Lighter weight and compact rifle

[RostokMcSpoons]

So I spent my last event running around with a full size steel bodied M16. (Actually a Classic Army M15A3 with a full stock)
All good fun, and the hugely long barrel meant that even with a non-functioning hop-up (now being fixed) I could still get decent range, but by Gawd I was knackered at the end of the day.

Scratch that, I was knackered by lunchtime.  And that meant I was dawdling on my trips between spawn and the front line, and therefore not helping the team as much as I should
 

The upshot is two things:

 

1) It quashed my desire to buy a G&G L85A2 with a SUSAT sight.  That thing would weigh a ton! 
 (It's a shame, I've always had a personal interest in the SA80 since I was a kid, so one day I really will have to get one, regardless of the weight)
 

2) It rekindled my interest in buying a short rifle, as the full length gun was very unwieldy at times

 

Now I do also own a TM AK47S, which I haven't been able to use in anger in my new spate of airsofting... it had been upgraded and exceeds the 350fps limit.  My ham-fisted attempt to replace the spring ended in an explosive disassembly of the trigger and gearbox, so it's with the site tech to put back together!  That will fit the bill for 'short and light', but it is a bit creaky around the front hand guard.   

But of course I couldn't resist looking at buying something new...
 

I've been looking around at what polymer-bodied guns I could get, and as a differentiator from the AK, in a really short-bodied format.

I've got 4 M4 hi-cap mags, and 2 AK hi-caps.  I might want to go mid-cap in the future, but for the moment going with an M4 platform makes sense.
I've got a cheapo NimH battery charger, and two 1600/1700 mAh stick batteries with t-connectors
 

What do you guys 'n' gals think of these options?

 

SPECNA ARMS	CORE X-ASR PDW	SA-C21	PATROLBASE	£130		https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/specna-arms-sa-c21-pdw-core-tm-x-asr-tm?pv=16240
G&G	FHK M4 FIREHAWK		DEFCON	£160		https://www.defconairsoft.co.uk/product/gg-firehawk-fhk-m4-stubby-combat-machine/
G&G	RAIDER 2.0	CM16	FAT BOBS	£173		https://www.fatbobs.co.uk/g-g-cm16-raider-2-0.html
ARES AMOEBA	STUBBY BADGER	AM-015	ALPHA RAPTORS	£180		https://alpharaptors.co.uk/product/ares-amoeba-am-015-stubby-badger-cqb-efcs/
G&G	FFR A2	CM16	ACTION HOBBIES	£180		https://www.actionhobbies.co.uk/products/gg-combat-machine-aeg-cm16-ffr-a2-with-etu-airsoft-gun-black/
SAIGO DEFENSE	RONIN		SPECIAL OPS	£180	inc battery, charger	https://www.iwholesales.co.uk/airsoft-guns/electric-gun/211962-saigo-defense-ronin-aeg-with-lipo-bat-charger-black
SPECNA ARMS	EDGE ROCK RIVER	SA-E05	PATROLBASE	£185		https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/specna-arms-rock-river-arms-sa-e05-edge-carbine?pv=9418
ARES AMOEBA	HONEY BADGER	AM-014	PATROLBASE	£195		https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/ares-amoeba-am-014-honey-badger-m4-compact-rail?pv=999
ARES AMOEBA	MUTANT	AM-M-003	SPECIAL OPS	£235		https://www.iwholesales.co.uk/airsoft-guns/electric-gun/212364-amoeba-by-ares-mutant-amm9-efcs-aeg-tan-am-m-003-de
TOKYO MARUI	AUG HC		FIRE SUPPORT	£280		https://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/tokyo-marui-high-cycle-steyr-aug-airsoft-gun-aeg-black

(The iwholesales site doesn't have prices on the web pages, but they're where my local site can source me kit)

The TM Aug HC is a bit of a price outlier, isn't compatible with my mags, but I just think it's cool, and I really like the high RoF 

 

I guess the first question is:  Should I be avoiding any of those like the plague?

