Setting up a CQB Site, What Should I Be Thinking About?

[Graham Ranson]

19 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

[Shudders]

 

I guess that raises the issue of marshalling.  If you're intending to run days like that, you'll want a head marshal who is prepared to turn up at every game day and be the biggest voice on site. They should set a fun, friendly tone at the brief, but be uncompromising in the game zone, ready to punt anyone back to the safe zone or off-site, up to and including halting games or pulling the plug on the whole day if it turns into a aggro fuelled chavvy shit-show.

 

Finding someone who's approachable and easy going and doesn't have an ego problem, but is also prepared to run towards an escalating tantrum or face down a toxic player and tell them to sling their hook, that's a tricky task.  Harder still to find someone who will actually do it all day without drifting off into chatting or checking their phone.

 

I've seen very few marshals who can tick all those boxes

Yea it would need to be marshalled properly, I guess I was thinking much like sten party might do go-karting, laser tag, a room escape, anything like that, they could also do a few hours of airsofting.

Not easy to find someone no, but certainly can be done. Just need to make sure I pay them properly and get the right person.

18 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Some random comments:

 

 

As well as potential charity status, look into any local business intiatives such as those under BID schemes etc with partnerships between councils and local business organisations etc

These may have subsidies or waivers on rent & rates for the first year etc

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_improvement_district

 

Moveable ‘walls’ are always a good idea. A fairly basic is Heras fencing which can be moved with a covering, a better solution is a framework with either movable wall panels (quite a bit of work), fixed wall panels with a door in every room but hangable panels that block doors, or a framework with panels forming long wide corridors and a mix of wall panels that can be relocated with some effort and doors/panels that can be moved between games

 

Ensure that game areas are not designed with either attack or defend but a combination of attack & defend -  it must be possible for one person to have a last stand, but also that one person doesn’t end up dominating a whole game

 

Stags/companies/parties:

For rental groups they mostly don’t care if they are sound paintball/.50” paintball/airsoft/laser/nerf.

They are after a fun day out, but they might be looking for a particular one

 

Utilities:

Particularly when indoors AEG users will be interested in charging facilities - this is an extra cost to your bill but it’s a value added feature. 
 

Neighbours:

Keep everyone happy, ensure they are aware of the activities - banging and shooting noises, and lots of people driving around & parking. (Plus potential smokers/vapers stood around)

 

Catering:

Vending machines are beaten by having a caterer, but there is a balance between ensuring it’s worth their while to turn up.

If you provide catering then you have to comply with all food prep & storage, if you have a caterer then you only provide a suitable area (clean etc)

 

 

 

Experience training days:

You dont need a true super special ex SAS instructor.  You need someone credible who can give an ‘experience’ suitable for the people.

There are many ex forces businesses that will come down and run custom sessions.

Once established or depending on who your staff are then this can be done in house.  
Ive attended events with experience sessions by training companies, by trade staff, by teams and we have run them with our ex military’s members (one is a former instructor) …. and also without our ex military.  We’ve done some ‘real tactics’ but aimed at the context of ‘playing games’ - death is not a consequence, so you can change tactics when the worst case scenario is that you have to respawn 

 

 

Rental equipment:

You need a minimal number to cover the largest party you will have at one time plus spares for failures.

 

Diversify:

Your goal may be airsoft, but the more choices you have the better chance of customers:

Airsoft - easy to sweep up

 

Low impact .50” paintball  (springer pump action)

Attracts kids birthday parties.  Fairly easy to sweep up, and low level of cleaning - power wash or gardening style backpack pump sprayer 

 

Full .50” paintball 

True paintball in the lower .50” calibre

You will need a compressed air system (greater expense) but it’s available for HPA airsofters

This will need more cleaning than the .50” springers

 

 

Note that indoors you have the added risk of slips and falls on a hard surface.  Paintball residue can be easily washed away with pressure washers etc as long as you don’t have excessive firing going on. 
But think about how slippery the floor may be.  We’ve gone for sawdust on some indoor games (after testing it for flammability with pyro)

Sawdust adds some slipability by itself, but you should have rules against running to make people step properly 

 

…. Which brings to another safety issue of CQB - oversight 

 

Rooms are very hard to Marshall, both for rules & safety 
If you have an overhead platform you can mix ground level and above level - someone to see what’s going on and someone to deal with the emergency 

 

 

All VERY good points, thank you for all of this.

BID is a good idea yea, will be fielding some questions to my accountants soon ( business advise as well ) and see what things they can think of in this direction.

