What are you looking for in Airsoft?

[Immortal]

1 hour ago, Albiscuit said:

@StayOnTarget @Immortal

 

Was mainly thinking out loud in the above post but my bit about ROF and FPS being a little more universal was from a site point of view. 

Of course there will be people who want to mod their stuff to be faster, more powerful, more colourful etc and that’s great. There’s loads of industries build off this. 

 

But more from a Sunday skirmish point of view if sites had a more universal approach to site limits and manufacturers also took a more similar approach it would stop a lot of issues.  Less overkill, fewer hot guns, no more getting rinsed and out played by teams with super HPA rigs and a more fairer day for all.

do we need arp9s with drum mags being basically the same as a support weapon? Or a MK23 with a scope and body kit as good as a sniper rifle?

 

one of the reasons (not all but quite a few) people get into airsift is the realism of the kit. So why should a pistol be as effective as a sniper or a smg a cheaper version of a support gun? 

 

Im not saying this SHOULD be the standard, just putting it out there for discussion. 

I personally can see how it may benefit. Yeah choice is great, and there should be room for that too. 

 

I see that as a catch 22.

 

How do you have a universal level of ROF/FPS site wide and at the same time not allow certain rifs to be capable of matching each other?

 

The realism is visual/mental. My M4 doesn't reach out to 400 metres, my M249 doesn't mimic the real one except externally, etc... the only realism is found in the immersion. It's acting, role play, dressing up like a dude playing a dude etc...

 

If a pistol can't match a sniper, etc, then you'd have to list what you define as acceptable for any given model. That would spell the end of a site. Can you imagine enforcing that different models must adhere to specifics. I can't. 

 

I know you didn't say it quite like this, I'm trying to think how this could play out. Just imagine arriving on a Sunday:

 

"Sorry you can't play because your pistol can hit a human target at 20 metres. You'll have to modify your RIF to play here"

"Sorry you can't play because your M4 can't hit a human target at 60 metres. You'll have to modify your RIF to play here"

"Sorry a pistol shouldn't be that accurate and the FPS is too low. You'll have to modify your RIF to play here"

"Sorry you can't have an ARP drum but you can use a hicap and fire it just as quickly. Otherwise you can't play here."

 

I don't know, it's a difficult concept and whilst I think I understand where your coming from I can only see it on paper and not working in real life for.

 

There's plenty of variation of what a real world guns can do or can't do and that can vary from model to model, gunsmith to gunsmith and so on so to me it's more realistic that we have that same variation even if it's just airoft mimicing that variation and not the actual gun itself.

 

I still don't see how any othat could stop someone rinsing you or being out played. I mean out played could be nothing more than the players skill. Another example; someone sees a youtuber taking scalps all day long with a bolt action rif. They use his exact rif and can't hit a thing. You can't even out a skill set. Again life isn't fair, fair is a myth. If someone wants to rinse someone it's the person that needs attention, not the tool. You know, it's not guns that kill, it's the person pulling the trigger scenario.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Albiscuit said:

 

 I think theres too much choice...

 

There are literally hundreds of guns across all manufacturers and price points. And in some cases the quality varies widely. 

Its pretty much the same in any industry though to be fair and mostly avoidable but thats  more of a bash on capitalism rather then airsoft   

 

Not saying they should all be made the same, a choice between steel and plastic should still be there, but does there really need to be 200 different variants of a £180 M4 when ultimately they all do the same thing?

 

There certainly is a lot of choice of various models. But do all these M4 rifs do the same thing? If they did then wouldn't that mean mean a universal system is already in play?

 

And to go back to realism, aren't many M4 variants just a mimic of the real world choices? To be fair there is a lot of variation in the different models and many versions do look similar but can be different none the less. I bet the average Joe doesn't know an M4 from an XM177E2. I mean they're not the same gun, but they sure look similar.