And the second is: are any of these guns so short-barrelled that they'll be useless in a woodland environment?  What effect does the barrel length have in reality?
 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by RostokMcSpoons
Typo, batteries

[AK47frizzle]

I have the raider 2.0 and it is really light at just under 2kg without a mag. The firehawk should be good too if you want shorter. I personally can't advocate for augs since I hate the balance of bullpups (I prefer pulling the weight up from the front). Ares and Specna are OK, but G&G have by far the best reputation of them all for low cost and good performance.

[RostokMcSpoons]

1 hour ago, AK47frizzle said:

I have the raider 2.0 and it is really light at just under 2kg without a mag. The firehawk should be good too if you want shorter. I personally can't advocate for augs since I hate the balance of bullpups (I prefer pulling the weight up from the front). Ares and Specna are OK, but G&G have by far the best reputation of them all for low cost and good performance.

Hi. I get what you say about the bullpup, I've only handled a real-steel L85 many years ago, and an old TM Aug A1 and a ICS L85 recently, but briefly.  The plastic / polymer construction does help a little with the balance I think, but yeah I probably needs some hands-on time to really gauge whether it's good for me

 

The Raider was the first gun I put on my list, as everyone seems to think they're solid... if they're good enough for rentals they can take a lickin' and keep on tickin' I guess   
Is there anything 'missing' or that needs upgrading on the 2.0, that you've found?  Patrolbase has them at ~320fps which I guess is fine if the hopup / bucking is ok... are they?
How's the RoF?

[BigStew]

with the metal upper AUGs are quite heavy. have you thought about a sub machine gun? MP5, UMP or one of the pistol calibre carbines from G&G? I  just ordered  the special edition ARP9 after having a go on a mates one. even with a drum mag its light. on the range i was getting accurate hits at 50m could walk the shot at 60m and max range was about 67ish 

Edited October 15, 2021 by BigStew

[EDcase]

I don't see any you should avoid.

I'm happy with my SpecnaArmsEdge but some people have reported problems with them.

I tend to think G&G are expensive for what you get but they are highly regarded by many.

Not heard of Saigo Defense but you can't buy from iwholesales anyway (Unless you managed to set up an account with them)

Best to get some hands-on before considering the Para-Aug.  Its quite back heavy and takes some getting used to.

Have a look at the JG range as they make good low cost polymer guns that shoot quite well.

CYMA also make decent budget (lighter) guns

 

As BigStew mentioned, consider an MP5 or similar sub-machinegun.  Shorter barrels in airsoft do not determine max range as they do in real weapons.

There is some correlation between length and range but there are many factors that affect the range apart from barrel length.

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by EDcase

[Tackle]

@RostokMcSpoons

Worth considering.? 

[Druid799]

Just to Chuck another name in the ring check out the Double Eagle range with the falcon mosfet gearboxes . I recently bought one as an ‘it’s the end of the day I’m totally bollox’ed I need a lightweight gun !’ gun and it turned out to be a fecking awesome piece of kit ! I was totally blown away by the performance for the price I paid for it . Everyone I’ve met who has one have only confirmed how good they are and haven’t heard anything bad about them as of yet . 

[Fatboy40]

No love for anything from Double Eagle then? 😢 (polymer receivers, some with quite short barrels, and a very good MOSFET)

 

Regarding the Firehawk though they are very short and light, however the mechanical trigger really let's them down, they're painfully slow to get off their first shot (I'm getting my son a new rifle for Christmas, his Firehawk will then become a back-up, and will be my first attempt to fit either a GATE Aster or Titan as with an optical trigger it will be such a good CQB gun).

[RostokMcSpoons]

Hey thanks for all the replies, good stuff, cheers

Well I've always had a soft spot for the looks of the MP5 but I think I'm sticking to the AR platform to re-use my mags, unless I'm very tempted by some special feature, like the quirkiness of the Aug (which I use a lot in Battlefield 4 when I'm gaming.  I'm also a big in-game fan of the F2000 which *does* use M4 mags, so maybe I should go there...?  I'd take the RIS version so I can stick my real-steel Kobra on top)

 

The scorpion doesn't really float my boat, if I was to go for a PDW it would have to be something like the MP7.

I've watched and re-watched a few videos of the Amoebas and Firehawk, and on-balance I was thinking the Firehawk.  It's a little cheaper, and has the famed G&G CM reliability going for it.  The comments on the slow trigger give me pause, but I've not played any true CQB yet, so maybe that's not vital

 

Double Eagle is not a manufacturer I know anything about, except they often pop up very early on in an 'ascending price' sort!  I'll go take a look!
Edit: Ah, perhaps 'Golden Eagle' is what I've seen.   Further investigation required...