12 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

Few things I can think of after way to many yrs playing ;

Movable obstacles or easily changeable layout , stops games stagnating due to ‘local knowledge’ of the site .

pro active marshals AND they must be above reproach themselves , nothing will destroy a sites reputation quicker than crooked marshals that favour the regulars , if the regulars are good honest players then yes the marshals should listen to them even ask there opinion/advice on what ever but do not favour them over others .

Following on from this set rules that are stuck too , with no bending or flexing of them .

I’ve always liked the idea if possible of above ground OP for the marshals went to a site once that was a big wharehouse space that had an ‘observation’ tower in the very centre that the head marshal would use to keep an eye on things .

Heres one that’ll cause some discord , rates of fire . If you’ve got a ‘first time haven’t a clue what there doing’ rental with a bog standard G&G combat machine being stalked by an experienced speedsofter who has a gun set to a ridiculous rate of fire with a flappy trigger set so delicate the air from the wings of a bumblebee will set it off and it’s supposedly a single shot game but they pump half a dozen ’single’ shots in the blink of an eye in to them they rapidly give up , I’ve seen it happen . Now I known it’s a small majority that do it but it happens . No ones says you can’t be fast on the trigger but reasonable rates of fire shouldn’t be a problem for anyone to manage .

Battery charging facilities .

consumables for sale .

Free tea/coffee or water .

plenty of seating and table space .

good time keeping , if you say game starts in 10min then it starts in 10mins not 12/13/14min/etc , your not ready ? Tuff your playing catch up NOT everyone else waiting for you .

Good visible team markings .

Keep the mood and atmosphere positive and fun as much as you can , when people are happy there less likely to break the rules .

But the MOST important thing you can do is K.I.S.S. !😉

Good lunch and I really hope it works out for you .👍

Good marshalls and specific rules, that are adhered to, is a big one yea. 

Any thoughts on the rule of "no hicaps"?
 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Graham Ranson said:

Yea it would need to be marshalled properly, I guess I was thinking much like sten party might do go-karting, laser tag, a room escape, anything like that, they could also do a few hours of airsofting.

 

The difference being that adrenaline ouchies can result in some folk losing the rag.  Particularly so if it's a casual group who don't really know what to expect, or particularly want to get shot, then get lit up by Spammy McChav.

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Ranson said:

Any thoughts on the rule of "no hicaps"?

 

Can't see why. You'll be handing out hi-caps with the rentals anyway, unless you want to go for some sort of 'premium package' with a vest and a stack of mid-caps and a speedloader.  On that, you mentioned MP5s which are a solid enough choice but are typically limited in magazine capacity.  If you do want to go that way, these high caps work well (but add cost, and are of course out of stock).

 

Limit the site to semi auto and mags won't be an issue.

[Madhouse]

Going on from the Rate of Fire comments, quite a lot of sites have a 'no full auto' rule, also with it being CQB it'd be worth thinking about FPS limits and a chrono policy too.

 

Liking the idea of easily moveable walls to keep it fresh as well as upping the realism with a few extra props etc.

 

Also, go and have a chat with the competition, they may or may not be receptive but if you're all within a sensible distance of each other then you'll all be after the same players and their cash. It's all business at the end of the day and a bit of competition is healthy, but it's definitely worth making it 'friendly' as you never know who you'll need a favour from in the future. May be worth looking at when their midweek evening sessions are (if they have one) and doing yours on a different day?

 

Having a shop selling incidentals and stuff that people have a tendency to forget to pack will provide a nice bit of additional income, you could come to an agreement with a local store or do your own thing. Selling snacks and drinks is always going to be popular and you'll get brownie points from the local business community if you can get local lunch van to pop by - just make sure you agree times and also that the session is over in good time for everyone to get their kit stowed and be ready when the van arrives.

I've always wondered about the on-site store carrying a demo fleet and doing RIF rentals in a try-before-you-buy capacity (sort of), eg rent a RIF for £20 for the day and if you buy one you get the money back. No idea if that'd actually work.

 

Carry enough spares to ensure you can keep your rentals happy, no-one wants a game day ending with a broken gun. Also rentals are future regulars, you need to make sure they have a good day as you've the least goodwill built up with them, flip-side of that is don't forget the regulars as they are a reliable income stream - it doesn't take much to keep people happy.

 

If you've a local technician doing gun servicing on site for your rentals then why not re-sell that service on? or maybe set up as a range once in a while for people to come and test that new spring to ensure they're not running hot or set up their new sights or hop-up in advance of a game day.

