Boy killed for brandishing a pistol

[BrightCandle]

Nothing about our legal system stops this from occuring in the UK. Indeed it wasn't more than a few months ago when a kid was seen on the high street with an airsoft pistol and was stopped by armed officers at gun point. That time they didn't shoot because he wasn't stupid enough to aim it at them but it could have gone the other way just as easily. Two toning doesn't really change the situation and choice for the police. If it did then the bad guys would all be spray painting their guns orange.

 

But these situations do reenforce for me personally the desire to stop IFs and RIFs getting into the hands of minors, There is definitely an age at which someone understands the implications of carrying something that looks very much like a real gun, and 12 is too young. 18 might arguably be too old in a lot of cases but its definitely a cause for concern that age and understanding is a factor.

 

But as a kid I used to happily play Cowboys and Indians and war games with plastic copy cat guns in the streets and my neighbours would smile and wave and say good morning. Nowadays I fear if my nephew did the same someone would call the armed police. Something in our society went wrong as well when the assumption is a 12 year old with something that looks real is actually real.

 

Edit - So I am conflicted on the whole issue. The current reality doesn't match how I wish the world was and I don't see why its not like that anymore other than irrational fear. I shot air rifles, pistols, .22's and shotguns as a teenager and yet nowadays these are hobbies restricted to specialist gun clubs, and I just don't see how any of that helps.

[Sitting Duck]

As for 'shoot to wound'... no such thing, if you fire a gun at someone you do it with the intention of killing them, someone can die MUCH faster from a hit to the upper thigh than one to the chest.

I was just saying the cops could of considered other options but he made the best decision he thought at the time

with limited info - the possible fake gun wasn't relayed to officers so he took it as real

 

So if they fired as kid reached into his waistband of jeans then they wouldn't have seen an orange tip if still fitted

They were not told it could be a possible fake gun but the dumb ass kid was pointing at people

uhmm soz that is just asking for it

 

but wait a sec - who never took out an old cowboy gun/water pistol that looked a little bit realistic

and waved it in the air - alas the world has changed a bit and gun crime is common reality now

 

Now at the risk of kicking over a massive hornets nest on top....

 

Daily Mail jumps on this as airsoft sport of terrorists/criminals

 

Daily Mirror asks the question would police open fired if was a white 12yr old instead a black kid ???

 

WHOOOAAAAA - soz but I'm sure many lefty's may wonder that plus US are waiting to find out

about a white cop shooting dead a black guy - and family telling all to stay calm & don't riot

 

Soz but this is dumb tragic thing to happen and not the first time it has happened

and won't be the last either

 

Bad crap all round which ever way you look at it and all that

 

EDIT just put the question to a black guy and without question said the would of shot if it was a white 12yr old. Them cops don't take no $hit or chances be said.

 

It was an interesting discussion, yup kid f**ked up at least 3 times, taking gun out, waving it and not complying with armed officer

The officer probably went home to his own 12yr old son and though it is unfair to judge rights/wrongs of parents teaching kids

they can't watch them 101% of time and until my own kids grow up and see how they turn out - only then could I perhaps comment

how other parents bring their kids up

the officer's son or anyone of our kids or members on here could be in a similar situation

Before anybody says no-way - did you not do really slightly dumb a$$ stuff when you was young ??

 

admit I doubt if I was gonna be that dumb to ignore armed police

 

officer could of tazered the kid but a firearm info was given rather than possible fake firearm

 

So due to possible risk to officer and public the possible fake info was not relayed - and rightly so

 

Alas police arrive and they have video footage of kid reaching for a gun so officer fires - end of story

 

officer did not sign up for this situation of killing a kid - he has to live with this and even though he acted

on his best instinct it is nothing to be proud of on his record

Kid's mum is gonna have a nice Thanks Giving as well - the whole thing is f**king tragic mess

 

Plus as the guy at work was saying they in US have had kids of all backgrounds go on recent shooting spree

in schools so he is quite sure the cop would of done the same on a middle class white kid

 

And as the night continued we saw the developments over in Ferguson - which is another black vs cop

more crap

And lets not forget how the riots a while back started over here in UK too

 

Basically - don't F**ck with guns real RIF or 2-tone anywhere outside or you may not live to regret

 

yes I know Ferguson guy was unarmed before anybody starts to correct me but all kind of connected

in a way being shot by armed police

 

