Comfort levels in CQB

[MAX DICKER]

Playing at strikeforce last sunday with a TM g18 set to full auto (using it for burst fire as expressly allowed in the briefing). I mugged a guy in a corner putting a burst into his chest and he says "where's the need in that?". I'm pretty baffled by this question. I guess some people aren't comfortable with burst fire in CQB. I've known  people to be quite vocal about 1joule limits being to high for CQB, and though everything I use is under 300fps with 0.2g, I think 1joule is fine. Also, bang rule sucks and I won't play a site that uses it.

 

So what's peoples' prefences/gripes/opinions on such things?

[Enid_Puceflange]

Probably just a reaction to the situation as he had shat himself

im sure he’s over it now (And showered) 😂

[Adolf Hamster]

Its an interesting question, if you think about it a lot of places dont allow full auto in cqb, but you leave the building? Then fine at any range, and inside the building with the right build and trigger finger you can overtake what most guns do in full auto on semi (as famously demonstrated on youtube).

 

Tbh i'd say a lower energy limit and a rate of fire cap would be much more preferable for dedicated sites for cqb especially where engagement distances mean folk dont need the extra punch.

 

Of course it gets tricky for letting folk on with guns at more conventional limits, or sites with buildings and outdoor areas where folk arent going to want to sacrifice range for the sake of a small cqb section of gameplay, and tbh for those scenarios i can't see what other way there is of dealing with it without opening the floodgates of endless overshooting allegations (which can be bad enough at the best of times but that's a different thread).

 

As for the bang rule i always consider it courtesy only, and i give them on a hair trigger because there's always going to be that one guy who "doesnt take bang kills".

[clumpyedge]

"Just because you can doesn't mean you should" I think applies here.

 

Most people that play cqb are used to single shot as that is the most common rule in cqb. 

[Robert James]

Echo above. If I'm unsuspecting and someone puts more than 4 onto me, I'm probably going to question it. 

[Musica]

5 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Echo above. If I'm unsuspecting and someone puts more than 4 onto me, I'm probably going to question it. 

4 at my local site is the start of overkill.  No bang rule.

 

DSG warriors really annoy me with their arcs of fire just blasting anything. They aren't aiming just guessing and sending enough volume to be sure. I think the only way around that is ammo limits if they want to sent 10-20 bbs around every corner they pie then they might think twice if ammo was limited.  

[heroshark]

I'm old school we used to play FA indoor so I don't mind it, baring in mind it was with old school weaponry. That said many are not used to it and it's fairly uncommon now. As a seasoned player I now realize it can be shit and idiots can push it beyond the realms of fun. Some will push the gun to the n'th power limit of the site and rof if rof limit is set.

 

[Robert James]

27 minutes ago, Musica said:

4 at my local site is the start of overkill.  No bang rule.

 

DSG warriors really annoy me with their arcs of fire just blasting anything. They aren't aiming just guessing and sending enough volume to be sure. I think the only way around that is ammo limits if they want to sent 10-20 bbs around every corner they pie then they might think twice if ammo was limited.  

I know it's site depending but I agree.

 

A lot of videos I see on YouTube are people pre firing a corner assuming someone may be there and sending 20 BBS down 

[Musica]

3 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I know it's site depending but I agree.

 

A lot of videos I see on YouTube are people pre firing a corner assuming someone may be there and sending 20 BBS down 

 some may see it as no different to "suppressing fire"  but for me pre firing a a blind corner (a corner you seen no one go in or out from and have no prior knowledge they anyone is actually there) is really just making up for lack of skill / target acquisition.   

[Sawyer]

You're out to get a kill. Outside ringing off 3 or 4 or more shots at one target is fair game, just due to BB inaccuracy. 

 

Indoors there's really no need to go full auto. You can, but why do it?

 

In a similar vein I played a game the other week where someone was using .30s indoors. They stung like a complete ***t. The trigger spam didn't help either. 0.2s or 0.25s would have been more reasonable, but hey, there's no rule against it.

