I’ll happily give them an extra one if they really just want to be identified from the back as well

 

Attempting to not show the arm with an armband is fair enough

 

Even better is to band both arms, (though in the long term that doubles the cost of one of the site overheads, especially when using tape) or to specify arms such as red left, blue right

 

I like faction clothing styles, but it’s difficult to ensure people comply.

At one Falkands based event we defined the upper half of your body as ‘faction wear’.

Brits were DPM, so one guy decided to be Argentinian with a DPM assault vest, he wouldn’t change sides or accept loan gear, so we had to point him out in the morning brief:

”Argentinians - please don’t shoot this guy in the vest, Brits please do”

[snuff]

Seen it but more so in Paintball.

There was a player that did it constantly at Absolute in Maidenhead,we got wise to it after a few sessions and made sure evreyone knew to shoot him if he was mincing around.Do see it ocassionaly but once used it is done for the day normaly.

The only issue that I can see is the impact on newer players,they would be less inclined to shoot a walker not displaying elimination whereas seasoned players would be happy to check. Cheating or not?I've never really thought about it but I suppose it keeps you on your toes.

 

Armbands not on arms..GGRRRR..see them on ankles.That is a different thing all together.

[TheFull9]

Seen this one discussed a few times over the years, actually did it one time about 12 years ago when I first started because I thought 'wow what a genius move nobody's ever done this'.  Felt kinda like cheating, looked a bit like cheating, has no place in the average game with no LARP elements.

 

I've always fancied a US deadrag system myself for this reason, saves a tired arm if you're outdoors with a long walk to spawn.  Comes down to a simple thing though - just put one in to anyone who doesn't have a hand up.  If they whinge it's their own fault.  I mean watch them for a second or two just in case they're switching hands obviously, but after that it is 100% their problem and if they get shirty they're an idiot.

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, snuff said:

 

 

Armbands not on arms..GGRRRR..see them on ankles.That is a different thing all together.

..... Back in the day we would say that ankle bands meant something very different 

[Adolf Hamster]

i've seen it done a few times, whilst it's not technically against the rules it is against the spirit of the game.

 

after all, people are (rightfully) conditioned not to pump more rounds into someone when they're plainly doing the dead walk because that's the literal definition of overshooting.

 

so all you're achieving by pulling these shenanigans is making it so that they'll just shoot everyone just in case.

6 hours ago, Tommikka said:

I like faction clothing styles, but it’s difficult to ensure people comply.

At one Falkands based event we defined the upper half of your body as ‘faction wear’.

Brits were DPM, so one guy decided to be Argentinian with a DPM assault vest, he wouldn’t change sides or accept loan gear, so we had to point him out in the morning brief:

”Argentinians - please don’t shoot this guy in the vest, Brits please do”

 

if he wants to dress up in the enemy teams pattern then let him, and don't listen to him whinging about getting freindly fired as a result.

 

one site i go to will sometimes do it, generally it's dpm/mtp versus everyone else but they only do it when they've got equal enough numbers.

[Druid799]

I say 100% cheating , no one keeps there arm in the air the whole time on the long walk of death back to where ever (gets too bloody heavy !), so you try to walk as none offensively as you can chucking out the odd “dead player !” Every now and again , trying to stick open area’s on route(middle of the field , centre of the road/track) just so hopefully you won’t be seen as an active player . As others have said most definitely NOT in the spirit of the game at all , also as has been said stuff like this leads to escalation and that’ll just destroy the gameday for everyone . One or two do it and before you know it it just turns in to a stagnant shit storm no ones leaving the game area because they know there going to get hosed so they stay where they are not taking there hits AND it all goes to ratshit ! 
if someone is walking in plain view in a none combative state then you should be able to assume there dead and not a threat . So yea anyone who does this is a cheat in my book and I have very little respect for you or your gameplay . 

[Adolf Hamster]

1 minute ago, Druid799 said:

no one keeps there arm in the air the whole time on the long walk of death back to where ever (gets too bloody heavy !), so you try to walk as none offensively as you can chucking out the odd “dead player !” Every now and again , trying to stick open area’s on route(middle of the field , centre of the road/track) just so hopefully you won’t be seen as an active player .