 

Final point, make sure the parking's covered. You'll lose customers and sour relationships with your neighbours in no time if parking's a hassle.

 

 

[Graham Ranson]

37 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

The difference being that adrenaline ouchies can result in some folk losing the rag.  Particularly so if it's a casual group who don't really know what to expect, or particularly want to get shot, then get lit up by Spammy McChav.

I was thinking that the group would be all rentals but they would at least all know each other - rather than just a Rental only day where strangers turn up - so it might make it a bit better, but then yea it might make it worse if they all know each other and take things too far.
 

37 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

Can't see why. You'll be handing out hi-caps with the rentals anyway, unless you want to go for some sort of 'premium package' with a vest and a stack of mid-caps and a speedloader.  On that, you mentioned MP5s which are a solid enough choice but are typically limited in magazine capacity.  If you do want to go that way, these high caps work well (but add cost, and are of course out of stock).

 

Limit the site to semi auto and mags won't be an issue.

Just trying to limit the potential for anyone being tempted to overshoot even with a semi only rule but yea I guess limiting it to mid/lo caps is really just trying to take away the marshalling responsibility which isn't great. Far better to let people use the equipment they prefer and then just enforce proper rules.

I'm thinking to keep things simpler I'd probably just for a 50/50 split of Firehawks / Raiders just so mags are interchangeable, both are pretty similar from a usability standpoint, but then there's still some "variety" just to give the rental players a bit of choice.

 

10 minutes ago, Madhouse said:

Going on from the Rate of Fire comments, quite a lot of sites have a 'no full auto' rule, also with it being CQB it'd be worth thinking about FPS limits and a chrono policy too.

 

Liking the idea of easily moveable walls to keep it fresh as well as upping the realism with a few extra props etc.

 

Also, go and have a chat with the competition, they may or may not be receptive but if you're all within a sensible distance of each other then you'll all be after the same players and their cash. It's all business at the end of the day and a bit of competition is healthy, but it's definitely worth making it 'friendly' as you never know who you'll need a favour from in the future. May be worth looking at when their midweek evening sessions are (if they have one) and doing yours on a different day?

 

Having a shop selling incidentals and stuff that people have a tendency to forget to pack will provide a nice bit of additional income, you could come to an agreement with a local store or do your own thing. Selling snacks and drinks is always going to be popular and you'll get brownie points from the local business community if you can get local lunch van to pop by - just make sure you agree times and also that the session is over in good time for everyone to get their kit stowed and be ready when the van arrives.

I've always wondered about the on-site store carrying a demo fleet and doing RIF rentals in a try-before-you-buy capacity (sort of), eg rent a RIF for £20 for the day and if you buy one you get the money back. No idea if that'd actually work.

 

Carry enough spares to ensure you can keep your rentals happy, no-one wants a game day ending with a broken gun. Also rentals are future regulars, you need to make sure they have a good day as you've the least goodwill built up with them, flip-side of that is don't forget the regulars as they are a reliable income stream - it doesn't take much to keep people happy.

 

If you've a local technician doing gun servicing on site for your rentals then why not re-sell that service on? or maybe set up as a range once in a while for people to come and test that new spring to ensure they're not running hot or set up their new sights or hop-up in advance of a game day.

 

Final point, make sure the parking's covered. You'll lose customers and sour relationships with your neighbours in no time if parking's a hassle.

 

 

Definitely getting friendly with the competition is a good shout yea. In my day job we make games in a small niche market and we run a discord and have devs from other games in there too who make similar games and are technically "competition" but we encourage people recommending other games than ours etc as it all helps everyone.

Speaking of rental equipment, I'm obviously a long way off from this stage but just getting ideas of costs and trying to avoid doing the day job for a minute so I started looking around at face protection. All I want is something full face, to limit the potential of someone removing the bottom half, losing some teeth, and then blaming me, and probably not a helmet but maybe that'd be better, especially to accommodate glasses wearers.

But the closest I can find is one that has mesh eye protection. BBs are plastic and can shatter. Doesn't really mix that well with mesh.

https://www.defconairsoft.co.uk/product/big-foot-airsoft-mask-with-mesh-goggles/
 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Graham Ranson

[Rogerborg]

8 minutes ago, Graham Ranson said:

I'm thinking to keep things simpler I'd probably just for a 50/50 split of Firehawks / Raiders just so mags are interchangeable, both are pretty similar from a usability standpoint, but then there's still some "variety" just to give the rental players a bit of choice.