[clumpyedge]

I'm not completely against burst or full auto as I know some places do it, its more expecting people to not be a dick about it and treat others how they would expect to be treated. No-one would want to be laced with bbs if someone gets the drop on them so not doing it in the first place will often set the tone for the day. I've been to sites before where even though they allow full auto its been put to a vote and semi has been the rule of the day by majority.

 

I'm also not particularly fussed about bb weight, if someone has their hop set for a higher weight then it is what it is as long as no-one is jule creeping or cheating a chrono.

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

I'm not completely against burst or full auto as I know some places do it, its more expecting people to not be a dick about it and treat others how they would expect to be treated. No-one would want to be laced with bbs if someone gets the drop on them so not doing it in the first place will often set the tone for the day. I've been to sites before where even though they allow full auto its been put to a vote and semi has been the rule of the day by majority.

 

I'm also not particularly fussed about bb weight, if someone has their hop set for a higher weight then it is what it is as long as no-one is jule creeping or cheating a chrono.

That's where I think the mall set their standards high. I had to clear a jam on semi so whacked into full and sprayed in an empty room, Marshall came running over and said why did I hear full auto? I explained and he said next time about clearing a jam first before you spray it. 

 

Plantation is full auto unless within 30 meters I think, which is fine I guess unless someone has incredible aim and you get hit 7/8 times but even then I don't mind as it's from a distance. 

 

When I went to Hockley I got 3 in the top of my head even though when the grenade went off it meant we couldn't fire or move for 5 seconds, the only saving grace for that person was that they were a kid otherwise I'd probably have broken the gun

[clumpyedge]

1 minute ago, Robert James said:

Plantation is full auto unless within 30 meters I think, which is fine I guess unless someone has incredible aim and you get hit 7/8 times but even then I don't mind as it's from a distance. 

 

 

Yeah I think you are right, one thing I do notice is most sites state something around 3 second burst which is almost never adhered too. Personally speaking I don't really understand why anyone other than a support gunner should be using full auto but that's just my personal thing and is a rule at a few sites I play at.

[Albiscuit]

8 minutes ago, Robert James said:

That's where I think the mall set their standards high. I had to clear a jam on semi so whacked into full and sprayed in an empty room, Marshall came running over and said why did I hear full auto? I explained and he said next time about clearing a jam first before you spray it. 

 

Plantation is full auto unless within 30 meters I think, which is fine I guess unless someone has incredible aim and you get hit 7/8 times but even then I don't mind as it's from a distance. 

 

The Mall's rules and marshaling should almost be the standard throughout. I cant think of a time where I persoanlly had an issue or saw something which made me question their rules or how they dealt with problems.

 

And yup, 30m engagement at AP is a GREAT rule!! makes so much sense...

 

Back on topic though, the OP cannot see the need for the opposition to ask why a full auto burst in the chest was needed in a CQB environment?? I think if someone got the drop on you and surprised you from close quarters with a full auto burst in the chest you would also be surprised and think it was a little too much. 

 

Totally agree with the "just because you can, you shouldnt" quote as full auto, short bursts or trigger spamming are not needed in CQB. I know people like to get 2/3 off on semi which is fine, but getting laced up and shot to shit by people putting 6/8 into you and having more than one person doing this can cause issues and resentment leading towards overkill.

[Musica]

24 minutes ago, Sawyer said:

You're out to get a kill. Outside ringing off 3 or 4 or more shots at one target is fair game, just due to BB inaccuracy. 

 

Indoors there's really no need to go full auto. You can, but why do it?

 

In a similar vein I played a game the other week where someone was using .30s indoors. They stung like a complete ***t. The trigger spam didn't help either. 0.2s or 0.25s would have been more reasonable, but hey, there's no rule against it.

 

13 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

I'm not completely against burst or full auto as I know some places do it, its more expecting people to not be a dick about it and treat others how they would expect to be treated. No-one would want to be laced with bbs if someone gets the drop on them so not doing it in the first place will often set the tone for the day. I've been to sites before where even though they allow full auto its been put to a vote and semi has been the rule of the day by majority.

 

I'm also not particularly fussed about bb weight, if someone has their hop set for a higher weight then it is what it is as long as no-one is jule creeping or cheating a chrono.

