Sniper rang? Really!

[Mr Dad]

Hi all. Sorry if this is somewhere else. 
 

So sniper, I have a well mb-01 that’s been fully upgraded using Airsoft pro parts. Nothing inside is stock. What sort of range should I be expecting? I’m using 0.4 bb’s and a m170 spring. FPS is 200fps at best and about 0.8j’s. The range I feel I can hit well is about 40 meters. This seems incorrect to me but if someone can shine some light that’ll be great. 
 

Mr dad. 

[Asomodai]

That FPS is far too low, especially considered the barrel length and the whacking great spring you have in there. Do you have an air leak? Cock the bolt , stick your thumb over the end of the inner barrel and fire, does the air stay in the cylinder or does it leak out? 

 

You should be hitting out 100 metres with that setup. (Though that's with an M170 which if working properly will be too hot for any UK field)

 

You should be getting about 80 metres with an M145/M150 which would be UK legal.

[Mr Dad]

That’s what I was thinking. 

So 80 meters is what I should be getting? 
 

Thank you for the reply. Best go and double check it all. If I’m still having issues I’ll be back. 

[Asomodai]

  On 25/10/2021 at 09:00, Mr Dad said:

That’s what I was thinking. 

So 80 meters is what I should be getting? 
 

Thank you for the reply. Best go and double check it all. If I’m still having issues I’ll be back. 

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80 Metres is about typical for a fully upgraded sniper rifle. Unless you are a god tier builder. 

[Steveocee]

In the UK we are quite hindered by a relatively low sniper limit. The general 2.32J marker is good for about up to 80 real metres, much past that is going to be luck and inconsistence. When you get into Europe and they start running 3 and 4 J limits, thst's when your 100+ ranges start coming out.

 

An M170 spring is seriously big though and you "should" be hitting over 600fps with a 0.2g bb. You have either a very poorly fitting piston or a humongous are leak.

[Mr Dad]

  On 25/10/2021 at 09:45, Steveocee said:

In the UK we are quite hindered by a relatively low sniper limit. The general 2.32J marker is good for about up to 80 real metres, much past that is going to be luck and inconsistence. When you get into Europe and they start running 3 and 4 J limits, thst's when your 100+ ranges start coming out.

 

An M170 spring is seriously big though and you "should" be hitting over 600fps with a 0.2g bb. You have either a very poorly fitting piston or a humongous are leak.

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This explains why most YouTube vids I see show massive ranges. 

[Rogerborg]

  On 25/10/2021 at 09:47, Mr Dad said:

This explains why most YouTube vids I see show massive ranges. 

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They show massive ranges because sniper YouTubers tend to be selling a story rather than documenting reality. That's why they have no problem with adding fake hit makers and producing "OMG CHEETAR" clickbait.

 

That said, your Well is definitely underperforming, and I'd agree that the air seal is stuffed.  You don't want to be running it on an M170, it'll be doing your sears no favours.

 

 

[Mr Dad]

  On 25/10/2021 at 10:17, Rogerborg said:

 

 

That said, your Well is definitely underperforming, and I'd agree that the air seal is stuffed.  You don't want to be running it on an M170, it'll be doing your sears no favours.

 

 

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Noob question as I’ve not been doing this long. What is a sears on a sniper? 

Never mind. Just found out 

[Mr Dad]

Never mind. Just found out 

 

ok so took it all apart and checked it all and good air seal all the way to the nozzle. So the only thing it could be is the bucking. I have a maple leaf light green ( can’t for the life of me remember the degrees of it ) so I’ll get a new bucking and try it again in a few days. 

[Rogerborg]

  On 25/10/2021 at 19:05, Mr Dad said:

maple leaf light green ( can’t for the life of me remember the degrees of it )

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Oh!  That's a 50 degree, it would be fine for a GBB pistol, but I'd suggest a 70 or 75 for a sniper rifle.

[Mr Dad]

Hi all. 
 

Thank you for all your help. So here’s what happened, the nozzle was damaged, don’t know how so it wasn’t sitting on the bucking right. So new nozzle, new harder bucking and a re-fit and double check and now I’m getting my 270fps and and 1.2j (ish) also changed to a m140 spring so it’s a lot easier to pull. 
 

 

[Rogerborg]

Thanks for the update.  Was the nozzle brass?  The mind boggles.

 

That's still low though, you should be seeing more like 1.9J out of that spring.

 

I'd have another look at the air seal.

 

 

[Samurai]

If you are using heavy BBs (which you should), use a hardness 50-60 houpup rubber. They are the best for about 330-350 fps which you should aim for. If you use light bbs (you shouldn't), so the fps is around 450, then use a hard rubber. So it is not x fps measured with 0.20g, but the actual fps you measure with the weight you use.

