Selling

[emilianoksa]

I know that UKARA is not a legal requirement for buying a rif..

 

But when a seller is dealing with somebody he doesn't know,  it is the only form of proof of defence that can be relied on,  and probably the only one that would stand up in court of law.

 

And yet, when I advertise rifs and make clear that I will sell only to those with a current UKARA, I am contacted by people who know full well their UKARA has expired. After the correspondence, exchange of details etc, I check with Fire Support and end up stopping the sale.

 

I know the law is stupid, but there is nothing I can do about it. Selling to those without a defence is a criminal offence, and I am not prepared to risk having a criminal record, which is a serious thing,  and all for the sake of a hundred and fifty quid. How would I explain to my daughter who lives in America that I could not get a visa to visit her? 

 

In future when I am selling a rif, I will insist that prospective buyers give me their full name, UKARA number and postal code, before I respond to them in any way. I am tired of wasting my time. 

 

My own UKARA has expired and I have come to terms with the fact that I will not be able to buy another rif unless I once again go through the whole procedure of playing three game in just over two month. Fair enough.

 

There must be lots of skirmishers out there in the same position. But they shouldn't be trying to buy guns on the sales section.

[Guest]

I take a more pragmatic approach, but as you’re the seller and it’s your risk, I agree it’s entirely up to you how you sell your RIF’s.

 

For me, I just need to know somebody is an airsofter, however we agree between us what that is.

 

My example is always myself, I have a valid,  legal UKARA number, in my name, yet I have never attended a skirmish in my life.

[Speedbird_666]

It's a tough one. I've sold guns before to people with elapsed UKARAs or 'other' defenses (dun dun DUN!), but I knew those people from various interactions and other (non RIF) sales, seen pictures/videos of them playing, and have been long-established on the forums.

 

Would I ever do the same to a zero-post new guy (or girl)? No way.

 

(note - I'm aware my post count on here is relatively low - I migrated from the Z1 forums a little while back)

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

If someone was to get that far through the sales process and let me know their UKARA was expired I would ask them to send me a recent pic of them at a skirmish. Fair play to you if you don't want to take that risk, but UKARA is by no means the be-all-and-end-all to validating an Airsofter.

 

 

[djben9]

Its there for a reason and that reason is a valid one. As you know, there are other ways to prove why you need one

what i find amusing is i have a 'certificate' for buying real guns and ammo.... my UKARA is now just gone out of date i cant obtain a new RIF (toy gun!) until i get it renewed....not that im desperate, i just need to get to a game now they have been open a few weeks and the rush died down!

but yeah its an odd one with many grey areas and laws we like to question on here daily. You just need to do what you think is right in the eyes of the law so you are not the one who will get caught out if it goes wrong, treat everyone as an idiot. They need to provide proof.and you need to be happy with it 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, emilianoksa said:

But when a seller is dealing with somebody he doesn't know,  it is the only form of proof of defence that can be relied on

 

I'd feel safer selling to someone who could provide professional indemnity or third party liability cover for a film or theatrical company.

 

 

Quote

and probably the only one that would stand up in court of law.

 

That's a bold assumption.

 

I'm struggling to find case law on the VCRA and sellings RIFs, but one interesting and not entirely unrelated piece of case law is Cooke vs DPP in which a chap was appealing his conviction for selling "[a] considerable quantity of police caps, helmets, badges and bags" contrary to the Police Act 1996, section 90

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/16/section/90

 

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2015/3312.html

 

Conviction overturned, because "lawful purpose" could be as broad as "theatrical, film or TV performance by actors (amateur and professional) in the role of a police officer; wearing at fancy dress parties and similar events; collection and display in a museum; private collection for personal enjoyment".

 

Now, that doesn't apply to us directly, our defences are more narrowly defined.  But the standard of proof isn't, and in a criminal case you only have to adduce reasonable doubt.  It's clear that their Lordships were minded to be generous in allowing defences.