 

That sounds sensible.  Although unless the stocking situation improves, you might find yourself having to take whatever you can get.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Graham Ranson said:

Speaking of rental equipment, I'm obviously a long way off from this stage but just getting ideas of costs and trying to avoid doing the day job for a minute so I started looking around at face protection. All I want is something full face, to limit the potential of someone removing the bottom half, losing some teeth, and then blaming me, and probably not a helmet but maybe that'd be better, especially to accommodate glasses wearers.

But the closest I can find is one that has mesh eye protection. BBs are plastic and can shatter. Doesn't really mix that well with mesh.

https://www.defconairsoft.co.uk/product/big-foot-airsoft-mask-with-mesh-goggles/

 

That's the typical rental mask. No fogging, and they stop 1.1J lightweight BBs OK, although they will get dented and let shards through.  If you go for polycarb based masks, you'll always get someone who can fog them up, even if you splash out on Dyes.  Granted, I'd have loved the option to try a Dye, with mesh masks available as a backup in the event of fog.

 

On shattering BBs, I'd ban ASG Blasters right off, they've had too many chances already.  I'd also suggest limiting a CQB site to 0.2 or 0.25g, there's no need for slinging anything heavier at short range and it means you can use your own 0.2g BBs at chrono without too much concern about Joule creep - as long as folk stick to the weight limit.

 

This is getting quite ranty, but something I'd emphasise is that fairness and safety can only be enforced with actions. Start from a friendly assumption of guilt, and apply that to your own marshals and work down - I was very happy to hear that the Depot sacked off one of their own marshals for being caught with a hot gun.  Walk around the safe zone, look at the guns and BBs that people are using.  Chrono players at respawn or while leaving the game zone using site BBs.  Know about the abusable guns, including the problem pistols: Mk23s with barrel extension silencers, Dan Wesson shell revolvers, CO2 pistols sneaked through as "just gas mate".

 

I wish there wasn't a problem with the very small minority of toxic or wilfully ignorant players who can piss all over everyone else's day, but they do exist and I'm adamant that the best solution is to get them out of the hobby. Better to punt a prat and have them throw a tantrum or leave a snotty review than to have half a dozen decent regular players grumbling about said prat not being dealt with week after week.

[Druid799]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

The difference being that adrenaline ouchies can result in some folk losing the rag.  Particularly so if it's a casual group who don't really know what to expect, or particularly want to get shot, then get lit up by Spammy McChav.

Most definitely this , CQB gets the adrenaline flowing like a busted tap , once you leave the safezone it’s basically full on until the marshal blows his whistle and shouts “game over !” You will 100% get accidental over kill it’s the nature of the beast but when you do get ‘Spammy McChav’ kicking the arse out of it it does goes from “oohh ya bastard !😖that stung !😂😂” when you get lit up just due to the nature of the game and you have a laugh with the other player who did it , it just as quickly can change to “you twat I’m gonna fecking do you !🤬” in the blink of an eye because someone’s being a cock .

HI-caps ? they are the maracas of the devil BUT a necessary evil if your doing rentals , most ‘newbies’ just wouldn’t get there head around mag changes in the ‘heat of battle’ , most have a problem just winding the mags up ! simple answer is just keep it to single shot only , makes life a lot easier ?

[BigStew]

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

 

On shattering BBs, I'd ban ASG Blasters right off, they've had too many chances already.  I'd also suggest limiting a CQB site to 0.2 or 0.25g, there's no need for slinging anything heavier at short range and it means you can use your own 0.2g BBs at chrono without too much concern about Joule creep - as long as folk stick to the weight limit.

 

A second on the Blaster how ever the tracers are decent just the regular bbs are garbage

[Graham Ranson]

4 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

That sounds sensible.  Although unless the stocking situation improves, you might find yourself having to take whatever you can get.

 

 

 

 

That's the typical rental mask. No fogging, and they stop 1.1J lightweight BBs OK, although they will get dented and let shards through.  If you go for polycarb based masks, you'll always get someone who can fog them up, even if you splash out on Dyes.  Granted, I'd have loved the option to try a Dye, with mesh masks available as a backup in the event of fog.

 

On shattering BBs, I'd ban ASG Blasters right off, they've had too many chances already.  I'd also suggest limiting a CQB site to 0.2 or 0.25g, there's no need for slinging anything heavier at short range and it means you can use your own 0.2g BBs at chrono without too much concern about Joule creep - as long as folk stick to the weight limit.