A terrible tragic shame and waste like I said - kid is to blame for his dumb a$$ mistakes

but though a 12yr old knows right from wrong they may not fully understand his actions

probably why criminal records are separate for kids/teenagers and adults etc....

but lets not forget that "could" of happened closer to home or even somebody we knew/loved

 

trying to put a slight humour spin on this

 

perhaps should of bought this 5-tone gun

http://www.evike.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=22&products_id=42979

 

a nerf gun looks more lethal and this gundam would of perhaps been safer

plus being SRC it would of been shagged after 3 or 4 skirmishes

(sure it don't stand for Star Rainbow Co but $hitty Rifle Crap)

[Ian_Gere]

I'm afraid that this country has already absorbed so much US culture that if I were to attempt to discuss why this kind of thing is now increasingly more likely to happen in the UK also, few people reading it would even understand what I'm talking about. But ask yourself this, when did it become the norm for British people to think in terms of "the bad guy"? And while you're at it, consider this: if someone shoots the bad guy, what are they? If, for even a millisecond, you thought "the good guy", then there you have it: dualism.

 

If everything we experience leads to a mindset which first always seeks to understand anything in terms of 2 polar opposites, then it will become so fundamental that it will seem to be instinctive, and indeed, since our bodies are symmetrical, to a degree it may well be. However, just as we go through phases of thinking as children, where for example we learn that holding onto things and screaming 'mine' at the top of our lungs does not confer ownership of an object, the process of growing up ought to equip us with at least another pole, that of "the things which i do not know", which is quite a profound realisation, one which ought to be quite mind expanding if considered more than cursorily. By the time we reach teenage then we also ought to understand that, apart from the stuff which we simply do not know about a situation, there are the things which we do not understand, and the things about which, although we understand them, we cannot really form a definite opinion, many of which may be the subject of age old debate, but perhaps more importantly there are also the things concerning which it would be "an ill wind which blew nobody any good"...

 

This is actively demonised in the US as "moral relativism" where the President can actually say, "You're either with us or agin us," and not be laughed out of office for attempting to run foreign policy as if it were in a playground. Personally I find it no surprise that the likes of Henry Ford gave large amounts of money to fund Christian higher education, promoting values which we in the UK would consider fundamentalist - after all, a workforce with a simplistic mindset are much easier to control. All you have to do is successfully create a terrible "bad guy" and then anyone who is against them, no matter how 'bad', has to be "the good guy", because there is no other thing they can be...

 

In this case the cops show up to an incident involving a gun in a playground. The gun should not be in the playground. The person with the gun is therefore the bad guy... The bad guy does not immediately comply with instructions: shoot the bad guy. It's all simple and reasonable, isn't it? Simple. Reasonable. Isn't it?

[BrightCandle]

 

In this case the cops show up to an incident involving a gun in a playground. The gun should not be in the playground. The person with the gun is therefore the bad guy... The bad guy does not immediately comply with instructions: shoot the bad guy. It's all simple and reasonable, isn't it? Simple. Reasonable. Isn't it?

 

Its neither simple nor reasonable nor proportionate or how any of us would want this sort of thing to happen at all. The officers involved were primed with the news that a kid with a gun was threatening people in the park, both by the caller and then by the absence of knowledge that there was reasonable suspicion the gun was fake. Those officers were lied to by omission and this could all be the fault of the caller who knew full well the kid was playing in the park, cooked the story due to their own irritation with it and boom we have a kid dead.

 

The kid caught on the UK streets was told to stick his hands in the air and the first thing he did was pick the gun out of his waistband and put it on the ground. He didn't comply with orders either, but our armed police didn't shoot. But there is a difference between reaching for the gun and starting to aim it at a police officer. We will never know at what moment those officers really chose to shoot or how it could have played out if they had all the information.

 

 

Not as serious but it reminds me of a crime I called 999 on a while back. I see a guy fighting to get away from 2 guys. Initially its a fight and then they have him by the arms, they slam him up against a wall and they are holding him there occasionally hitting him. I am on the 999 call and I can't explain what is going on at all. Then about 45 seconds later 4 guys turn up and surround him on the wall, one of them kicks him hard in the stomach and then they all drag him into a corner shop. What the hell just happened based on what I saw? Was a guy just brutally assaulted by a gang of 6 guys? Or were they something to do with the shop and giving a beat down on a thief? Was the kicking really necessary to apprehend the thief, sure didn't look like it. How you prime the police in your reporting of the facts as you see them and the facts you see can dramatically change the outcome. How the police perceive the information given to them, how the kid has been taught to regard guns, the police, other people, his own experience of the world and the people in it all come together in a few seconds and change lives forever.