 

Further, UKARA gives some evidence of what you have done. It says nothing about what you intend to do in the future, which is the standard of the S37 defence.  We've got a Home Office circular from some unnamed civil servant saying that they think a scheme like UKARA is sufficient, but it's not in the legislation itself and a court wouldn't be bound by that opinion.

 

Tl;dr version, if someone could show me that they'd played airsoft and were intending to play it again (booking would be best) then I'd be happy selling.  A current UKARA number would be a bonus, but having one only shows that you played within the last year - it could have been 364 days ago, which is thin gruel for showing future intent.  And right now there will be loads of people with expired UKARAs who are genuinely starting to play again.

 

 

Quote

How would I explain to my daughter who lives in America that I could not get a visa to visit her? 

 

All that said, this is a very valid concern, and they even ask about arrests, let alone convictions.  I imagine anything with "firearm" in it would be a big red flag.  I don't condemn you at all for being cautious, I'm only speaking for what I'd accept.

 

Quote

There must be lots of skirmishers out there in the same position. But they shouldn't be trying to buy guns on the sales section.

 

Well, we're not committing an offence.  Other than being time wasting dicks.

[Shamal]

Hi 

I have been a paid up member of UCAP for years now. 

As far as I know I don't have a UKARA number.

I also pay a subscription to UKAPU.

how would I know what my ukara number is?

Regards

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

1 minute ago, Shamal said:

Hi 

I have been a paid up member of UCAP for years now. 

As far as I know I don't have a UKARA number.

I also pay a subscription to UKAPU.

how would I know what my ukara number is?

Regards

The only way you'll have a UKARA number is if you filled out the form, showed your ID to a site staff member, paid their site membership fee and they sent off the form for you.

 

Having said that if you were to be able to prove you were a paid up member for those other orgs, with a photo of you at a skirmish, no reason why I wouldn't sell to you

[Tommikka]

Pretty much as everyone has already covered:

You are the person responsible for the sale, you don’t want a criminal record and you don’t want the fine that comes from a VCRA offence.

 

But - the buyers ‘defence’ is their intent to use the RIF for one of the approved activities in legislation  (museum, theatrical etc) or the additional skirmisher defence under  Statutory instrument:

They intend to play airsoft skirmishing at an insured site.

 

UKARA is a way of reasonably proving intent due to past activity.

You don’t need to insist on UKARA but are well entitled to stick to that as your personal policy.   You can accept other matters such as ‘recent’ photos of them skirmishing, proof of age etc

 

The odds of you having to prove it in court are low, but you also don’t want to be the test case.  If you feel the buyer can present something that could be reasonably accepted as intent to skirmish (on an insured site) then you have your reasonable defence in court

 

If you’re not happy then don’t sell

 

[Dogsbody100]

I have to say I find myself coming down on the side of emilianoska here, granted you can find ways of manoeuvring regarding this however erring on the side of caution has in my experience been the best way to avoiding any unpleasantness.

 

The VCRA seems to have been put together somewhat hastily and this shows up in cases like this.

 

As a former FAC holder my view is to look upon airsoft with the same level of ‘anality’  that one does when dealing with real steel, helps to avoid slip ups etc. 

 

A case in point - I have an an old glock which isn’t two tone (a RIF) but have never been through the UKARA process, it didn’t exist then. I still won’t take it to a site for games even if I know the rules apply to purchasing and not possession and I would probably be ok. 

 

Call it paranoia, call it whatever I just prefer to tread on the safe side when guns/weapons are involved and always plan for the worst but hope for the best. 

 

Certainly when selling to people you don’t know it adds yet another layer of smoke and mirrors to things and I can well understand why one would take the stance emilianoska has. 

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, Dogsbody100 said:

....

A case in point - I have an an old glock which isn’t two tone (a RIF) but have never been through the UKARA process, it didn’t exist then. I still won’t take it to a site for games even if I know the rules apply to purchasing and not possession and I would probably be ok. 

....