 

This is getting quite ranty, but something I'd emphasise is that fairness and safety can only be enforced with actions. Start from a friendly assumption of guilt, and apply that to your own marshals and work down - I was very happy to hear that the Depot sacked off one of their own marshals for being caught with a hot gun.  Walk around the safe zone, look at the guns and BBs that people are using.  Chrono players at respawn or while leaving the game zone using site BBs.  Know about the abusable guns, including the problem pistols: Mk23s with barrel extension silencers, Dan Wesson shell revolvers, CO2 pistols sneaked through as "just gas mate".

 

I wish there wasn't a problem with the very small minority of toxic or wilfully ignorant players who can piss all over everyone else's day, but they do exist and I'm adamant that the best solution is to get them out of the hobby. Better to punt a prat and have them throw a tantrum or leave a snotty review than to have half a dozen decent regular players grumbling about said prat not being dealt with week after week.

Haha yea, it'll be quite a while before I get to the purchasing stage so hopefully it'll all be sorted by then but if not I'll just get a smorgasbord of rentals and spin the variety as a feature.

Any particular brands that you do rate, Elite Force seem popular? But will need to find a wholesale provider really.

Vigilant, confident, fair, and consistent marshals will be a priority yea. And they are employees doing a job, if they're not good at it then yea they should be let go ( presuming they had all the required training beforehand that is )

Rules I'm thinking so far are semi only, hard limit on fps, no blindfiring, no prefiring ( unless it's just a legitimate tactic to stop someone popping their head around a door before you make a move ), chrono everything at the beginning with no excuses, random spot checks throughout the day ( particularly on known trouble gun models )
 

3 hours ago, Druid799 said:

Most definitely this , CQB gets the adrenaline flowing like a busted tap , once you leave the safezone it’s basically full on until the marshal blows his whistle and shouts “game over !” You will 100% get accidental over kill it’s the nature of the beast but when you do get ‘Spammy McChav’ kicking the arse out of it it does goes from “oohh ya bastard !😖that stung !😂😂” when you get lit up just due to the nature of the game and you have a laugh with the other player who did it , it just as quickly can change to “you twat I’m gonna fecking do you !🤬” in the blink of an eye because someone’s being a cock .

HI-caps ? they are the maracas of the devil BUT a necessary evil if your doing rentals , most ‘newbies’ just wouldn’t get there head around mag changes in the ‘heat of battle’ , most have a problem just winding the mags up ! simple answer is just keep it to single shot only , makes life a lot easier ?

Will need to have marshals focus primarily on safety and from that hopefully a non-toxic and welcoming environment will able to be fostered and then yea from that if people are enjoying themselves and feel safe / listened to then hopefully that will remove a lot of the trouble.
 

20 minutes ago, BigStew said:

A second on the Blaster how ever the tracers are decent just the regular bbs are garbage

Noted, avoiding that brand then.

Although I guess can't really police brands that players use but at least I can limit what I'm handing out to rentals.

[BigStew]

1 hour ago, Graham Ranson said:

Haha yea, it'll be quite a while before I get to the purchasing stage so hopefully it'll all be sorted by then but if not I'll just get a smorgasbord of rentals and spin the variety as a feature.

Any particular brands that you do rate, Elite Force seem popular? But will need to find a wholesale provider really.

Vigilant, confident, fair, and consistent marshals will be a priority yea. And they are employees doing a job, if they're not good at it then yea they should be let go ( presuming they had all the required training beforehand that is )

Rules I'm thinking so far are semi only, hard limit on fps, no blindfiring, no prefiring ( unless it's just a legitimate tactic to stop someone popping their head around a door before you make a move ), chrono everything at the beginning with no excuses, random spot checks throughout the day ( particularly on known trouble gun models )
 

Will need to have marshals focus primarily on safety and from that hopefully a non-toxic and welcoming environment will able to be fostered and then yea from that if people are enjoying themselves and feel safe / listened to then hopefully that will remove a lot of the trouble.
 

Noted, avoiding that brand then.

Although I guess can't really police brands that players use but at least I can limit what I'm handing out to rentals.

you can it. just means you come down hard on anyone breaking the ban or just bar anyone from using outside BBs (your regs will most likely be buying BBs from you anyway)

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by BigStew

[Shamal]

10 minutes ago, BigStew said:

you can it. just means you come down hard on anyone braking the ban or just bar anyone from using outside BBs (your regs will most likely be buying BBs from you anyway)

 

Not sure I would like having my freedom to choose what I puff up me barrel taken away from me.☹

Regards 

[BigStew]

16 minutes ago, Shamal said:

Not sure I would like having my freedom to choose what I puff up me barrel taken away from me.☹

Regards 

Understandable to a certain extent but many sites ban blaster and market stall specials ( for safety reason), Some only allow bio degradable and in the end it's a CQB site there is no reason to use anything over a 0.25g BB so you don't need specialist BBs. 