 

Do I see a good and a bad guy, I just don't. I see a lot of lives broken on both sides and mistakes were made all around, The kid lost his life due to his mistakes, the question is whether the officers also end up in jail for murder/manslaughter as well. Will the people who fed the misinformation to the officers also be held accountable?

[Albiscuit]

Pretty pointless arguing about gun controls or governing bodies for RIFs as how they kid got it is a moot point.

 

He got it..

 

He used it badly and without care and paid the price.

 

There were clearly mistakes made by all, the police it seemed could have made a different call but the officer on the ground (despite possibly being trigger happy, having a bad day WHATEVER) took the call. He was presented with a kid in a park who had been purposely scaring people with a realistic looking weapon, who he thought was going to draw it. So he shot. Police cannot shoot to wound, a leg/arm shot may not stop someone from returning fire and can cause more harm than good. So he followed his training and killed the kid.

 

Its tragic.

 

But the fault lies with the kid. He should not have taken it outside, should not have scared people with it and SHOULD have followed the instructions from the cops to put his hands on head etc...

 

Such a shame and waste of life, I feel for his family and the cop who took the shot.

[chris555]

it would not matter a jot if the gun was brightly colored. people customize there guns all the time in the usa and plenty of women for example have barbie pink guns ect. the problems here are many a underage child is waving a gun in public then failed to follow police commands probably out of blind panic and being shouted at. if any of us was carrying a gun in Cleveland ohio and following procedure with it in a holster and not taking it out there would not be a problem.

[AK47frizzle]

They don't shoot the arms, which would've made him drop the gun IF it was a real one and they don't shoot the legs which the immense pain would've made him forget about the gun and care for his legs instead; They HAD to shoot the upper body because he is black. American twats.

[Lozart]

They don't shoot the arms, which would've made him drop the gun IF it was a real one and they don't shoot the legs which the immense pain would've made him forget about the gun and care for his legs instead; They HAD to shoot the upper body because he is black. American twats.

 

This contains so much stupid it should carry a health warning.

[Mike636]

 

This contains so much stupid it should carry a health warning.

Agreed.

 

Do you know what is racist. White cop shoots black teenager.

 

That is racist. You never see the opposite when a police officer is killed or assulted.

[Airsoft-Ed]

Was he even black? I don't even know.

[b1n0gHo5t]

Was he even black? I don't even know.

No idea on the kid that was shot but then..another person has been shot recently causing rioting & looting he just happened to be black

[Chock]

Fact is, it's dumb to wave a gun around and public, whether it be real or a toy. At 12 years old, the kid might have been either too young, or simply too dumb to realise the consequences of doing so, and we will probably never know which was the case. So that leaves us with one conclusion really, and that is that if there is any question as to whether the kid was either too young or simply too stupid to know the risks, then there is no room for doubt if this sort of thing is to be prevented, and therefore the sale and possession of RIFs should have an age limit, in order to avoid the possibility that it might be a case of simply being too young to realise the consequences. If this was the way things were, then anyone old enough to wave something about like that, could quite justifiably be shot by the police, because they would have asked for it by being so stupid as to put themselves at risk, knowing that is what they are doing.

 

For all we know, the kid might have been a right little sh*t who richly deserved what he got, or a sweet young kid who was just too naive to know what a risk he was taking, and so it only makes sense to remove the possibility of either being the case, by removing the ability for young kids to legitimately have a RIF. Frankly, I don't blame the police for shooting him, what else were they supposed to do? Wait for him to drop a passer by with a couple of shots before acting? There was no easy choice for them, but it's certainly easy for people to be judgemental about their actions from the comfortable position of hindsight, especially when they aren't the ones called out to respond to a potentially lethal threat and protect the public from harm.

 

A case in point was this Sunday. It was 7am and I was carrying stuff out to my car to go airsofting, and that included my entirely realistic-looking Dragunov Sniper Rifle, and this whilst I was dressed in full USMC camouflage. Now at that time it was dark, so it was unlikely that anyone would see anything of this, but I still waited until there was nobody coming past my house either on foot or in a car before I carried the thing out to my car, because I know that anyone seeing someone dressed in camo gear, carrying a sniper rifle, is justifiably going to crap themselves and call an armed response unit in. And I wouldn't blame them if they did. Our hobby comes with the demand for a good deal of responsibility when we could easily scare the crap out of someone and provoke a tragic occurrence. That is what a RIF can do, and sadly, in this case, is exactly what it did do.