It’s up to you to act as you feel comfortable, but pre VCRA possession remains valid

 

The VCRA covers the sale, import, manufacture or modification of IFs and RIFs

The UKARA isn’t a licence or certificate, so isn’t required for a pre VCRA RIF until you decide to sell

 

However there is the other legislation that covers a valid reason for possessing in public, get stopped with a IF or RIF and you may need to explain why you are carrying it.  If transporting to or from an airsoft venue then that’s your good reason for carrying it (properly packed of course)

[Cromulon1994]

I haven't had a UKARA since last year, just due to moving "home" site, coupled with forgetting to get it logged and then covid.

Though all my current RIFS are pre 1870 design and technically they are exempt.

 

Little bit of trivia, we can probably agree that the mad max hwasan is one of the most realistic firearms for someone of the wrong persuasion to get their hands on?

Well, boxlock shotguns are a product of the 1850s. They just havent really changed since.

 

The term ‘modern firearm’ is defined in subsection 8 as a firearm other than one whose appearance would tend to identify it as having a design and mechanism of a sort first dating before 1870.

 

 

The law is odd. 

 

 

[Tackle]

Not had ukara for about 8+ years, but I rarely buy brand new gats, generally I've found that sellers don't ask for my ukara, possibly they've researched my online Airsoft related presence ?, & been satisfied I'm genuine, on the 3 occasions that I've been asked for it, I've explained why I no longer have it & pointed them to my considerable long term online Airsoft activity, on a number of forums, that's generally accepted, only on one occasion would a seller accept nothing less than ukara, not a problem, plenty more fish in the sea lol.

I accept that the vcra apparently frightens some people, personally I think it's a badly thought out crock of shit, BUT in the absence of something better & not wishing to have our playing conditions worsen akin to the ridiculous rules faced by players in many other countries, I'll do my best to toe the line.

What's paramount, whether your buying or selling, is common sense, something we don't always see enough of, thats the biggest threat to what we do, irrespective of whether someone presents what appears to be valid ukara details .

[Schnakey]

1 hour ago, Cromulon1994 said:

I haven't had a UKARA since last year, just due to moving "home" site, coupled with forgetting to get it logged and then covid.

Though all my current RIFS are pre 1870 design and technically they are exempt.

 

Little bit of trivia, we can probably agree that the mad max hwasan is one of the most realistic firearms for someone of the wrong persuasion to get their hands on?

Well, boxlock shotguns are a product of the 1850s. They just havent really changed since.

 

The term ‘modern firearm’ is defined in subsection 8 as a firearm other than one whose appearance would tend to identify it as having a design and mechanism of a sort first dating before 1870.

 

 

The law is odd. 

 

 

First cartridge revolver was 1857 so by that definition all revolvers would be exempt too. 

[Rogerborg]

12 hours ago, Dogsbody100 said:

A case in point - I have an an old glock which isn’t two tone (a RIF) but have never been through the UKARA process, it didn’t exist then. I still won’t take it to a site for games even if I know the rules apply to purchasing and not possession and I would probably be ok. 

 

That's... rather extreme.

 

As @Tommikka notes, if you come to the attention of the State on your way to or from a site, then regardless of whether you're in possession of an IF or a RIF, you have to provide proof of a reasonable excuse for that.  If you can't, you've got a bigger problem than the VCRA.  If you can ("On my way to/from an airsoft skirmish at Extant Airsoft, here are their details", I'd be astonished if the conversation then preceded to how or where or when you got a RIF.

 

We won't know until we have some test cases, but I can't see anything relevant.

[heroshark]

I bought rifs from UK shops and 2nd hand for many years without. My local site vouched for me if needed. Bit different for import though, friends used to do it for me. Most of the time it only takes looking through someones post history to assess if someone is a genuine player or collector for that matter.

[emilianoksa]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

My position remains as follows:

 

I am unable to skirmish again, so I no longer need my guns. They are simply taking up space.  However I am not desperate for money. I am losing a lot just by selling as new items at a fraction of their cost. I would like to recoup some of the money to use on other things, but I am prepared to hang on to my guns if necessary.

 

I have no way of knowing that a person without a current UKARA is a skirmisher. I know hardly anybody in the airsoft community. People can say anything on the phone. For all I know a caller wants to buy my stuff because it is cheap and sell it on to somebody else. 