Edited October 15, 2021 by RostokMcSpoons

[Tackle]

31 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Hey thanks for all the replies, good stuff, cheers

Well I've always had a soft spot for the looks of the MP5 but I think I'm sticking to the AR platform to re-use my mags, unless I'm very tempted by some special feature, like the quirkiness of the Aug (which I use a lot in Battlefield 4 when I'm gaming.  I'm also a big in-game fan of the F2000 which *does* use M4 mags, so maybe I should go there...?  I'd take the RIS version so I can stick my real-steel Kobra on top)

 

The scorpion doesn't really float my boat, if I was to go for a PDW it would have to be something like the MP7.

I've watched and re-watched a few videos of the Amoebas and Firehawk, and on-balance I was thinking the Firehawk.  It's a little cheaper, and has the famed G&G CM reliability going for it.  The comments on the slow trigger give me pause, but I've not played any true CQB yet, so maybe that's not vital

 

Double Eagle is not a manufacturer I know anything about, except they often pop up very early on in an 'ascending price' sort!  I'll go take a look!
Edit: Ah, perhaps 'Golden Eagle' is what I've seen.   Further investigation required...

If you go for an Aug, be aware of the finicky two stage trigger, not everyone gets on with it, 

BUT all is not lost, I think one manufacturer has made one with a traditional fire selector, can't remember who though?, @Druid799 might have one(he's got everything else 😜), failing that @Iceniis our resident Aug expert, he'll know 👍

[Druid799]

Double eagle has been around for years ,they where one of the first Chinese cloners they where famous(or more like infamous) for el cheapo AEGs and spring shotguns(which surprisingly where very good) the disappeared a few yrs ago but recently re-emerged with this new range of very good quality polymer bodied fully programmable guns .

 

Tackle is correct , I’ve got a snow wolf AUG and it has a ‘proper’ trigger and there is a mod you can do that allows a traditional trigger as apposed to the two stage one on all the others . 

[BigStew]

50 minutes ago, Tackle said:

If you go for an Aug, be aware of the finicky two stage trigger, not everyone gets on with it, 

BUT all is not lost, I think one manufacturer has made one with a traditional fire selector, can't remember who though?, @Druid799 might have one(he's got everything else 😜), failing that @Iceniis our resident Aug expert, he'll know 👍

the TMs have a semi and auto select built into the safety now 

1 hour ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Hey thanks for all the replies, good stuff, cheers

Well I've always had a soft spot for the looks of the MP5 but I think I'm sticking to the AR platform to re-use my mags, unless I'm very tempted by some special feature, like the quirkiness of the Aug (which I use a lot in Battlefield 4 when I'm gaming.  I'm also a big in-game fan of the F2000 which *does* use M4 mags, so maybe I should go there...?  I'd take the RIS version so I can stick my real-steel Kobra on top)

 

The scorpion doesn't really float my boat, if I was to go for a PDW it would have to be something like the MP7.

I've watched and re-watched a few videos of the Amoebas and Firehawk, and on-balance I was thinking the Firehawk.  It's a little cheaper, and has the famed G&G CM reliability going for it.  The comments on the slow trigger give me pause, but I've not played any true CQB yet, so maybe that's not vital

 

Double Eagle is not a manufacturer I know anything about, except they often pop up very early on in an 'ascending price' sort!  I'll go take a look!
Edit: Ah, perhaps 'Golden Eagle' is what I've seen.   Further investigation required...

just to add I under stand the appeal of sticking to the same platform for mag compatibility but this is airsoft there is no guarantee that your current mags will feed with any of the guns you choose.

[RostokMcSpoons]

Yeah good point about the mags but from what I've seen the Ares and G&G seem to be on the less finicky side of that equation.

 

I think the TM high cycle has a safe/single/auto selector, but good to hear that the cheap SnowWolf do the same.  It's the high RoF that really sells the TM Aug though

 

I've not found a good dealer for the Double Eagle yet, just ones selling the very cheapest electric guns and spring shotguns in two Tone.  I'll keep looking!