[Airsoft-Ed]

No idea on the kid that was shot but then..another person has been shot recently causing rioting & looting he just happened to be black

Yeah but the protests going on because of that were because he was unarmed and they shot him anyway, and now the officer who killed him is being let off.

 

So I think it's fair that people are kicking off about it. Looks very much like institutional racism, even if it isn't.

[Sitting Duck]

jeez - not trying to turn this into any race row or anything like that.....

 

I was just asking the black guy at work his take on this coz yes the 12 yr old was black

(dunno if cop was white - nor do I care)

and the way things get blown or taken out of context in media n others opinions etc....

 

no blame lies with really anybody else but the poor dumb a$$ kid

 

I admit I took my FireHawk & CO2 pistol into work to in effect "show off" to a few people

one has a firearms license and has brought in his hunting rifle in the past (also showing off)

I had both items in their boxes and in black bin bags in my car but wasn't being ultra stupid

with it - though we fired some shots inside a closed warehouse - but all same

 

Despite all this on here and all what is going on Stateside - none of it will bring the kid/guy back

But hopefully we will ALL learn from this - young or old and try be a little more responsible

[Lozart]

The 12 year old that got shot in Cleveland was black, yes.

 

The situation in Ferguson is a more deeply rooted problem involving a community with a predominantly black poorer population and a predominantly white police force.

[Ian_Gere]

You can't expect anyone to 'shoot to wound', it's just unrealistic. When the decision is taken to shoot, the shooter must aim for centre mass, because that gives the highest probability of a hit, which is not just important in the situation at hand, but so that the bullet does not hit somebody else behind, or after ricocheting off something behind. However the BBC news report stated that the kid reached for the gun in his waistband and was shot. That to me is disturbing. He was not pointing it. There was no imminent danger; there was the imminent danger of imminent danger. Clearly the cop who fired either already had his/her pistol out and trained on the kid, or reacted with lightning reflexes and 'outdrew' the kid. Neither of those situations to my mind sit right. Yes, the kid was in the wrong. Yes, it is phenomenally stupid to take anything which even vaguely looks like a gun out in public in the USA, where the prevalence of real steel makes it that much more difficult for cops to doubt that what they are seeing is a gun, but it's not long ago that British cops would routinely confront armed criminals with nothing more than a truncheon and bravery and kids are stupid...

 

I just cannot accept that the stupidity of a child is a justifiable reason to shoot him. And just because something could be a fuck sight worse than it appears, that to my mind is no justification for behaving as if it is that bad. When you're wearing body armour. Being a cop is a difficult job. It takes more bravery than most of us would wish to have to resort to on a regular basis. Er... well... nobody conscripts cops. When you hear hooves outside, you think horses, even though it could be zebras. When you see a child in a playground with what may be a gun, it probably is a toy. It might not be, true. The time to shoot is when it is out and being raised... but he was the bad guy.

 

And, although what Friz said was oversimplified in the extreme, nonetheless the fact that the kid was black may well have contributed to the situation, whether because the cop was an overt racist who deliberately shoots black people whenever s/he knows s/he can get away with it, or whether simply because s/he assumed that being black, the kid was more likely to have real steel than a white kid of the same age.

[Esoterick]

Sounds like the police are as much to blame as the boy, although the police don't have the excuse of being 12.

[Lozart]

Lets all calm the fuck down shall we?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/25/cleveland-police-video-officer-shooting-boy-clear

 

There has been no mention of race in any report of this case. This implies that either the Police officer was also "of colour" (and let's face it, it's Cleveland - he was probably black) or that is NOT an issue in this case.

 

Secondly, gun crime in Ohio is above the national average. Gun ownership in the US is - as we all know - widespread, so just because a child has a gun in a playground it doesn't automatically equate that it is more likely to be a toy. According to all reports thus far released, while the 911 call said that the gun was "probably a toy" this information was not passed to the officer who then faces a situation that anyone would have to take as worst case. Now, whether it was by panic or by design the boy went to pull the gun out of his waistband when he was told to put his hands up by an armed police officer. As a youth in the US he should have known the likely outcomes of this scenario but putting that aside (he's 12 after all) this was a spectacularly stupid thing to do. Who had taken the orange tip off the gun is irrelevant as the tip of the gun would not have been visible if it was tucked into his waistband. There is video of the encounter that apparently clearly shows what happened (although it hasn't been released to the press) and the officer was less than 10 feet away. If the officer on the scene couldn't tell from that distance if the gun was real or fake then it was clearly sufficiently real looking to convince the officer that it was a real gun.