[Shamal]

18 minutes ago, BigStew said:

Understandable to a certain extent but many sites ban blaster and market stall specials ( for safety reason), Some only allow bio degradable and in the end it's a CQB site there is no reason to use anything over a 0.25g BB so you don't need specialist BBs. 

I have been using blaster bb's for years with no probs.

Combat South( before they closed) didn't ban them ucap haven't banned them the nae haven't banned them. I can understand market stall crap being a bit sus but who of us would buy iffy ammo from a market trader anyway.

I only use 2s for cqc but I still like to be in control of what I use and not have to have what I'm told. 👍

Regards 

[Spartan09]

2 hours ago, Graham Ranson said:

Any particular brands that you do rate, Elite Force seem popular? But will need to find a wholesale provider really.

 no prefiring ( unless it's just a legitimate tactic to stop someone popping their head around a door before you make a move ), chrono everything at the beginning with no excuses, random spot checks throughout the day ( particularly on known trouble gun models )

for BB brands, i use Valkyrie BBs, would be worth dropping them a line to see if they would be able to supply you in bulk.

also, should be a hard no on ANY prefiring..   if they cant see what they are shooting, then hold fire.  

definately chrono all guns, even pistols for CQB,  may also want to look into colored cable ties (tiny ones) or similar to tag guns, and alternate colours randomly so that its immediately obvious if someone hasnt chronoed their weapon on that particular game day (from what i have seen at sites, this would be a marmite issue,  some players will love the idea, while others will loathe the idea,  but at the end of the day its something that will keep everyone safe) 

random spot checks are a good safety measure too, and anyone found using a hot gun should be dealt with appropriately.  but depending on the site itself, beware that great changes in temperature could cause gas guns to creep over the limits even if there are no alterations made,  so in cases like that a player should be allowed to rechrono using a weaker gas, and if still over then use a different gun, a spare rental, or play without (if its a secondary) as some newer players might get caught unawares

case in point was my EMG john wick hi-capa..  went to an (outdoors) site, and during the morning games i filled it with red gas, then as the day went on the temperature rose, so i was spot checked in the afternoon and the gun was shooting hot. due to inexperience, i didnt realise the temperature had had such a drastic effect on its performance.  luckilly i hadnt used it in the afternoon games, and was close to safezone, the marshal had a small can of green gas on him, so he allowed me to re-gas with green and rechrono, and the gun was within the limits.  after regassing all three mags i had on me, i was allowed to return to play, and at the same time i was educated very effectively about how temperature affects gas guns.   i grant you, that this effect may not be as prevalent at CQB sites, but worth keeping in mind.

of course, blatant cheats who chrono on green, but then regass with black gas, or players who get caught multiple times for the same offence should be sent home as its clear they are doing it on purpose

Edited June 21, 2021 by Spartan09
finish typing - hit enter accidentally before message complete

[Tommikka]

25 minutes ago, Spartan09 said:

Chrono ….. (from what i have seen at sites, this would be a marmite issue,  some players will love the idea, while others will loathe the idea,  but at the end of the day its something that will keep everyone safe) 

 

There are defiantly people who don’t like to be chronoed (and also take great offence at in game checks)

 

But tough.  No chrono = no play, and if they can’t get their shit together to chrono when it’s been open while they were dithering around and they have to wait before going to play then that’s there problem

 

It also sparks my suspicion if they object too much ….

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Graham Ranson said:

Although I guess can't really police brands that players use

 

It's been a constant everywhere I've played at that the site owner holds court in their office or shop, surrounded by the marshal team and the aspirants, chatting the day away and contributing to stretching every "5 minute" break out to 20 minutes.  But it doesn't have to be that way.

 

Imagine a site where the owner actually walked around the safe zone asking how folk were doing, taking an interest, keeping an eye out for problems, and nudging things along rather than holding them up.  It would be like some sort of beautiful dream.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Shamal said:

I have been using blaster bb's for years with no probs

 

These are specifically the 0.2g or 0.25g non-bios.  You know airsoft, the QC is all over the place, even if you're sourcing the same brand from the same factory.  They've had two bad batches that I know of, one that I read about, one that I saw first hand with site Blasters sharding through mesh multiple times during a game day, resulting in a rental reflexively lifting his mask while under fire to rub his eyes. Gulp.