 

Anyway, again I hope you don't think I'm bashing you. Just conversing. I do understand an element of what your saying however I'm not undertanding how it would really pan out. I do think it would kill the sport rather quickly though (although my interpretation may not be the same as what yours is so sorry if I've misinterpreted your point 👍 )

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, Albiscuit said:

do we need arp9s with drum mags being basically the same as a support weapon? Or a MK23 with a scope and body kit as good as a sniper rifle?

 

Allah loves wondrous variety.

 

3 hours ago, Albiscuit said:

one of the reasons (not all but quite a few) people get into airsift is the realism of the kit.

 

I pledge to never try and stop you from running real-caps.

[Seth_Erebor]

2 hours ago, Albiscuit said:

 

 I think theres too much choice...

 

There are literally hundreds of guns across all manufacturers and price points. And in some cases the quality varies widely. 

Its pretty much the same in any industry though to be fair and mostly avoidable but thats  more of a bash on capitalism rather then airsoft   

 

Not saying they should all be made the same, a choice between steel and plastic should still be there, but does there really need to be 200 different variants of a £180 M4 when ultimately they all do the same thing?

 

 

 

**And in all honesty I went a little off topic, what I posted is not what I am looking for in Airsoft, more of an ideal situation...**

 

I play for fun, as long as I have a good day and enjoy myself Its all good. I suppose the realism of the guns and the adrenaline rush when playing is what appeals to me. 

As long as I have guns they look good and sites with games that engage me I will keep playing.

 

 

Correct, too much choice can be a bad thing.

This goes to the core of society... you know what I'll spare you that rant.

 

We need just enough that they compete and can afford to innovate but not so many that it's a race to the bottom with only losers.

Only one thing comes after that, if you follow trends in different markets you can probably guess.

 

Especially in startups there will be a few that start around the same time, they match in growth until one or two clear leaders choke out the rest.

 

Airsoft is somewhere in that process, I couldn't say exactly where but I can guarantee that when the market leader(s) emerge it will not be business as usual. You will see 70-80% of retailers and sites close down, with only niche ones left and then they will be acquired.

 

I could say more but I'm happy with that.

 

[Rogerborg]

32 minutes ago, Seth_K said:

You will see 70-80% of retailers and sites close down, with only niche ones left and then they will be acquired.

 

What a curious statement.

 

There is a demand to buy airsoft toys from the lowest priced vendor, and to use them at a local site not run by nobbers.

 

The only thing that will stop the natural process of supplying that demand will be the heavy hand of State regulation.

 

Paintball has about a 10 year head start on airsoft, and has already survived some shenanigans with markers being classed as firearms.

 

 I'm not aware of any signs of it becoming a corporate monopoly, although I'd be interested to hear otherwise.

[StayOnTarget]

4 hours ago, Albiscuit said:

@StayOnTarget @Immortal

 

Was mainly thinking out loud in the above post but my bit about ROF and FPS being a little more universal was from a site point of view. 

Of course there will be people who want to mod their stuff to be faster, more powerful, more colourful etc and that’s great. There’s loads of industries build off this. 

 

But more from a Sunday skirmish point of view if sites had a more universal approach to site limits and manufacturers also took a more similar approach it would stop a lot of issues.  Less overkill, fewer hot guns, no more getting rinsed and out played by teams with super HPA rigs and a more fairer day for all.

do we need arp9s with drum mags being basically the same as a support weapon? Or a MK23 with a scope and body kit as good as a sniper rifle?

 

one of the reasons (not all but quite a few) people get into airsift is the realism of the kit. So why should a pistol be as effective as a sniper or a smg a cheaper version of a support gun? 

 

Im not saying this SHOULD be the standard, just putting it out there for discussion. 

I personally can see how it may benefit. Yeah choice is great, and there should be room for that too. 

Mate you've brought up a very interesting topic and I do get where your coming from I've seen on YouTube GBB only days and they looked spot on and I think your Idea would be like a more realistic milsim for want of a better word?