 

as a general rule if my hand isn't up i try not to get too annoyed if i get winged, shit happens after all and i have twitch shot folks walking back without hands up (with appropriate apologies issued of course)

 

dead rags wouldn't be a bad idea, i have a couple but never really used them because nobody seems to understand the concept here.

[snuff]

Agree as above it's your responsibility to indicate death but also remember you may be crossing a "live" field so the odd extra is a thing,no big deal.I usaully just rest my hand on my massive head if it's a long walk and I'm tired.I'll admit it does make me giggle when people complain (scream) about the extra odd shot during a walk.

[Druid799]

Totally agree about the odd ‘ping shot’ (I’ve done it and had it happen to me plenty of times) But where not talking about those , were discussing the risk of dead players getting hosed due to the fact someone thought it would be a jolly jape to act dead then open up on the opposition once past them which then makes them engage ANY dead players they see . 
As I said if I see a player walking across the site not in an aggressive stance and in plain view I’d expect that player to be either a dead player on his way back to where ever or a player who’s taken them selves out of play for some reason and NOT be some cheating punt who’s pretending to be dead to get behind the other team and thus demonstrate there utter lack of sportsmanship . 
I'm a knackered old fart and frequently when I am ‘taken out’ and I’m on the long walk of death once I am out of the ‘firefight’ area I’ll take off my helmet and face mask as many players do (but obviously keeping my glasses on) to just to try and cool down a bit having put WAAAAYYYY too much effort in to the game so I’m now absolutely cooking !🥵 so if This is me and someone hoses the shit out of me because some bellend had pulled the title stunt before hand , the poor chap whose some could say rightfully hosed me is going to get my full anger directed at him when ultimately it’s not his fault but all I know is I’m trudging back in plain view with my rifle slung over my shoulder my helmet and mask off so as far as I’m concerned bar having a giant sign saying so I couldn’t be more obviously ‘out of play’ if I tried and this dickhead just opens up on me ! See where I’m coming from ? 

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

Its a bit cringe (in the same way that banter during marshall briefing is)  and not something I would do, if a mate pulled the same I'd deffo raise my eyebrows. Whilst I obviously wasn't there I'd be minded to think that the group of people did observe him, they just didn't light him up because people absolutely do kick off for suffering the indignity of being shot with a plastic pellet when they have already been shot with a plastic pellet. 

 

Once I was sneaking about in the woods "behind enemy lines" and come across a marshall and a player having a chin wag, make my way past and the guy pops me. "I never said i was dead". I won't provide a physical description of the chap other then to say he was distinctly "low energy" and it is quite simply boiling my piss just thinking about it. This was well over 12 years ago now!!!!

 

I'd love if it sites gave people red sacks wot like you get onions/potatoes in so we could make this unambiguous. 

 

 

[Samurai]

It's an unfair move. But. In real life people do pretend to be dead and surprise the enemy. So much in fact that in the armies (not UK) they are taught to shoot seemingly dead people when they are clearing a building.

[Tackle]

4 minutes ago, Samurai said:

It's an unfair move. But. In real life people pretend to be dead and surprise them. So much in fact that in the armies (not UK) they are taught to shoot seemingly dead people when they are clearing a building.

No, that would be very unsportsmanlike, we were trained to kick em in the balls (or any other fleshy bits) to see if we get an oof or squeal, then we'd shoot them.

Maybe we could adopt this practice in Airsoft for cheaters ? 😭🤣

[Jaylordofwaargh]

As with many here I dont see the point of a bang rule, you double tap or you offer them to walk quietly, but always ready to double tap. Yes, this is heavily influenced by the site I was at often.

As for the sneaky 'deadman' depending on site rules, if you dont look and act dead I will enact rule #1 (make sure their dead....