 

My site has 0.25g limit. I always wondered why as if we are playing with joules does it feel different? 

[clumpyedge]

1 minute ago, Musica said:

 

 

My site has 0.25g limit. I always wondered why as if we are playing with joules does it feel different? 

 

Not entirely sure why people set weight limits tbh as you can get just as close to people in woodland so...

 

Someone else may be able to explain it if they also play at a site that has weight limit rules.

[Tackle]

Me, why shoot someone 4 times (or more) when one shot will do, same goes for the placement of the shot, if you've got the clear drop on someone, especially if they don't know your there, why the chest precariously close to the face, I'll always go for the butt/thigh in that situation, still gonna make em jump but not ruin their day.

as for the bang rule, I'm cool with it & will have a lot more respect for a fellow player who gets up close & says "pssst, your dead mate", than some clown that overkills me from 8ft.

if I get that close to someone & clearly have the drop on them, I'll always offer a bang kill, irrespective of whether the site allows them, WHY ?, because I'm not an insecure twat who thinks what we do is real or in some way reflects on their manliness lol...........but if you then try some matrix style quick draw shit, see how quickly I release my inner cnut 😜

[Musica]

8 minutes ago, Tackle said:

Me, why shoot someone 4 times (or more) when one shot will do, same goes for the placement of the shot, if you've got the clear drop on someone, especially if they don't know your there, why the chest precariously close to the face, I'll always go for the butt/thigh in that situation, still gonna make em jump but not ruin their day.

as for the bang rule, I'm cool with it & will have a lot more respect for a fellow player who gets up close & says "pssst, your dead mate", than some clown that overkills me from 8ft.

if I get that close to someone & clearly have the drop on them, I'll always offer a bang kill, irrespective of whether the site allows them, WHY ?, because I'm not an insecure twat who thinks what we do is real or in some way reflects on their manliness lol...........but if you then try some matrix style quick draw shit, see how quickly I release my inner cnut 😜

 

I thought aiming for the buttocks /thigh inflicts more pain than chest or back? 

 

If I notice someone who already has their weapon aimed at me then I take the hit.  Take this clip should start at 3:02 and you can see me look away for a split second he had me dead to rights. 

 

 

 

But if they start firing and miss I return fire and people get salty as they assume you can't miss that close. 

[Albiscuit]

15 minutes ago, Tackle said:

Me, why shoot someone 4 times (or more) when one shot will do, same goes for the placement of the shot, if you've got the clear drop on someone, especially if they don't know your there, why the chest precariously close to the face, I'll always go for the butt/thigh in that situation, still gonna make em jump but not ruin their day.

as for the bang rule, I'm cool with it & will have a lot more respect for a fellow player who gets up close & says "pssst, your dead mate", than some clown that overkills me from 8ft.

if I get that close to someone & clearly have the drop on them, I'll always offer a bang kill, irrespective of whether the site allows them, WHY ?, because I'm not an insecure twat who thinks what we do is real or in some way reflects on their manliness lol...........but if you then try some matrix style quick draw shit, see how quickly I release my inner cnut 😜

 

hmm, I see your point but im personally not keen on the bang rule, if im that close I can pop one into a rig of leg easily enough and not cause too much pain, I do like the american rule of hand on shoulder = knife kill though. 

3 minutes ago, Musica said:

If I notice someone who already has their weapon aimed at me then I take the hit.

 

But if they start firing and miss I return fire and people get salty as they assume you can't miss that close. 

 

Likewise on both counts.  I would rather take a hit than take a shot and if someone calls it before I shoot them, then I wont shoot them. ut it is funny when they shoot from close and miss  

[Sawyer]

45 minutes ago, Musica said:

 

 

My site has 0.25g limit. I always wondered why as if we are playing with joules does it feel different? 