1)pistols 15m max range

2)smg 15-25m

3)assault/support 25-50m

4)dmr/snipers 50+

I guess it could be controlled by fps or some thing its just a rough idea they could limit mags and ammo too....I quite like the idea

[Adolf Hamster]

36 minutes ago, StayOnTarget said:

1)pistols 15m max range

 

all 3 of my pistols are laughing at this

[StayOnTarget]

4 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

all 3 of my pistols are laughing at this

I know I know just trying to give an example of how it might work mind you my pistol last week when it was cold wasn't laughing 😢

[Albiscuit]

On 07/12/2018 at 14:45, Seth_K said:

Airsoft is somewhere in that process, I couldn't say exactly where but I can guarantee that when the market leader(s) emerge it will not be business as usual. You will see 70-80% of retailers and sites close down, with only niche ones left and then they will be acquired.

 

I could say more but I'm happy with that.

 

 

 

Am I the only person who is slightly irked by your 'mysterious airsoft druid' type personality you project?

 

Im not out to wind up or insult anyone, but you do post rather vague statements like this that edge towards the fact you can see the future, have been to the future or are some sort of secret airsoft insider who knows all but wont actually tell anything...

 

On 07/12/2018 at 12:10, Immortal said:

 

I see that as a catch 22.

 

 

Anyway, again I hope you don't think I'm bashing you. Just conversing. I do understand an element of what your saying however I'm not undertanding how it would really pan out. I do think it would kill the sport rather quickly though (although my interpretation may not be the same as what yours is so sorry if I've misinterpreted your point 👍 )

 

No totally get your points and glad to have a conversation online with someone that doesnt see eye to eye without them swearing, calling me a prick or my mum a troll, although both of those tend to be true   

 

In answer to your questions, I simply dont know.. I was typing without really thinking and it just opened up out of me haha. I get your point about it killing the sport. Maybe I would prefer a more controlled type of scenario like a realsim where weapons have to conform to certain standards?

 

That being said playing with/against people with bonkers guns can sometimes be fun. and I have been outplayed by plenty of people with shite guns or just running a pistol etc and yeah cheaters will cheat. Again my typing was quicker than my brain as usual. 

[Seth_Erebor]

18 hours ago, Albiscuit said:

 

 

Am I the only person who is slightly irked by your 'mysterious airsoft druid' type personality you project?

 

Im not out to wind up or insult anyone, but you do post rather vague statements like this that edge towards the fact you can see the future, have been to the future or are some sort of secret airsoft insider who knows all but wont actually tell anything...

 

 

No totally get your points and glad to have a conversation online with someone that doesnt see eye to eye without them swearing, calling me a prick or my mum a troll, although both of those tend to be true   

 

In answer to your questions, I simply dont know.. I was typing without really thinking and it just opened up out of me haha. I get your point about it killing the sport. Maybe I would prefer a more controlled type of scenario like a realsim where weapons have to conform to certain standards?

 

That being said playing with/against people with bonkers guns can sometimes be fun. and I have been outplayed by plenty of people with shite guns or just running a pistol etc and yeah cheaters will cheat. Again my typing was quicker than my brain as usual. 

 

Yeah, I do that, I'll tone that down.

I haven't seen the future of Airsoft but... the future is what we create, so in that sense if you are the one doing the creating you have also (potentially) seen the future.

 

You saw my thread/topic a while back, right? "Slightly irked" is an understatement haha! 

 

PM me, always happy to have a phone call and chat one-on-one.

 

 

[Seth_Erebor]

On 07/12/2018 at 15:17, Rogerborg said:

 

What a curious statement.

 

There is a demand to buy airsoft toys from the lowest priced vendor, and to use them at a local site not run by nobbers.

 

The only thing that will stop the natural process of supplying that demand will be the heavy hand of State regulation.

 

Paintball has about a 10 year head start on airsoft, and has already survived some shenanigans with markers being classed as firearms.