 

After that I swore off of them, particularly for CQB, although they're blanket banned at POW woodland for shattering.

[Jaylordofwaargh]

Crono: i am suspisious of any site that doesn't have manditory crono. Mayhem (essex) in my estimation went from "wow this is a great site" to "hold on, lead marshal said/did what!"

As to tagging, a second on the mini zip ties (rotate weekly/daily) or e cheeky bit of tape round the stock or grip make it really easy to see what has been crono'd. 

 

[Graham Ranson]

Thank you all for all comments so far, incredibly helpful!

 

Here is a link to the current rules list, it's not final nor in any particular order, just writing it as I think of things / things get mentioned.

 

All feedback is very welcome and encouraged.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ywLA_cuDyah09K6okAFq78eKRIZ8h-DVx3hX_LUYiaE/edit?usp=drivesdk

[EvilMonkee]

Agree with comments on mandatory chrono.  Agreed with semi only rule and no blindfiring or prefiring.  Experience from games at the Mall and Urban Assault show these to be very sensible rules for CQB.  I would also copy the Malls rule about heavy metal reusable bangs.  

 

Another rule I liked was the usage of numbered armbands for ID purposes.  Someone being a dick?  Take their number, report it.  Armbands being swapped from one arm to the other to signify being medic'd was another rule I always liked, can't remember what site it was from though.

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

Crono: i am suspisious of any site that doesn't have manditory crono.

 

The thing is though, mandating something isn't the same as enforcing it.

 

I've only ever had a tag checked once, and that was when I chronoed my G36 bare and then dressed it up in its lasgun costume, and - credit to the marshals - one came over to see what that was all about.

 

I've been chronoed in game twice, both at the defunct Depot, and one of those would been avoidable because they assumed the aforementioned G36 was one of their rental guns, and I was honest enough to say otherwise.  Both times they trusted me on BB weight, which was disappointing.

 

I'll re-iterate that pre-game chronoing only deals with the players who aren't a problem.

 

I wish it were otherwise, but there are some folk who deliberately or through wilful ignorance will take hot guns into the game. I don't mean accidental gas creep, but folk just not chronoing at all, or lying about BB weights, or modifying guns after chrono.  The long barrelled Mk23s and Dan Wessons (using high power shells) I mentioned above were both caught hot in game at the Depot and blanket banned because of it.  Although again, banning something is only the first step, and most chrono-dodging is invisible: you need to actually catch it in-game.

 

It's more of an issue in CQB where you're more likely to get point blank shots, and you really don't want someone putting 2J of 0.4g into a mesh mask.

[Tackle]

Remember a team way back that used to turn up late for games in order to miss the chrono session, one of the Marshall's pulled them in mid game, every one of a team of about 10 had hot guns.........bang permanent ban🤣

For reference, if memory serves me, they came from Essex & were led by a chunky loudmouthed Aussie bird, anyone remember her ?

[MiK]

A hit is anywhere on the person, gun included. 

What about ricochets ? People will do wall bending if “bounce-offs” are allowed

shooting through barrel sized holes allowed ? Like wise if a BB gets through what is/looks like hard cover ?

[Graham Ranson]

1 hour ago, EvilMonkee said:

Agree with comments on mandatory chrono.  Agreed with semi only rule and no blindfiring or prefiring.  Experience from games at the Mall and Urban Assault show these to be very sensible rules for CQB.  I would also copy the Malls rule about heavy metal reusable bangs.  

 

Another rule I liked was the usage of numbered armbands for ID purposes.  Someone being a dick?  Take their number, report it.  Armbands being swapped from one arm to the other to signify being medic'd was another rule I always liked, can't remember what site it was from though.

I like the numbered armband idea yea that's good and added. 

I can't find a copy of the Mall's rules, naturally, and was thinking it might be one of the rules for the new Zed Adventures site but it's not listed, able to tell me what the rule was?

 

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

The thing is though, mandating something isn't the same as enforcing it.

 

I've only ever had a tag checked once, and that was when I chronoed my G36 bare and then dressed it up in its lasgun costume, and - credit to the marshals - one came over to see what that was all about.

 

I've been chronoed in game twice, both at the defunct Depot, and one of those would been avoidable because they assumed the aforementioned G36 was one of their rental guns, and I was honest enough to say otherwise.  Both times they trusted me on BB weight, which was disappointing.