[Impulse]

Yeah, I'd look at the air seal too, as well as making sure the piston is lubed up to make sure it's not suffering too much friction inside the cylinder (allow me to place your mind firmly in the gutter with that imagery). m140 giving 1.2J is horrific! I got 2.4J on a m130 in my old build because my air seal was "too good". Air seal is king as it will generally give you much better consistency and longevity, as you can get away with using lighter springs which put less strain on the sears.

 

If you're going for a 1.1J no MED build, which I advocate because they're really fun, you want to be using a muuuuuuch lighter spring for a muuuuuuuch easier bolt pull; also a 60 degree rubber makes sense for that level of power. I changed out my spring build for a 1.1J build and I'm using a m90, so my sears are going to last a while! However, if you're going for 2.3J like most people, you will want a 70 or 80 degree rubber and use the heaviest BBs possible.

[Rogerborg]

I'm starting to get intrigued by these 1.1J builds.  What BB weight are you using with that?

 

Do I need an AAC T11 Shorty in my life for CQB sniping?

 

[Samurai]

  On 31/10/2021 at 12:49, Impulse said:

you will want a 70 or 80 degree rubber and use the heaviest BBs possible

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Bucking hardness is for the fps measured with the weight used. Not with what the fps would be with 0.20g.

[Rogerborg]

  On 01/11/2021 at 00:17, Samurai said:

Bucking hardness is for the fps measured with the weight used. Not with what the fps would be with 0.20g.

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Hmm, do we have research on that?  I'd assumed that bucking stiffness would be about the amount of puff coming out of the nozzle rather than the velocity imparted to the BB, as the BB is starting from rest as it goes through the hop.  As I see it, softer is always better for imparting sufficient spin with the least amount of pressure, and you only go stiffer if you have to stop the whole bucking deforming and leaking air.

 

That's based on thought experiment, not real experiment though, I'd be fascinated to see some side-by-side testing.

[AirSniper]

  On 25/10/2021 at 06:24, Mr Dad said:

Hi all. Sorry if this is somewhere else. 
 

So sniper, I have a well mb-01 that’s been fully upgraded using Airsoft pro parts. Nothing inside is stock. What sort of range should I be expecting? I’m using 0.4 bb’s and a m170 spring. FPS is 200fps at best and about 0.8j’s. The range I feel I can hit well is about 40 meters. This seems incorrect to me but if someone can shine some light that’ll be great. 
 

Mr dad. 

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You can easily look up ballistics calculators for guns (real steel) and use them to determine the range. I had a great one years ago, no idea what happened to the site but it had a graphing suit with it that showed the trajectory and the distance you should get with the parameters you used, things like BB Pellet weight, Joules, inclination, and out pops the range you are getting.
If you are ready for it and can stomach a challenge, here you go : https://shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php

and ... https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmdist-5.1.cgi

[Samurai]

  On 02/11/2021 at 00:29, AirSniper said:

ballistics calculators

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Airsoft BBs have backspin that greatly affect the trajectory.

Most of them at least. There's an indoor sniping thing in Japan where they have very precisely built rifles with no hopup to shoot coin sized targets in close, 10-20m ranges. No hopup because that makes them less accurate.

 

  On 01/11/2021 at 09:18, Rogerborg said:

Hmm, do we have research on that?

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Only my empirical evidence, but I will try to look it up, because I've read it somewhere first. And it changed my life.

[Rogerborg]

  On 02/11/2021 at 11:15, Samurai said:

Only my empirical evidence, but I will try to look it up, because I've read it somewhere first. And it changed my life.

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I'm minded to believe it, because I threw a 50 degree Maple Leaf into a 1.8J+ DMR and it was just fine (I later found a 60 degree and switched to that, with no noticeable difference, I just wanted to free up the 50 for an 1.1J AEG).  I suspect 70+ buckings are more about willy waggling over your real ultimate power in areas where they run snipers at 3J+.

[AirSniper]

  On 02/11/2021 at 11:15, Samurai said:

Airsoft BBs have backspin that greatly affect the trajectory.

Most of them at least. There's an indoor sniping thing in Japan where they have very precisely built rifles with no hopup to shoot coin sized targets in close, 10-20m ranges. No hopup because that makes them less accurate.

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We are not talking implicitly about Trajectory, its the fact that the fundamental laws of thermodynamics is being challenged here.

Ballistics is a field like any known science in mathematics that describes our world, based on empiric evidence and recorded data.

The OP is niggling over the difference between 200 fps and 207 fps which if you use the Joules calculator, shows that its nearly there at max power. As for the range, that is where you resort to ballistics calculators that can work that out based on what you put in, things like elevation, direction of shooting if a really tech site as earth spin still on Airsoft levels affect the BB, you see it in action, its called gravity.