 

 

[Rogerborg]

20 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

the hugely long barrel meant that even with a non-functioning hop-up (now being fixed) I could still get decent range

 

Nobody?  Really?  Nobody?

 

OK, I'll get it, although it gives me little pleasure.

 

 

And on topic.

 

 

 

[Badgerlicious]

I have the TM AUG HC. I love it, very much. As said, the TM has a midpoint on the safety that allows for semi-auto fire, but it is still a pretty heavy and squishy trigger 'cause it's a bullpup. A few things to note on mine. 1) the safety push lever thing is fairly sharp on the corners, I filed mine down. 2) After two years of running it, the semi-auto has stopped working. I haven't even touched the gearbox in all this time though, I've been waiting on a second reliable gun before I crack the AUG open. Full auto works fine though. 3) after two years, even the TM is getting a wobbly bottom rail and a bit creaky. 4) Get a second ejection port cover because the mock bolt is a total ass to put back in 

 

But, you'll get 40m effective range (at like 0.7j on 0.28s) and an absolute hellfire of bbs.

 

If we're throwing out suggestions, the arp556 is a pretty nice gun. A friend has one, and it sits right on the full auto power limits with 0.28s, even with that tiny barrel. Has decent accuracy, range and RoF too. Plus it takes regular m4 mags. The metal bodied one is already pretty light, and now there's the v2 polymer version that's about the top of your price range. Though it's a bit springy when you're shooting it for some reason.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Badgerlicious
I forget the things

[RostokMcSpoons]

8 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Nobody?  Really?  Nobody?

 

OK, I'll get it, although it give me little pleasure.

 

 

Hahaha 😋

 

Well I'm basing that on one day's play where I've hit everyone I've aimed at with it.  So the gun was shooting as far as I can identify targets in the environment. 

The real range of the gun might very well be drastically reduced, but it was good enough! 

(I didn't know the hop was ineffective until I took it to the tech at the end of the day)

 

I've watched a few videos of double eagle guns and I'm sold.  Still haven't found anyone that sells their best guns though, I'll have to methodically work through each of the popular retailers.

Shame that TaiwanGun aren't shipping to the UK at the moment

 

Is that binary trigger a little bit of a cheat for semi auto games though?

 

Edit..

Yeah I can't find any stock of double eagle.  What a 'mare, the m904e looked a great option.  It's only £95 at TWG too, though I don't know what the shipping and taxes would add to that.

 

So yeah, the Aug still tempts me.  I'll go look at the ARP556 as I happened across a video of one of those last night...

 

Blimey, I only just caught up with looking at the Cyma .. £80 for a tidy looking gun?  That's amazing value, to make up for a lack of cool features

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by RostokMcSpoons
More stuff

[shadowfacex]

21 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

So I spent my last event running around with a full size steel bodied M16. (Actually a Classic Army M15A3 with a full stock)
All good fun, and the hugely long barrel meant that even with a non-functioning hop-up (now being fixed) I could still get decent range, but by Gawd I was knackered at the end of the day.

 

Scratch that, I was knackered by lunchtime.  And that meant I was dawdling on my trips between spawn and the front line, and therefore not helping the team as much as I should

 

Am I the only idiot who actually thought his plate carrier was too light, and so went out and bought 2 × 2.5kg plates to weigh it down for the next skirmish? 😅

[Tackle]

20 minutes ago, shadowfacex said:

 

Am I the only idiot who actually thought his plate carrier was too light, and so went out and bought 2 × 2.5kg plates to weigh it down for the next skirmish? 😅

Probably 🤣

[Iceni]

18 hours ago, Tackle said:

If you go for an Aug, be aware of the finicky two stage trigger, not everyone gets on with it

You can modify any AUG to have the semi only position, It's done with the removal of the plastic on the safe/selector bar. I think CA and TM come with it done as standard, but I'm a bit out of the loop now as I've not been keeping track over Covid.

As for the TM HC, It's a nice gun, But all of the bonuses are in the gearbox. Absolutely nothing is externally different on them from a JG. A Bog standard JG A1/A2 with a couple of upgrades (Gears 13:1, Motor HT, Shimming,  New hop rubber) can do what the TM does for half the price. The triggers can be greased and the springs stretched to make the trigger slightly better but it's a big linkage to move so it's never going to be amazing.