 

I'll re-iterate that pre-game chronoing only deals with the players who aren't a problem.

 

I wish it were otherwise, but there are some folk who deliberately or through wilful ignorance will take hot guns into the game. I don't mean accidental gas creep, but folk just not chronoing at all, or lying about BB weights, or modifying guns after chrono.  The long barrelled Mk23s and Dan Wessons (using high power shells) I mentioned above were both caught hot in game at the Depot and blanket banned because of it.  Although again, banning something is only the first step, and most chrono-dodging is invisible: you need to actually catch it in-game.

 

It's more of an issue in CQB where you're more likely to get point blank shots, and you really don't want someone putting 2J of 0.4g into a mesh mask.

Yea chrono will have to be absolutely enforced constantly, particularly for the guns that are known to be potential trouble. With enforced player bans if required.
 

7 minutes ago, MiK said:

A hit is anywhere on the person, gun included. 

What about ricochets ? People will do wall bending if “bounce-offs” are allowed

shooting through barrel sized holes allowed ? Like wise if a BB gets through what is/looks like hard cover ?

Hmm, good point. Maybe no ricochets.

For small gaps/ hard cover maybe just "if it looks like this was put here as an actual BB obstacle, or it looks like some of the walls just aren't joined properly and the gap isn't intentional, don't shoot through it" ?

[Graham Ranson]

Another possible revenue stream, space permitting, is a gun range.

Not really sure of logistics, or even interest, so just throwing out an idea but basically you'd rent a lane for £x an hour and you can come along with your own stuff and practice ( to avoid the nosy neighbour issue in back gardens ) or you could rent whatever things we have on-site for £x an hour to try out other guns etc.

Or joe public could come in for a few hours for the "shooting experience".

If all goes to plan with the actual gamezone outfitting then could also have teams/people rent out the main site on offdays / weekdays for kill-house style training sessions with little popup "bad buy / civilian / hostage" type targets, but again not sure if this is something that people would actually want.

[Harvem]

21 hours ago, Graham Ranson said:

I was thinking that the group would be all rentals but they would at least all know each other - rather than just a Rental only day where strangers turn up - so it might make it a bit better, but then yea it might make it worse if they all know each other and take things too far.
 

Just trying to limit the potential for anyone being tempted to overshoot even with a semi only rule but yea I guess limiting it to mid/lo caps is really just trying to take away the marshalling responsibility which isn't great. Far better to let people use the equipment they prefer and then just enforce proper rules.

I'm thinking to keep things simpler I'd probably just for a 50/50 split of Firehawks / Raiders just so mags are interchangeable, both are pretty similar from a usability standpoint, but then there's still some "variety" just to give the rental players a bit of choice.

 

Definitely getting friendly with the competition is a good shout yea. In my day job we make games in a small niche market and we run a discord and have devs from other games in there too who make similar games and are technically "competition" but we encourage people recommending other games than ours etc as it all helps everyone.

Speaking of rental equipment, I'm obviously a long way off from this stage but just getting ideas of costs and trying to avoid doing the day job for a minute so I started looking around at face protection. All I want is something full face, to limit the potential of someone removing the bottom half, losing some teeth, and then blaming me, and probably not a helmet but maybe that'd be better, especially to accommodate glasses wearers.

But the closest I can find is one that has mesh eye protection. BBs are plastic and can shatter. Doesn't really mix that well with mesh.

https://www.defconairsoft.co.uk/product/big-foot-airsoft-mask-with-mesh-goggles/
 

 

Are these masks properly rated for airsoft? Because they look exactly like these, which obviously are not safe at all:

 

 

[Druid799]

14 hours ago, Spartan09 said:

case in point was my EMG john wick hi-capa..  went to an (outdoors) site, and during the morning games i filled it with red gas, then as the day went on the temperature rose, so i was spot checked in the afternoon and the gun was shooting hot. due to inexperience, i didnt realise the temperature had had such a drastic effect on its performance. 

Exactly the same situation with me , using a TM KSG at an outdoor/indoor site and it was a crappy overcast start to the day chrono’ed absolutely fine , late morning sun comes out and turns in to a right scorcher . I hit one of the marshals in error he says “that stung a bit ! think we need to re-chrono that ?” and it was well over site limits . Luckily for me it wasn’t long after they came out so it had a lot of attention at chrono and the marshal had actually had a go of it and shot his mate in the arse so was fully a where of its capabilities . AND I’d been playing a good few yrs by then so even ‘experienced’ players can fall foul of the variants of the hobbie . 👍