 

Put yourself in his shoes for a moment - you're in a state with higher than average gun crime faced with someone with what appears to be a real weapon. When asked to put their hands up, that person reaches for the gun. Are you really going to wait and see if he pulls out a real gun and starts shooting?

 

It's a tragic situation that should have been avoided but it stands that if you take a realistic weapon out in public in the US, you need to take responsibility for your actions.

[TheGrover]

+1 to lozarts post. Lets wait for more details before appointing blame or judgement.

 

Does anyone have a link to the video?

[jcheeseright]

Imminent danger of imminent danger is imminent danger. If someone has been told to do something and they instead reach for the gun in their waistband they are going to be shot, a 12 year old with a pistol is just as dangerous as a 21 year old with a pistol.

[Lozart]

Does anyone have a link to the video?

 

1) It's not been released

2) why do you want to see a video of a 12 year old getting shot?

[TheGrover]

1) someone mentioned a video

 

2) i dont, and i doubt anyone wants to see that, but it would stop people arguing over details when they can see what happened leading to the shot

[Lozart]

1) someone mentioned a video

 

2) i dont, and i doubt anyone wants to see that, but it would stop people arguing over details when they can see what happened leading to the shot

 

I mentioned the video and this is the internet - it won't stop anything. If anything it will just lead to more arguments.

[Ian_Gere]

Imminent danger of imminent danger is imminent danger. If someone has been told to do something and they instead reach for the gun in their waistband they are going to be shot, a 12 year old with a pistol is just as dangerous as a 21 year old with a pistol.

I disagree. The moment to pull the trigger is when the 'gun' is being raised, not when the kid reaches for it. It's a split second and yeah, in that situation, where it is a child so, although it could be real steel and just as dangerous no matter his age, it is less likely to be a firearm than were he an adult - enough that waiting that split second longer before pulling the trigger is the right thing to do.

 

As I said above, being a cop is a difficult job. I personally would likely have shit it and fired if he so much as twitched towards drawing what might be a firearm, but I'm not trained to deal with such situations and 1) cops where body armour, 2) putting yourself in harms way is part of the job, and 3) they had a responsibility towards the kid and his family as well as the wider community whom could have been in danger from the child's actions.

 

Whatever the reasons may be, it is also the case that the number of black Americans killed by police is disproportionately higher than white people, compared to the population density. Whatever ethnic group the officer who fired these shots belonged to, that fact goes far enough to suggest institutional racism that we cannot discount it as a factor. I was going to leave this point out, because truthfully I can't remember where I read that statistic, but i suspect that it isn't actually news to anyone, so i believe the point stands even unsupported by a direct source.

[Sitting Duck]

OK - I have not seen video nor do I wish to.....

 

I have been following this a little closer as it is airsoft and have a son a little older

I noticed just right before the ferguson riots started that a US news site said that

the video had been viewed and showed kid reaching for his gun

 

I can't remember the exact site as it was at work 3:00am on works pc

 

Also nearly all my comments are NOT my own opinions or views but mostly what

OTHER peoples comments that were left on both UK & US news sites may I add

 

I don't know what colour the officer is nor do I care

other people mentioned about tazer and the "middle class white kid" in comments

 

Nobody needs to blame the parent/mum - I'm sure she is quite able to do that herself

 

I too will not judge the kids family for as my own son leaves for school & cadets how

would I know he is not taking in an airsoft pistol to "show off" to his mates

(much like I did and perhaps some of us have done in past)

 

Older ones out there - how many times we scorned drink drivers yet how many with

20 or 30yrs driving exp say the was always under the limit - far fetched maybe

but we still could of killed ourselves & others

like I say we have all done some dumb a$$ things I think if we are honest

 

So I am not judging nobody, nor do I really want to blame colour or background ffs

 

it is a very sad terrible and tragic thing to happen for kid, mum/dad, officer even

and airsoft too I suppose

 

We all have a little difference of opinion or views, but lets not judge anybody

but try to ensure this stuff never happens to us or anybody we know & love

 

I hope this will be my last on this terrible matter and hope to get back to my usual

less serious rambling bollox fairly soon

lets ensure we remain sensible and safe - even me