Don't bother with the A3/A4 variants the front RIS is really heavy and makes them a lot harder to use all day.
 

[Rogerborg]

6 hours ago, shadowfacex said:

Am I the only idiot who actually thought his plate carrier was too light, and so went out and bought 2 × 2.5kg plates to weigh it down for the next skirmish? 😅

 

No, there are loads of idiots like that.

 

LARP as you like, it's all good.  I have had issues with people in plate carriers genuinely not feeling hits though, I wouldn't encourage them.

[Iceni]

15 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

So yeah, the Aug still tempts me.

If you are serious about an AUG, It's worth pointing out a few of the flaws, Especially if you have been using an M4 platform.

BB's get into the body on mag changes. With a bit of practice on mag changes you can reduce this. There are options to shim the magwell but it's not needed if you are confident splitting the body. You split invert the body and they just shake out.

The hop unit is good, but it's also built in a different way to an M4 hop. It has to move on the screws that hold the hop to the outer. It's this sprung loaded action that help lock the upper to the lower. I cut my hop rubbers down a little and put the brass ring before the C-clip, as the brass ring in the standard position at the front of the hop unit can reduce the travel of the inner barrel/hop assembly.

Some parts are impossible to buy. Magwell feed nipples, the gearbox trigger mechanism, Motor cage, and the trigger linkage. Be extra careful if you take any of those parts off. The rest of the gearbox is standard V3 bar the air nozzle.

Some inner barrels are too thick. The inner barrel must move in the outer barrel. If you find your after market ones don't slide in without friction and stop the sprung loaded action working then you can't use it.

AUG's are noisy. Your head and ear are over the gearbox and the body of the gun acts like a resonator. You can pack the body with foam to significantly reduce this.

Mags are generally pretty cheap, I've never had a mag that didn't feed correctly even the cheapo battle axe ones. The MAG branded 170rnd mid caps are the best magazine, Good capacity, a bit more expensive but worth it.

Whilst the battery compartment is small you can fit a 7.4v 2200mAh in there (you sometimes have to doctor the dividing plate to get them to fit). I use these in mine.

https://www.componentshop.co.uk/7-4v-2200mah-35c-continuous-discharge-lipo-battery.html?___SID=U

A perfectly built AUG will still have significant wobble between the upper and lower in comparison to an M4.

You can fit a Mosfet in the gun on the inside of the dividing plate if you are clever with wire management.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Iceni

[EDcase]

Golden Eagle is JG Works

I suspect Double Eagle are related but haven't found anything concrete on that.

[RostokMcSpoons]

Iceni, you are surely an Aug guru, thanks for taking the time to write that.  

 

Now the problem is I am not an expert with the internals of any gun.  I opened up my AK to downgrade the spring, and ended up losing a bushing.  When I took it apart again to see if it was inside the gearbox, the trigger and gears fell apart to the point where I gave up and handed it over to the site tech.

 

So if this is a gun that needs tender loving care, maybe it is not for me.  Not yet at least!

3 minutes ago, EDcase said:

Golden Eagle is JG Works

I suspect Double Eagle are related but haven't found anything concrete on that.

I just found Patrolbase have double eagles in stock, they're a bit pricey compared to the twgun prices (who isn't), I'm sorely tempted!

[Iceni]

37 minutes ago, EDcase said:

Double Eagle are related but haven't found anything concrete on that

 I'm Sure Negative airsoft mentioned the brand in that video of branding he did a few months ago. 1:10:04
 

Aug's typically  don't need a lot of attention, but they need the right attention. It's easy to make a good one bad by not understanding how the hop/body relationship works. Gearbox wise it's 2 screws and out very easy. You can  put in a mosfet without needing to open the gearbox, and I think most JG's now come with quick change springs. I can have a gearbox out faster than on any other platform as there is no motor, selector, or pistol grip to remove. Typical of any AEG if it shoots well enough leave it alone until it breaks.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Iceni

[Keldon]

You also have the Ares m45-x which has changeable barrel lengths so you can go long or short. 

 

M45 user review on this site

Edited October 17, 2021 by Keldon