A lighter BB will lose energy faster. A heavier BB will maintain energy for longer. So both leave the barrel at 1 joule, but the lighter BB might hit you at say 0.5j but the heavier one will have 0.8j, let's say. (These aren't exact scientific figures, but just examples)

[Musica]

4 minutes ago, Sawyer said:

A lighter BB will lose energy faster. A heavier BB will maintain energy for longer. So both leave the barrel at 1 joule, but the lighter BB might hit you at say 0.5j but the heavier one will have 0.8, let's say. (These aren't exact scientific figures, but just examples)

Hmm I see the science but at the CQB distances at my site I don't think it makes much difference. I've literally have my muzzle in a guys chest when we both tried to go around the same corner. Fun story he didn't take the hit which was me actually firing as we both had the drop on each other. 

[Adolf Hamster]

15 minutes ago, Musica said:

I thought aiming for the buttocks /thigh inflicts more pain than chest or back? 

 

it's not that bad, depends on what the person's wearing, obviously if they're in a plate carrier chest is going to be more preferable.

 

had a mate get the drop on me last game day, his choices were between my face and the buttstock of my rifle, he took the latter option and i wasn't about to try and argue a gun hit didn't count.....

 

1 minute ago, Sawyer said:

A lighter BB will lose energy faster. A heavier BB will maintain energy for longer. So both leave the barrel at 1 joule, but the lighter BB might hit you at say 0.5j but the heavier one will have 0.8j, let's say. (These aren't exact scientific figures, but just examples)

 

exactly, the key point though is it never has more energy than it starts with, so while at range heavier ammo will hit harder up close there's not much in it. of course if you're a dedicated cqb'er then heavier ammo is wasted effort given it's advantages lie in range work.

 

this is of course assuming the joules are staying constant, and they aren't pulling the old "it's .2's honest guvnor" or going for the ol' joule creep option.

[Tackle]

43 minutes ago, Musica said:

 

I thought aiming for the buttocks /thigh inflicts more pain than chest or back? 

. 

Lol, quite likely, shoot me in the arse from 10ft & I'll jump up & squeal like a bubby that's just had its first vaccination, but better that than a high burst that a player my instinctively duck in to & take a mouthful of bb's, which is more painful & sometimes expensive.

dont get me wrong, I expect to get hit in the mush sometimes, yep it hurts but I won't get the hump about if it's "legitimate", & by the same degree I have no problem targeting someone's head if that's all I can see.

[Tommikka]

The rules in place are up to the organisers/site owners.

There can be discussion had with players but that is to be beforehand and not in the middle of a game because Fred the regular didn’t like to be taken out by the rental kid. 
 

I run on two principles similar to the bang rule and decide whether to use them or not depending on the game format, environment and player type:

 

Surrender - an optional call between two players, I can shoot you but it’s close and I’m offering not to.  You then need to be ready to enforce your shot if they decline

 

Barrel tag / knife kill / touch - an enforced kill where you have sneaked up on someone and have made contact rather than shot them.  This is of value to the sneaky player to take advantage of getting up close without highlighting themselves with gunshots

 

I avoid minimum engagement distance style bang rules - provided the player level is appropriate.

Our guns in both airsoft and paintball are considered ‘safe’ at their barrel velocity.  Paintball has been exempt from the latest one joule changes due to frangibility of Paintball’s.  With their size and mass paintball would pretty much be destroyed with a 1 joule limit.

A minimum engagement limit bang rule is more suited to the once only / occasional recreational rental player.  This along with headshots and gun shots not counting is to retain players in the game and most importantly to assist with safety to make sure they are looking where they shoot.  Historically headshots were avoided due to unsuitable eye protection 

 

CQB by its nature includes shooting within what could the the minimum engagement limit of other environments.

 

 

Full auto isn’t ideal, however a fast trigger finger in semi can send down more balls then full auto mode 

Discipline should step in

 

 

I dislike full auto for safety implications - a moving finger puts the player in control.

A snagged trigger in semi fires one shot, a snagged trigger in full auto carries on firing 

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

1 hour ago, Tackle said:

Me, why shoot someone 4 times (or more) when one shot will do... 

 

... in an ideal world sure but alot of the time its not ideal. Its all very circumstantial but i shoot till i hear hit or see the hand. I think we've all shot someone, had them not feel it / take a while to process and shoot you back ending in a trade. So i tend to shoot more then once. Dont get me wrong - excessive overkill does happen. But assuming rules are followed we all need to suck it up a bit.