 

 I'm not aware of any signs of it becoming a corporate monopoly, although I'd be interested to hear otherwise.

 

I say that because I see the spotlight slowly moving towards Airsoft and that means change.

As you say, Paintball is 10 years ahead, so we can use that as guide on trends, bar any disruptive events.

 

Does that make a little more sense? As a possibility.

[EvilMonkee]

21 hours ago, Albiscuit said:

 

 

Am I the only person who is slightly irked by your 'mysterious airsoft druid' type personality you project?

 

Im not out to wind up or insult anyone, but you do post rather vague statements like this that edge towards the fact you can see the future, have been to the future or are some sort of secret airsoft insider who knows all but wont actually tell anything...

 

 

No totally get your points and glad to have a conversation online with someone that doesnt see eye to eye without them swearing, calling me a prick or my mum a troll, although both of those tend to be true   

 

In answer to your questions, I simply dont know.. I was typing without really thinking and it just opened up out of me haha. I get your point about it killing the sport. Maybe I would prefer a more controlled type of scenario like a realsim where weapons have to conform to certain standards?

 

That being said playing with/against people with bonkers guns can sometimes be fun. and I have been outplayed by plenty of people with shite guns or just running a pistol etc and yeah cheaters will cheat. Again my typing was quicker than my brain as usual. 

 

Nope, no your not. Very annoying.  Especially as I think hes full of sh*t anyway.

[Seth_Erebor]

1 hour ago, EvilMonkee said:

 

Nope, no you're not. Very annoying.  Especially as I think hes full of sh*t anyway.

 

That's just the lactose intolerance and my reckless diet 😉

 

 

[EvilMonkee]

Now that was actually funny.....

 

You do come across as very intelligent and I have no doubt you are but I also get the overriding impression that you are trying subliminally to show off by hinting how much you know and what great ideas that you have and what great meetings or events you have been to, all of which you never back up with any documentation despite having written a massive document or named any names.   Hey, its just my opinion and we all know what opinions are like .......

[Keldon]

The only thing you need to know about opinion's is everyone is entitled to their own opinion no matter how wrong it is. Ha ha 

[Seth_Erebor]

1 hour ago, EvilMonkee said:

Now that was actually funny.....

 

You do come across as very intelligent and I have no doubt you are but I also get the overriding impression that you are trying subliminally to show off by hinting how much you know and what great ideas that you have and what great meetings or events you have been to, all of which you never back up with any documentation despite having written a massive document or named any names.   Hey, its just my opinion and we all know what opinions are like .......

 

Thanks

 

It's probably an ego thing to counteract the overwhelming realisation that I've bitten off way more than I can chew but the only way out is forwards. 

 

check your inbox btw

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

Interesting thread. I'm quite happy with how things are really. I'd like to see more saturday games, more cqb/urban places in the south east in particular, bfg replicas of real grenades and more innovation generally speaking. I think sites could do interesting stuff - how about a marshall as a 'juggernaut'?

 

Hopefully the TM NGRS becomes more mainstream (most aegs are the same as they were when i started playing) -oh and quicker turn arounds between games! 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:

quicker turn arounds between games

 

Ranted about earlier, will rant again.  I've got the option of doing a "half-day" on Sunday.  11am doors open, noon start, until 4pm.

 

I reckon I'll give it a miss because I suspect it'll go more like:

 

Doors open at 11:30

11:30 -> 12:30 sign in, smoke breaks, chrono, smoke breaks, briefing.

12:30 -> 1:10 game on

1:10 - > 1:30 "10 minute break"

1:30 -> 2:15 game on

2:15 -> 2:45 "Quick 5 minute break"

2:45 -> 3:30 game on

Ah, that's us for the day, lads.

 

Could be wrong, but I don't want to bet good money on getting half-of-a-half-day of play.