There are some fundamentals in our world that you can not get around or break the rules of, it is impossible, like the race to max out the joules... the BB only carries the energy that was imparted on it (simple world view for this demo) and can not gain any energy but lose it over time and that equates to distance.

Seriously, give the Ballistics calcs a go and it may help land you in the ball park area you are aiming for or at the least, tell you if you are under or over powered. Incidentally, the calcs you use for this in every airsoft game, are used in real steel.

So they scale with the size and powers involve, thermodynamics baby...

When I did it in physics at uni in my foundation year, its a heavy subject and one that can make your head go pop if you're not paying attention. The take away I got from it was simply that rule, you can not extract more energy from something that has energy to give up. So you can't make a 0.4g BB go faster on a set joules output, you will see a big difference with different BB weights as its like airgun shooting or live rounds, same rules, divergent weight projectiles and again, ballistics rules the day. 

So any talk on accuracy deviations from hop ups, really are not an issue here, its all about the joules, BB weights and how you shoot, you can then consider other factors when you determine that you are shoot correctly.

You wouldn't believe the numbers of players that hold pistols gangsta thuglife style, apply pitch to rifles and so on, all these moves affect things like accuracy and range. Unless you know how to hold a rifle, cheek it properly and get to know your RIF without sights, I play without using sites and I can hit spinner targets and people with accuracy, if you haven't seen my airgun target shooting... gives you an idea on how you can be accurate and hone your skill to use in game play.

Suggestion to Mr Dad is to study up on ballistics theory and watch a few real steel shooters, there is a lady shooter, Kirsten Weiss, look her up, an excellent shot and skilled lady.   She talks about proper gun use, it may help you iron out any possible wrinkles you are inadvertently introducing. I have been there myself, so it pays to listen to some other advice on improving shooting skills, I only became aware of something I was doing that shouldn't have been doing as it did affect my shooting and that is too many people do put too much pitch in their hold on a rifle.

In airsoft, I see plenty of people set up and "Chinning" their stocks, why? That really affect accuracy... cheek it properly and your accuracy goes up exponentially.

Not trying to preach here but rather help in drawing attention to things that many players dismiss, don't know if its myth or folk law but I hear stuff that makes me chuckle. As for the hop ups and RIF's in general, I am on the back foot here in terms of hop ups and things like that, what I am not on the back foot with is ballistics and shooting in general.

Here she is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YnQVS_HdrI

[AirSniper]

Here is what I am trying to make clear, the relationship of Joules to Velocity from BB weight.

You want more velocity then you have no option but to lower your BB weight.

If you swap out a spring, then your taking the RIF above its rated Joules output for no good reason other than to break it. Things are made to a stress point, even in airguns, like my sons HW57 that had a failure in the piston because of dieseling detonation on firing took the spring past its tolerance for compression and no longer produces the 11.9 ftlbs but only 8ft lbs.

 

Same rules apply in airguns, you want a slower speed and more joule delivery, go for heavier grain weights.

This posted image is the simplest way I could demonstrate what I am trying to put in to words.

It will also help those I hear uttering that "I don't know owt about this joules business..." and why it is important.

[Samurai]

But ballistic calculators don't incorporate backspin, because real steel bullets don't do that. They can not give you anything remotely accurate results for airsoft. It affects range and trajectory for BBs more than anything else.

This is ballistic:

https://gfycat.com/calmmammothatlanticridleyturtle

This is with backspin (Magnus effect)

https://gfycat.com/greatvillainouslabradorretriever

 

You are correct about weights, etc, but that's not the whole picture.

[EDcase]

Airsoft BBs use the magnus effect to fly straight so the backspin influences the distance a BB can fly.

Unlike a real bullet, the higher speed of an airsoft fired BB does not necessarily equal longer range.

 

The speed and weight must be perfectly matched to its backspin.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by EDcase

[Rogerborg]

  On 03/11/2021 at 22:56, EDcase said:

Unlike a real bullet, the higher speed of an airsoft fired BB does not necessarily equal longer range.

 

The speed and weight must be perfectly matched to its backspin.

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These statement are both true, but I would stress that if you've got the backspin spot on, then more speed = more range.

 

I'd even agree that at typical woodland engagement distances, getting the perfect angular velocity is more important than linear velocity (as long as you're getting somewhere close to 1J).

 

And that if your hop unit and rubber can't impart perfect hop on a 1.1J BB, but can on a 0.8J BB, both with the same mass, that the 0.8J is likely to have a longer effective range.

 

Just please let's be very careful to not make any sort of suggestion that that for 2 BBs from the same bottle, both with the same mass, and both with perfect backspin imparted, that the one with 0.8J of linear kinetic energy at the muzzle can or will ever travel as far as the one with 1.1J.