[Adolf Hamster]

I've always treated bang kills as courtesy only, my logic is if you give a bang kill and they can pull some matrix shenanigans and shoot you before you shoot them then it wasnt a proper bang kill.

[Groot]

Absolutely cheating . No questions. 

Most briefs I have been in clearly talk about doing exactly what he does as cheating. 

What a cunt

[Tackle]

24 minutes ago, Groot said:

Absolutely cheating . No questions. 

Most briefs I have been in clearly talk about doing exactly what he does as cheating. 

What a cunt

Stop beating around the bush mate, say what you mean ?

😜

[Stacius]

An instance of this occurred in a game I had, in the days prior to lockdown. A group of 6 decided to dead mans walk out of a tunnel, that had been getting absolutely peppered, and behind our team. I was actually in a different area at this time so can only recount what I was told, that they were challenged and one of them did raise their hand, so we’re left. 
 When I arrived this same group were in an elevated position, shredding our team with concentrated fire now. Due to the bottleneck of the tunnel mouth we were assaulting.

😂 speaking to the players this group walked past, you would absolutely have called cheating. However, like most in here I believe that if unsure then a few semi auto shots will soon determine. Technically it’s not cheating, in my opinion, just dishonourable. 

[Adolf Hamster]

19 hours ago, Samurai said:

It's an unfair move. But. In real life people do pretend to be dead and surprise the enemy. So much in fact that in the armies (not UK) they are taught to shoot seemingly dead people when they are clearing a building.

 

whilst this is a very valid point, corpses tend not to get pissed off if they get an extra couple of rounds pumped in them by everyone passing by.

[Cr0-Magnon]

4 minutes ago, Stacius said:

Technically it’s not cheating, in my opinion, just dishonourable. 

 

Being dishonourable in a game which relies upon honour is tantamount to cheating.

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

19 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

 

Being dishonourable in a game which relies upon honour is tantamount to cheating.

Agreed, but "tantamount" does the heavy lifting there.

 

Site rules could help clear up issues like this - I think sites need to make "dead rags" mandatory tbh, they're great and would go a long way to solving a whole load of problems with Airsoft respawning. I see far too many people walking in a lazy fashion *into the game*, identical to how they walk back to regen - so, sorry guys but I won't feel too much shame if I tag someone who's not making it clear whether they're dead or not.

[Tommikka]

27 minutes ago, Stacius said:

An instance of this occurred in a game I had, in the days prior to lockdown. A group of 6 decided to dead mans walk out of a tunnel, that had been getting absolutely peppered, and behind our team. I was actually in a different area at this time so can only recount what I was told, that they were challenged and one of them did raise their hand, so we’re left. 
 When I arrived this same group were in an elevated position, shredding our team with concentrated fire now. Due to the bottleneck of the tunnel mouth we were assaulting.

😂 speaking to the players this group walked past, you would absolutely have called cheating. However, like most in here I believe that if unsure then a few semi auto shots will soon determine. Technically it’s not cheating, in my opinion, just dishonourable. 

That’s a bit different to a standard dead mans walk 

With one raising their hand there is a deliberate deception.  If they walked as a group and one raise their hand when challenged then it is pointing to deception rather than non aggression.

As described I would probably call it as cheating 

 

It’s closer to shielding behind a dead player which is on the verge of cheating

[Cr0-Magnon]

16 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Site rules could help clear up issues like this - I think sites need to make "dead rags" mandatory tbh

 

I'm on board with this. You're either in "alive" and can be shot or you've already been shot and are leaving the game/respawning. I've been guilty of not keeping my arm up, especially near the end of the day.

 

I had it once where someone on the opposite team had been shot (I didn't know this) and rather than heading straight back to respawn they walked a few steps and set-up to roll a cigarette on a blue plastic drum. I couldn't really tell what they were doing but saw them standing casually and decided to send a round their way to test it. It connected and they threw their hands up in the air swearing their heads-off. It was hilarious. Same thing goes for people who look around to see who shot them rather than getting out of the way, as well as those who have been shot and walk in front of players on their team pushing forward...they're all fair game!