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

I'm off to project-x in the new year. They do 10-3 so i hope lunch is short, can't help but feel that they could just skip lunch completely tbh - i like a safe zone burger as much as the next man but snack bars and lucozades will keep people going i reckon. Cheers

[Seth_Erebor]

Why stop for lunch? Eat in the field.

[Tackle]

1 hour ago, Seth_K said:

Why stop for lunch? Eat in the field.

agree, stopping for an hour, or more if the staff are slack in getting players fired up, really takes the impetus out of the day, especially us old 'uns who get all stiff & knackered if we sit down, I'd much rather play through just taking the odd bite between games.

But then im not the site organiser who's prob making a lucrative cash wedge from overpriced burgers & drinks 😉.

[Prisce]

9 hours ago, Seth_K said:

Why stop for lunch? Eat in the field.

Well because it’s law.

 

Marshalls are employees, paid or not, and as such are entitled to 1 hours lunchbreak in 8(?) hours work. 

9 hours ago, Tackle said:

agree, stopping for an hour, or more if the staff are slack in getting players fired up, really takes the impetus out of the day, especially us old 'uns who get all stiff & knackered if we sit down, I'd much rather play through just taking the odd bite between games.

But then im not the site organiser who's prob making a lucrative cash wedge from overpriced burgers & drinks 😉.

 

 

[E21A]

9 hours ago, Tackle said:

agree, stopping for an hour, or more if the staff are slack in getting players fired up, really takes the impetus out of the day, especially us old 'uns who get all stiff & knackered if we sit down, I'd much rather play through just taking the odd bite between games.

But then im not the site organiser who's prob making a lucrative cash wedge from overpriced burgers & drinks 😉.

 

All the sites I’ve been to include lunch in the game fee 🤔

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Prisce said:

Marshalls are employees

 

That's a deep, deep rabbithole to go down.

 

If you consider playing without paying as payment in kind, can marshals claim statutory sick pay, maternity leave and pay, or compensation for unfair dismissal?

[Prisce]

2 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

That's a deep, deep rabbithole to go down.

 

If you consider playing without paying as payment in kind, can marshals claim statutory sick pay, maternity leave and pay, or compensation for unfair dismissal?

 

You say that, but if you were the marshal what would you expect? 

 

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know there is a lot more to it, but being a volunteer myself(not in Airsoft) I know that my volunteer “bosses” have a duty of care towards me, that includes making sure I have the correct Working Time breaks for the time I have worked. 

 

Marshalling should be no different. 

 

 

Admittedly i should have worded it better, they are not employers if they are not paid, they are volunteers, but the same basic rights apply.

 

Now, your right in what you say about SSP, Maternity, and unfair dismissal, they are not entitled to these, because they are volunteers. 

 

However, “working” 6 hours in the day entitled them to at least 1 20minute break with no interruptions.

 

Now, if you have a big site, Marshall’s shall be working over lunch, but a shift pattern for lunch would probably be used, and if there are a lot of Marshall’s, which most big sites have, then this could take the hour to allow all of them to have had the break they require.

[Tackle]

1 hour ago, Prisce said:

Well because it’s law.

 

Marshalls are employees, paid or not, and as such are entitled to 1 hours lunchbreak in 8(?) hours work. 

 

 

Lol, what are we, rufty tufty men that run around trying to inflict pain on others, or are we snowflakes, I've marshaled plenty of times before, it's not hard graft & prob the easiest job to munch on the go.

if a site decided that its clients deserved (or asked for), a full days gaming with minimal interruptions, I'm sure any marshal that started quoting lawful rights to breaks would soon find his weekend "work" drying up.

1 hour ago, E21A said:

 

All the sites I’ve been to include lunch in the game fee 🤔

I've been to plenty that don't, not so many these days though, but generally all the other stuff, bottles/cans & sweets etc are at a premium.

in fact ages back was asked to write a business plan for a site, when I got to the costing of refreshments/grub etc, the mark up was astronomical, definitely a very lucrative addition to green fees.