 

Call me timid by all means but I am not prepared to be a test case. People have had their lives ruined because of ill thought out laws in our stupidly governed country. 

 

My prices are very good. My condition of sale is clear.

 

 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

15 minutes ago, emilianoksa said:

I have no way of knowing that a person without a current UKARA is a skirmisher.

 

We have no way of knowing that a person with a current UKARA intends to use RIFs for skirmishing in the future.

 

 

15 minutes ago, emilianoksa said:

For all I know a caller wants to buy my stuff because it is cheap and sell it on to somebody else. 

 

That could apply to someone with or without UKARA.

 

 

15 minutes ago, emilianoksa said:

Call me timid by all means but I am not prepared to be a test case.

 

Despite what I've just said, I do understand and agree with your caution.  UKARA is our best defence (short of solid evidence of theatrical intent).  It's just not a great indication of future intent.

 

I may be a little salty about this because my UKARA has expired, and rather ominously my site has just set all its Facebook groups to private. 😧

[Dogsbody100]

@Rogerborg

 

I do concede and agree that the example I gave is somewhat different to the one posted, where it links is the ‘test case’ side of it.

 

So far, there may not be any cases (that I know of) where someone was stopped by the authorities on the way to a skirmish in possession of a defenceless RIF but as emilianoska has said I don’t like the thought or possibility that I’ll be the first.

 

In the modern world we can see that the police rightly react swiftly to such issues, just ask Kai.

 

I accept that may seem extreme, especially when applied to the common sense driven environment of airsoft, there is though always that nagging chance....

 

None of this is to say that I have anything against an airsofter who would do it a different way again, the likelihood of issues is thin at best.

 

In emilianoska’s case, the consequences for them could arguably be worse than mine, and that old adage of ‘if in doubt leave it out’ is the only way of guaranteeing the avoidance of the many grey areas of the VCRA.

 

😁

[Tackle]

56 minutes ago, emilianoksa said:

 

I have no way of knowing that a person without a current UKARA is a skirmisher. I know hardly anybody in the airsoft community.

 

You know us 😜

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

1 hour ago, emilianoksa said:

 

My prices are very good. My condition of sale is clear.

 

 

 

 

All I can really say is "GLWS"

[emilianoksa]

Thanks.

[Kzwi]

On 06/08/2020 at 11:33, emilianoksa said:

 

 

I have no way of knowing that a person without a current UKARA is a skirmisher.

 

How do you go about checking it ? I am currently looking to post in classifieds for some of my replicas that I do not use ( impulse buys ... we have all done that, haven't we). I cannot find on the UKARA website where to check.

Sorry if the topic has been answered, I have looked to several threads where it advises to check with the retailers who have access but I do not really know the retailers.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kzwi said:

 

How do you go about checking it ? I am currently looking to post in classifieds for some of my replicas that I do not use ( impulse buys ... we have all done that, haven't we). I cannot find on the UKARA website where to check.

Sorry if the topic has been answered, I have looked to several threads where it advises to check with the retailers who have access but I do not really know the retailers.

 

Zeroone offer the service, just ring them. 

[mbea61]

im just curious about the comment which states that if a gun is by type or design pre dating 1870 that anyone is allowed to buy a rif from that period well like the gentleman said the first revolvers that used metal cartridges were in full production in 1855 this refers to the smith & wesson model 1 revolver thing is the gent who held the patent on it originally worked for one s. colt and showed him his new design as well as a colt 1851 he had made the changes to colt turned him down flat thats why production went to smith & wesson thing is when i asked about buying a single action colt airsoft pistol i was told i needed the ukara because they were made in 1873 which confused me as it dosnt say they had to be in production by 1870 it says they only need to be by type or design the original patent says that the revolver was loaded by a board through cylinder and loaded from the rear with a metal self contain cartridge and that all single action revolvers that fire metal cartridges work this way so by definition i should be able to buy any pistol like a colt saa a schofield or remmington even though they did not go into production till after 1870 so how come the sale of such airsoft pistols to people who dont hold the ukara are not allowed sorry about the rant